What Ethanol Free gas for saw?

[Jim Spencer]

Is there an ethanol free gasoline available?  I always use High octane but cannot seem to find gas with no alcohol.   

[beenthere]

Jim
I can still buy ethanol free gas at our local Mobil station. A few cents higher, but get 1-2 more mpg so figure it is worth it. I use the premium for chainsaw gas mix.

[sharp edge]

I.m not going to worry about ethanol in gas. I think its a little better for the lungs.  If I read in paper that loggers are standing in fount of trees as they fall    then I would say to much alcohol in gas and start looking for ethanol free gas.
SE

[logwalker]

In some areas it is mandated that the stations have to sell oxygenated fuel in the winter months. You might have to go a long way to find non-oxy fuel. Buy in fall before this happens and use stabilizer and hold out till spring.

[Cut4fun]

Very costly, but for the homeowner that stores their saws awhile between uses or storms.  Pre-mix  link    http://50fuel.com/

[pineywoods]

Avgas from your local small airport.  Alcohol is an absolute no-no

[olyman]

Avgas from your local small airport.  Alcohol is an absolute no-no

  EXPOUND on this please------

[pineywoods]

The feds control the specs for aviation fuel, NOT the states or locals. True avgas is 100 octane with  small amount of lead. commonly known s 100LowLead. Some airports may stock and sell automotive gas to be used in some older aircraft, but it can't contain alcohol. Alcohol corrodes the aluminum fuel tanks and lines. Plus it tends to absorb water, which will freeze at high altitudes even in summer weather. Either situation could ruin your whole day.

[z71mike]

pineywoods - what is the going rate for some of this liquid gold?  I imagine it can't be cheap

[arojay]

Don't know about your neck of the woods, but I am buying snowmachine race gas, leaded, no alchohol and minimum 111ron.  Some of our unleaded regular has alchohol, some not.  This is in Canada.  I blend the two down to about 94ron.  Maybe you can buy the same.  I do this because 'fresh' premium gas is just not available anymore.

[John Mc]

The feds control the specs for aviation fuel, NOT the states or locals. True avgas is 100 octane with  small amount of lead. commonly known s 100LowLead. Some airports may stock and sell automotive gas to be used in some older aircraft, but it can't contain alcohol. Alcohol corrodes the aluminum fuel tanks and lines. Plus it tends to absorb water, which will freeze at high altitudes even in summer weather. Either situation could ruin your whole day.

Avgas is guaranteed to have no alcohol, but it's not true that it has "a small amount of lead". Regular 100 Avgas is no longer available. 100 LL (100 octane low lead) is only "low lead" in comparison to the old standard 100 octane avgas. It actually has about 3+ times the lead of the old leaded auto fuel.

If you have a catalytic muffler on your saw, this will trash it. Even if you don't have a catalytic muffler, expect your saw to run much dirtier, and lead deposits may accumulate in the combustion chamber and on valves. Even some smaller aircraft engines which were originally designed to run on the old 80 octane leaded Avgas (roughly similar to the lead levels in old auto gas) choke on the lead in 100 LL. They end up with fouled sparkplugs and lead deposits in various places throughout the engine. In aircraft, the hotter the engine runs, the less of a problem this tends to be (idling for extended periods is a real killer). Proper mixture adjustment helps as well.

I'm curious if anyone has actually run 100 LL in their chainsaw. I'm debating trying it in mine, but would like to hear from someone who has run it regularly in their saw. I'm also curious of the higher octane can cause problems. I've heard higher octane can burn hotter (100 LL typically runs about 105+ octane, compared to the 93 octane I've been running in my saws).

How about it, has anyone run enough of this stuff through thei saws to chime in with some real-world experience? I'm a pilot, and have access to 100 LL. I'm considering it as an alternative to autogas, now that everywhere I look in Vermont seems to have 10% ethanol (and I'm told that the premium is more likely to have more ethanol than regular).

