PROFITABILITY AND BDFT OF MILLS

[abatol]

i JUST GOT MY LUCAS MILL DVD. They claim to be able to do 5000 bdft in a day using their big mill . This has been bothering me lately because  1000 bdft a day is not profitable unless your cutting a very expensive species. I would have to pay 120.00 per day to cut 1000 bdft. in wages ,fuel,  not to mention blades and my own wages . I cant buy a 8 to 13000.00 dollars machine and work for 9 dollars per hour. In my area custom sawing goes for 230.00 per 1000
. That wouldnt even be break even . Even sawing my own logs that wouldnt be break even. I figure you need to be able to make 70 to 100.00 per hour when operating any tool in this price range commercially. Its cool to be a hobbyist. or whatever . No offense meant  to any one or any company.
My questions are to the sawyers  What would have to happen for you and a helper to saw 5000bdft in a day?
what do you believe your average bdft per day is?
what type of  machine do you run ?
THANKS

   

[brdmkr]

abatol,

I have a Lucas 618.  I am a hobby sawyer that makes a little here and there.  I set out to saw the lumber for my shop and house while sawing enough for others to pay for the mill.  I wanted to do that in 3 years.  My 3 years is about up and I have paid for the mill and I have my shop built and usable, but it is not 'finished'.   I keep telling myself that I can cut 1000 bdft in a day by myself IF 1) I have 12'  SYP logs (18 - 20" diameter) on a deck ready to roll under the blade, 2) I am cutting 2x material, and 3) I am not stickering.  To date, the best I have ever done in a day is just a hair over 800 bdft, but that had bigger and smaller logs, some 1x material etc.  At the end of that day, I was getting muscle cramps in places I didn't know I had!  With the same setup and a helper, I can do 1200 bdft in day without killing anybody, but at the end of the day, I'll know I have gotten after it.  I generally run the mill alone and I generally can get 500 or so bdft in a day without killing myself. 

There is no doubt that if 2 people really get after it with properly staged and sized logs that it would be POSSIBLE to cut 5000 bdft in a day with the big Lucas, but I wouldn't want to do it more than once.  Secondly, the largest customer I've ever had has been 3000 bdft.  So, 5000 bdft in a day would never have been a factor.  What would it take for ME and a helper to cut 5000 bdft a day?  A different mill and greater demand!   I am not sure that if I had a really souped-up,super hydraulic, 10-bladed, diesel-powered, 3-phase, lumber-making machine, that I would be able to keep it busy in this area.  Maybe I could, maybe not. 

I really think that to make a living at this, you really need to know your market and size your entire outfit appropriately.  Someone here has a signature that says something like to maximize your income, saw less.  I'm not sure what this means in this case, but MY interpretation of this is to understand DEMAND, MARKET more, and saw such that you get the maximum benefit from your sawing labor.  Some folks may do this by sawing volume and have built a business  along these lines.  Others, saw and produce lumber for sale.  Others, saw and dry.  Some saw and then use  the lumber for furniture that is then sold.  Some do a combination.  Each of these approaches define a different type/price mill. 

Again, I don't do this for a living.  I just really enjoy it.   I am sure there will be some to come along with advice that comes from actually doing what you are after.  Those are the guys I would really listen to.  My comments come from my perspective as a hobby sawyer who has thought about what is involved with full-time milling.

Good luck regardless of what you decide.

[Brian_Rhoad]

I have a Breezewood Bandmill. It has hydraulic feed and raise and lower for the saw head. Turning and dogging are manual. It does have a board drag/return. I can easily saw 1000bf in a 8 hours. I just did a custom sawing job cutting 4/4 Poplar, Beech and Cherry. The logs were all 8' long. The biggest log was 12" on the small end. Most of the logs were in the 8"-10" range. Some were 6". I cut over 1300bf in 9 hours by my self. At that rate with nice sized logs 2000bf is possible.
I know you're talking about a swing mill. I don't know too much about their production, but I think 5000bf per day is a little high without at least 4 men.That is a lot of logs, lumber and sawdust to move in one day!
5000bf is 625 bf/hour for 8 hours. I have cut around 500bf an hour with nice Poplar logs, but not for 8 hours straight.

[solodan]

1000 bdft a day is not profitable unless your cutting a very expensive species.