BTW... going rate for 100 LL in my area is well over $5/gallon (over $6/gal in some places for full serve).

John Mc

[Al_Smith]

 This av gas stuff and no ethonal fuel can get as much debated as what type oil to use for mix and at what ratio .

Certain high populated areas of the counrty have been mandated as to the use of ethonal mix fuels  and some have not .Just depends on where you live .

I doubt seriously if running av gas in a regular old chainsaw would show any more affect than just good old high test .Of course ten thousand people would argue against that statement but such is the internet .

[Dale Hatfield]

I run it a few years ago  prolly 10 now .  I asked the other trainer what was hin his saws as the smell had give me a headache .  Run just like my saws but with a stink. and the fuel stayed good.

[John Mc]

I run it a few years ago  prolly 10 now .  I asked the other trainer what was hin his saws as the smell had give me a headache .  Run just like my saws but with a stink. and the fuel stayed good.

That's one of the big advantages of avgas... the shelf life is a LOT longer than autogas, so you don't end up getting gum or varnish in your carb if it sits for a while.

John Mc

[Mad Professor]

pineywoods - what is the going rate for some of this liquid gold?  I imagine it can't be cheap

I have run 100LL in my saws, bikes and cars (old chevy with 12:1 comp.) and it runs great.  I just finished rebuild on a 038M last month and went to airport for
fuel, 100LL was $4.44.  Corn fed pump premium was $3.80 at the time.  The 100LL will store much better, not absorb water, or rot fuel lines, aluminum and carb parts like pump fuel with alcohol.

BTW, pump premium was up to $4.16 today..........

[John Mc]

Another source of ethanol free gas which may be a bit cheaper than 100 LL Avgas:

Some states which mandate ethanol have an exemption for "auto" gas for marine or aviation use. (Seems the ethanol eats the fiberglass fuel tanks in many boats.) So it's worth a swing by a marina to check out what they have in stock. Some of the smaller airports also stock "auto" gas for use in aircraft. It's usually premium, and if they are doing their job right, is ethanol-free. It's a bit of a hassle to arrange to get this ethanol-free stuff in a state where all the auto gas has ethanol, but it's worth checking into. This premium "auto" gas at an airport is usually cheaper than 100 LL, but generally more expensive than what you'd pay at a gas station.

John Mc

[D._Frederick]

Here in NW Oregon, I could get alcohol regular during the summer, so have stockpiled a few gallons. The tech. at the local saw shop is mixing  3quarts regular to 1quarts LL100, I have been running this with my husqvarna equip with no carburator problems. It keeps from having to re-build the carburators every year. This tech, said he has run straight LL100 and found that the engines run hotter and have lead build-up on the spark plug tips.

[John Mc]

Here in NW Oregon, I could get alcohol regular during the summer, so have stockpiled a few gallons.

Remember, shelf life is limited on auto gas.

The tech. at the local saw shop is mixing  3quarts regular to 1quarts LL100, I have been running this with my husqvarna equip with no carburator problems. It keeps from having to re-build the carburators every year.

Good to hear it's working well. That should keep the lead concentration down to manageable levels (in the ballpark of the old leaded car gas). I'll have to give it a try in my saws. I assume you have non-catalytic mufflers on your saws?

This tech, said he has run straight LL100 and found that the engines run hotter and have lead build-up on the spark plug tips.

There is an additive, know as TCP, that some pilots add to the fuel of aircraft engines which are more prone to lead fouling. It's pretty nasty stuff as far as health/environment go, and one more thing to remember, so I'm not planning on messing with it.

John Mc

[D._Frederick]

Some how I dropped the  "alcohol free regular" from my last posting.

I find that if I store gasoline in a sealed metal container in a cool place that it does not degrade as fast.

I wonder if a person can get the alcohol out of the fuel my using a large plastic jug that are used for water coolers and adding a quart of water, then pouring in a couple gallon of alcohol gas in the jug. Then shake the hell out of it and let the water settle to the bottom. A person should be able to siphon the good gas off. ??

[Al_Smith]

 No sir,actually you would just have watery gasoline .

Oh my,you folks must all me using racing engines or somthing judging by the comments and pardnoia of mixed gasoline .

Now I attempt to run only non blended gasoline in my saws but it's not always possible,hasn't hurt them yet .I've got saws that are older than most people that post on these internet sites ,still running great .

Where pray tell did all this talk come from about running aviation gasoline .Fine I suppose if you plan on cutting above  10,000 feet elevation but trust me there aren't many trees up there .That is of course unless all those saws everybody is concerned about have been "enhanced " a tad bit  are all at about 12.5 to 1 compression ratio .

While on my little rant I've heard of people attempting to run racing fuel,acetone and all kinds of rocket fuel in a chainsaw .Whatever pray tell for? I doubt they would run any better unless you just want to see how long they go before they melt a piston or sieze the crank or just plain blow up . That said,I think it's time for a reality check .

[D._Frederick]

Al,

Have you ever seen the fuel filters with the little glass bowl, and have seen water in the bottom of the bowl? This water has come out of the gas. and the gas is floating on top of the water.

It sound to me if your saws are so old, they have a float carburators and the new formula of gas won't bother them.

[John Mc]

I wonder if a person can get the alcohol out of the fuel my using a large plastic jug that are used for water coolers and adding a quart of water, then pouring in a couple gallon of alcohol gas in the jug. Then shake the hell out of it and let the water settle to the bottom. A person should be able to siphon the good gas off. ??

Yes, you can do that, in theory. That's the basis for a test that is used to check autogas for alcohol content before fueling a plane. Take about 10 parts of the gas, add one part water, and shake. Let it settle. If what appears to be water in the bottom is greater than before, you have alcohol in the gas. It just combined with the water and settled out. Unfortunately, the alcohol is where part of that mix's octane rating came from. Once it drops out, you have significantly lower octane rating... not good for a chainsaw.

I don't generally run Autogas in my Cessna 172, but have done so on occasion. I always do this test before adding the fuel to the tanks. I don't need it eating up my aluminum tanks, or messing with fuel hoses or O-rings. That sort of thing can ruin your whole day.

John Mc

[John Mc]

Oh my,you folks must all me using racing engines or somthing judging by the comments and paranoia of mixed gasoline .

Now I attempt to run only non blended gasoline in my saws but it's not always possible,hasn't hurt them yet .I've got saws that are older than most people that post on these internet sites ,still running great .

If you run ethanol mix gas while it's still fresh, you may never have a problem. The problem is that ethanol is hygroscopic - it attracts water, and can even pull it in out of the moisture in the air. If the moisture does get into the fuel, it will mix with the ethanol and settle out. If this is in your saw's fuel tank, it will suck in a slug of the alcohol water mix. If your luck, the saw will just sputter or die. If you're unlucky, you've just spun your saw with no engine lubrication. Enough of that, and you've toasted your engine. Not as big a deal on a four stroke engine, since the fuel mix isn't what lubricates the engine. (I've heard new formulations of ethanol mix are supposed to be a bit better for this, but I can't swear to that.)

I've also heard that the ethanol mix can break down the fuel-oil mix more quickly, but I haven't verified that.

At any rate, if you use it up quickly, it's probably not a huge issue. But I generally don't use a gallon in one shot... it tends to sit for a bit. Thus my concern about using ethanol mix gas.

John Mc

[D._Frederick]

John Mc

My understanding of the modern 2 cycle engine is the carburation system. It uses a diaphram to meter fuel into the combustion chamber. Fuel with alochol tends to react with the diaphram effecting the way it flexes, reducing the fuel to the engine. I have been told that the mfg's have not been able to get material that will work with both pure gas and with alcohol fuel.

[Al_Smith]

  Well now that I've got you all wound up my job is done .