   

   Not true. I usually don't buy logs but on occasion I do. Nothing retails here for less than $1000/mbf, nothing. That would be white fir and the log price delivered to the mill is around $300mbf so that still leaves around $700/mbf in a worst case senario.

 I would have to pay 120.00 per day to cut 1000 bdft. in wages ,fuel,  not to mention blades and my own wages . ......... In my area custom sawing goes for 230.00 per 1000
 That wouldnt even be break even .

  

You're right, It would be a profit of $110 not much, but a profit. Remember as the business owner, your profit is your wage.  If you want $70 to $100/ hr, than charge it or $.60/bf. I would imagine that for $230/mbf the customer is tailing, the logs are all bucked perfectly, they are providing support equipment, and they are doing the cleanup. There is also probably a setup fee ontop of all that. So $230/ mbf could still be profitable in this case.  

My questions are to the sawyers  What would have to happen for you and a helper to saw 5000bdft in a day?

  

What is it you really want?   High production or high profit? With my 827 I can easily cut 1000bf a day by myself. I have cut 600bf an hr before with a helper, but  I don't think I could do this all day everyday. That being said, I think that if you took this mill and set it up stationary had lots of support equipment and a log truck show up everyday with 25" to 35" logs, Than 5mbf a day for 2 guys is a realistic number. The larger your overhead though, the smaller your margins get . In a nich market you could work alone saw less and turn a larger profit. There have been lots of days where I only cut 1 beam and turned a several hundred dollar profit.

Plain and simple buy a sawmill because you want to. If you are just looking for an investment than don't buy one, there are far  easier ways to make a profit.

[DanG]

Abatol, I don't think that 5000 foot per day claim is valid.  I have seen that mill cut at that rate....for a half-hour.  I'm not sure the 2 man crew could have kept it up for an hour, let alone an 8 hour day.   The mill can do it, but the miller can't.

We have members here that are putting that kind of footage on the ground, but not with equipment in the price range you're talking about.  CustomSawyer is doing it with a "portable" mill, but he has a $50,000 mill and at least another $50,000 in support equipment, a seasoned and very dedicated crew behind him, and a constant supply of large logs.  Tom can knock out some pretty impressive numbers with that big Baker he has, IF all the stars happen to line up for him.

On the other hand, with a moderately automated mill, such as a used LT-40 Hydraulic, you shouldn't need any hired help to saw 1000-1500 per day.  With a helper, you'll do better than that.  I could easily do that with my Mobile Dimension mill if I was younger and could hold up my end of the bargain for 8 hours.

I'm glad to see you asking this sort of question at this point in the game.  The fact that a lot of people didn't is in your favor.  The market is loaded with "slightly used" mills right now.

[SwampDonkey]

I live next to a WM guy and I ain't seen it run 8 hours in a day yet.  Now, don't judge saw millers by my neighbor. Nothing they do looks profitable to the casual observer like me, but they still drive new pickups and vans.  One of the unsolved mysteries.

[Ron Wenrich]

I used to get that kind of volume on an old handset circle mill.  I had a 3 man crew, an edger, and a ready supply of logs.  We didn't have much automation, but we did have gravity rollers, and a way to turn logs and move lumber. 

To figure out your profit, you can use this formula.  Profit = lumber price - log price - manufacturing costs. 

The way bigger mills make money is by lowering their mfg costs.  Usually, they don't have too much say in lumber or log prices due to markets.  So, if you saw more expensive species, your log prices often rise accordingly.  Building a business plan on free logs doesn't work.  I've seen lots of mills go bust due to log supple.

So, you need to have a really sharp pencil to make those things work on a full time basis.  If fulltime is your goal, I'd be looking at several different types of operations before I'd be making any decisions. 

$13,000 is not a very high investment.  I think $70-100/hr seems to be a little high.  At that rate, contract truckers would need 10 times that much for their trucks, since the investment is higher.  Investment is part of the price, not the driving factor.

[ladylake]

70 to 100 an hour seems way high for a $15000 machine that operates fairly cheap. It's not like running a truck or big macine that uses 10 gallons a hour and cost $125000. My little 28HP diesel uses 1/2 gal hr a might use up 1 $15 blade in a 2500 bf day. Other operating cost are pretty low.   Steve

[Captain]

IN order to reach the 5000BF in a day number, you'll need some motivated help and some other equipment to move materials.  We've done it twice with our WPF, once 5600BF in 7.5 hours that was mostly 2x8 and 2x6 Eastern White Pine, 10-12 feet long from logs about 20" in diameter.  THAT was a tiring day.   On the other hand, I've setup, sawn 860BF, and broken down in 2.5 hours before with only 1 person to help and no support equipment, with average size 14" logs.