Sure,if you only use about a gallon of saw gas a year  you are going to have problems but you would with straight gasoline also . Two gallons during the off season last me about a month.If I'm cutting heavy it lasts part of a day.

Of course I know how a sediment bowl works but you can't suck the ethonal out of gasoline by adding water to it .--and yes I think one of my antique Homelites does have a bowl on it .I believe it might have came over on the Mayflower  back in the days of iron men and wooden ships .That thing is kind of a boat anchor now but when I get the time I'll make it putt again .

You can run av gas,cam 2 ,rocket fuel whatever .They really have no better affect on a stock saw than good old fashion high test gasoline .Don't take my word for it though,go ahead and try it,let us know how it comes out .

[John Mc]

I don't think anyone on this thread was suggesting using 100 LL as a means to get more power/performance out of their saws... it was purely a means of avoiding ethanol related problems.

If you can get ethanol laced gas to last you a month, you are doing far better than I am. I've had it break down in as little as 10 days. It's enough of a problem that the fuel stabilizer people are working on new formulations to try to help. I know Stabil has one out designed for use with ethanol/gas mix. I haven't tried it yet, though.

John Mc

[Al_Smith]

 Oh I won't argue the point that ethonal is a little hard on the carb innerds. I just recently rebuilt a carb on a 181 Huskey that had a diaphragm that was hard as a rock . However it was more due to it setting idle for several years  with a carb full of fuel.Not my saw by the way but I'm guilty of not running them dry also .

If you do that on a regular bassis you become very good at rebuilding carbs .

Even with the modern formulation of todays gasoline you have problems ,with or without the ethonal .

Just so you all don't fell like chainsaw owners are the only one affected by this, it's also hard on small engine carbs like a lawnmower . Then again if you mowed your lawn once a week ,year round you wouldn't have a problem . Kind hard to do in my neck of the woods.It kinda snows a little in the winter time ya know .

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

... Then again if you mowed your lawn once a week ,year round you wouldn't have a problem . Kind hard to do in my neck of the woods.It kinda snows a little in the winter time ya know .

You could rig an adapter that'd turn the lawnmower into a snowblower and keep on chugging along...

[Mad Professor]

Well now that I've got you all wound up my job is done .

Sure,if you only use about a gallon of saw gas a year  you are going to have problems but you would with straight gasoline also . Two gallons during the off season last me about a month.If I'm cutting heavy it lasts part of a day.

Of course I know how a sediment bowl works but you can't suck the ethonal out of gasoline by adding water to it .--and yes I think one of my antique Homelites does have a bowl on it .I believe it might have came over on the Mayflower  back in the days of iron men and wooden ships .That thing is kind of a boat anchor now but when I get the time I'll make it putt again .

You can run av gas,cam 2 ,rocket fuel whatever .They really have no better affect on a stock saw than good old fashion high test gasoline .Don't take my word for it though,go ahead and try it,let us know how it comes out .

Hi Al,

You can extract ethanol from gasoline using water.  2-3 extractions will remove it all but the formulation of the gas will be different without the alcohol as mentioned above.  Nearly all C1-C4 alcohols are miscible (soluble in all proportions) in water and are readily extracted, chemists do this using a device called a separatory funnel.  A drying agent (i.e. anhydrous sodium sulfate) can then be used to remove the last traces of water followed by gravity filtration of the extract. You will end up with very dry fuel with no alcohol, the octane rating will be ??

IMHO , I prefer just using AV gas and paying ca. 60-100 cents more per gallon for better fuel that will not eat the rubber parts in my engines.

Best,  MP

[Al_Smith]

 Well o.k. run av gas .Now while you are on this subject of rubber deteriation figure some simple way to stop the av mounts on a Stihl from being eaten up by the bar oil .-- and no I'm not going to use veggie oil either .

[zopi]

Gotta saw I'm runnin' on jet fuel...but then it has a gas turbine engine out of a tomahawk missille on board...cuts fast..

anybody think i oughta be usin' synthetic oil in it?