Our average size jobs on the road are about 1500BF.  Some are more.  On the road with NO support equipment and only one helper, 2500 feet is my target cutting 1x materials.  That's a full 8 hours of work, and I'm showing it at the end.  Machines to handle the logs and stacks of materials are a huge plus.

Captain

[bandmiller2]

These small mills be it swing or band tie in well with outher ventures such as if you do tree work,clear land,build structures,or do woodworking.It is being done, but its tough for a small mill to support one family let alone two or three.Their best roll is to add to income and not be the sole provider.You need a nitch market or sell a finished product such as tool houses,special flooring boat timbers est.

[snowman]

I love my little manual sawmill. It's perhaps the best investment I ever made. I've built my barn, a home for my mill that is way overkill but I like it and I have most of the lumber and beams cut for a house I'm building. Also I have my own timber land which makes all this lumber basically free.Now for the bad news.These sawmill adds that say you can cut a certain amount of feet an hour remind me of the truck driving adds that say you can drive a certain amount of miles a day.Pure BS! Yes a mill is capable of cutting these high numbers if you don't stack lumber, move slabs, shovel sawdust, sharpen blades , clean airfilters lube your tractor and mill,fuel up, check oil,etc etc etc.Yes you can get 500 miles a day in your truck if you don't get loaded, unloaded, hit traffic, bad weather etc etc etc.But for personel use,if you have your own timber, buy a sawmill!

[abatol]

THANKS FOR ALL THE POSITIVE INPUT
i CHARGE 75.00 FOR 3 ROOMS  of carpet cleaning which takes 45 minutes to a hour  with a truckmount . a truckmount costs between 6500 and 90000 new .Lets just say I have ten thousand invested including the van . I could give many examples including  a owner operator trucker.  But if you just use the wages and expense model above you will see the challenge very clearly . $9.00 per hour x 8 hours + $24.00 per 8hr day in fuel + blade wear+ travel expenses + amortization and replacement of purchase(s).  is well over $100.00 per operational day. so whats left is 9 to 12 dollars per hr. for your wages based upon cutting for hire or cutting your own framing lumber.. You would have to be able to do 2000 bdft a day with a helper to be profitable. syp Lumber @ the store is .$.25 to .47 a cubic bdft.
500  bdft x .47 = $235.00 w/a free log ,thats hobby sawing.
 

[Tom]

Custom sawing isn't the kind of job a fellow gets into to put is kids through college.  There are acceptions, but the higher dollar wages come from the man who uses it as a stepping stone and grows a commercial mill  with production in the many thousands of Board feet every day, with a competent crew, an inventory and a good supply of logs.

Most custom sawyers are cutting 1000 to 2000 feet per day.  Most custom sawing jobs are in the range of 1500 feet.  A sawyer with a reputation may keep relatively busy sawing barns and other agricultural buildings.  Still, it's not as if every waking moment is spent earning profit.

To approach a business plan with the product being 2x4 studs and competeing with the lumber yard is doomed for failure.  You will never compete with a Mega Board Foot Production Mill.  Your niche will be where the owner wants his log sawed, or, where you can produce a product that the lumberyard doesn't carry. 

Carrying the business on $230 a thousand is do-able.  It's done by many existing operations  who have been careful about matching their equipment to their load.  You have to be careful about judging  these businesses as "hobby" mills because the operators are darned proud of them.  Their profit margins may not have to be as large as yours, but they are being successful in their minds.

I have had days when I traveled and set up 3 times in a day to get 1500 feet.  It's part of building a business.  I have also had days when I was consistantly sawing two and three thousand feet a day.  Your profit is directly attributable to your effeciency, log availability and off-bearers.  Any day that I could go home with $100 in my pocket that I didn't have before, is a good day.  That is where I came up with my minimum.

1500 board feet in a day isn't a bad assumption.  Sawing 1500 board feet every day might be.  What are you going to do to assure 1500 board feet a day?

If you sawed 1500 bf for  300 days a year, that's 450,000 board feet of lumber.  Not shabby.  At $230 a thousand that's a gross of $103,500.   Now, if you are only going to work 5 days a week you'll have to figure on 260 days  instead of 300.  That's still over $90,000.  Can you keep your mill that busy? 

[beav39]

i like what tom has to say profit can be found in 230 per thou. thia is what i charge,i saw alone and can manage between 1500 and 2000 bdft a day   depending on the size of the logs.i saw with a woodmizer lt40 hydraulic i have had a helper and we have sawn 3200bdft in an 9hr day this of course was huge pine all being sawn into 1by 12 by 16 feetlong.log suppy and your idea of how much you need to make is ultamitly what you need to look at

[crtreedude]

The best idea is to always make sure you are figuring in how fast you can get supply and how quick you can sell. You are a middleman so you are at risk at both ends - supply and demand. If the supply dries up, you are hurt, if the demand dries up - you also are hurt.

If you are in an area with a very good supply and a good demand - you should do okay if you know how to budget your money. It will help tremendously if you pay for everything cash so that you aren't working for the bank. I can't stress this enough.

I like to take whatever numbers I am told and cut them in half - this seems to be about right. If you are running all the time and have nothing to do to prepare - sure, you can cut a lot of wood. But, life isn't like that in reality.

[abatol]

Well no one should take exception to this discusion or offense . the purpose is to determine what's needed to be profitable through tool selection and effenciency everytime you cut. We are using two of the basic sawing models 'for hire' and for personal framing sawing. This does not include best case or jobs from the depths of hell scenarios. I like many people here have many tools . I used a example of one not as profitability of that tool or business. Cuz I don't make a great profit at 75 per3 rooms  . I have to make payroll & expenses out of that money too which leaves me with little .It would be better if I could do it all myself but I can't. I mentioned that justify that if you spend  10k you should be able to make $100 per hour with it and I have many examples of that with a much smaller investment.
I don't intend to saw everyday & I don't intend to saw for hire unless I can afford a machine that will allow me to cut 2500 to 3000 per day safely. I ve learned a lot  through your responses .  In my are you can't build using rough cut lumber unless  you have it dried and grade stamped.. Which is another thread . So naturally I have to be careful with this investment. I want to cut for myself  mostly but don't want to  work all day to save 20 bucks on 2x8"s

[Tom]

I think that, once you cut your first log, you will find the reason for owning a sawmill.  It isn't all profit oriented for most of us.   I cut for hire and find that I worry about profit less than getting the wood sawed.   Like many service jobs, it's a labor of love.   That's why garages are full of sawmills that were purchased for their original use and never resold.

It's not the same as watching someone saw.  If you get the chance to put your hands on a friends saw and saw a log or two, you will know better how much you really want a sawmill.

Money-wise, there are ways of making money, selling wood, that far outdistance the hourly wages earned in a Service business, sawing for customers.   Cutting burls, marketing turning wood, wood for musical instruments, highly ornamental woods for furniture makers, etc., will draw much higher dollars.  You also may not need a high production machine to produce them.

If you enter the service industry, much like your carpet cleaning, you will have to produce many pieces fairly fast and consistantly to make a living.  Piece work has always been a tough row to hoe, but it is rewarding.

Member Steve is an example of someone selling ornamental wood.  I think his website is www.curlykoa.com

[brdmkr]

Tom is right (as usual).  Buy a sawmill because you love to saw, not to make a living.  If you wind up making a living, that is great.  I love to saw, but I know I won't do this for a living.  Fortunately for me, I like what I do for a living too. 

[solodan]

I agree, buy a sawmill because you want to saw lumber. I have to disagree with those stating running a sawmill should not warrant $100/hr though. We all know that we have alot more money invested in our whole operations than the $15k you paid for the mill. However $100/hr is easy to ask for out here. You can't buy any type of lumber for $.25bf retail or wholesale. So even if I were cutting 2x8's for myself, I would only need to cut about 3.5 boards an hour to save myself $100/hr.   I think that $100/ hr may be steep for your area though, Esspecially if you really can buy lumber for $.25/bf. So is operating a sawmill worth $100/hr? Probably not everywhere but, remember a plumber makes about $110/hr around here, but an acre of land in a cheap part of California can be had for as little as $100k.   I could not live out here for $9 an/hr but maybe in your area I could. Funny thing is you can get your carpets cleaned out here for around $100 for 3 rooms.    

[SwampDonkey]

Can't buy lumber that cheap here. You might be confusing lumber with low grade logs?