Is Live Oak to tough to cut?

[gharlan]

 I discovered a road expansion the other day and have been watching and waiting for a few large trees to be shoved out. They took them down on Tuesday and I went and procured them for the mill. Here is a pic with one on the trailer.
 
for reference the pipe the winch is mounted on top of is four feet tall.
This morning I halved one with the chainsaw then quartered one half. Here is the first quarter on the mill.
 
I worked all day and managed to cut up half the log into lumber. Here is a pic as it came off the saw.
 
Anyway my days work yielded about 150 board feet of  lumber. I started cutting 4/4 but the band usage was killing me so I switched to 6/4's for the last. I used three  new bands to saw this half. I wasted a lot of lumber as I was slabbing heavy to avoid any cuts I did not have to make. By the second cut the bands were making very wavy lumber. I had to feed slowly to produce anything worth saving. The pitch was also a major problem as nothing I tried would keep it off. The entry side looked like ants were building mounds down the cut.
When I bought this little mill last spring I called and ordered 20 bands from Menominee. I think they were the Simmonds, but I can not be sure now. I did not know enough at the time to ask about hook and set and they did not ask either. All the lumber I have found to cut, has been oak. Up till now I have be able to get about 150 bd ft from a band. But this 50 feet per band is a bit much. As you can see from the pic the lumber is really nothing special, just hard.
 I guess my question after all this rambling is- Will I get better results from a band with say 4 degree hook. I went to the Wood-Mizer site and shopped for bands online. For extreme hardwood in a frozen state they say 10 degree, but yet the sell 4's too. I think the ones I am using are 14 the best I can measure. Any Ideas?? Who knows how this stuff will dry but at least the logs were straight for Texas live oak.  Thanks Gary

[LeeB]

I hate to say it , but I told you so. 50bf/blade is about right. How many horses you got pushing those blades? it takes a few more to push the 4* blades. The 9* might be a little better for you. The pitch build up is tough. Run lots of water to keep the blade cool. Most of it is from the blade overheating which also causes it to dull faster. Besides every thing else, the stuff is just down right hard. It is the densest wood in the U.S.
 Now, as for drying, live oak is hard to dry without twist, checking and other degrade. Keep it well shaded and dry very slowly. Once you get it dried be ready to cough up some chips for new blades for your woodworking equip and or new equip. It gets even harder as it dries.

[Tom]

Yep, Lee's right.  That is some hard stuff.  I will cut it for someone if they really want it.  Usually one time is enough for them.  It eats up shop tools too.  One guy practically destroyed his planner and couldn't even get carbide knives to stay sharp.  "I told you so" is  heard pretty commonly around Live Oak.

It is beautiful wood, but is hard, heavy and checks.   It makes pretty table tops, but women don't move them often.  I have sawn it most frequently for "Tops" and trailer decking.  It will rot but the track vehicles don't tear it up too bad.

[LeeB]

Having said all that I have a couple thou bf that I intend to floor my basement with. I just trying to get a little more use outa my tools before I trash them and have to by new.

[ErikC]

   I don't know if the live oak we have here in CA is the same exact species or not, but it is the hardest thing there is here in these woods. No one will hardly cut it for firewood or lumber, it is so hard to saw & split. I do like the 12 hour fire though!
   I have made several beautiful knife handles with it, the grain seems curly. I think the handles are tougher than the blades. They make a tough resilient handle for peavy or cant hooks. But there is no joy in working that wood, so you rarely see it. Too bad cause it is pretty..


Erik

[gharlan]

I have a 20 horse Honda on the Norwood. It really does not have any trouble with it. The bands are the problem they keep tying to do back flips in the cut but the motor does not bog a bit, I think it wants to see the back flips.

It just kills my soul to see these trees go to waste. I have procured three so far with a few 20ish inchers still there. I need to do some repair on the winch mount first though. That #9,000 log reveled a few weaknesses in it.

I have stacked the lumber in the shop against a wall for now to try to slow the drying for a while. I should be able to keep a close eye on it there. After I get it all cut or quit it I will weigh it down with several pallets of granite tile.

If I can find some 4 degree bands do you think it will produce a more respectable footage total?? Would the 9 do just as well?

I had a man stop and ask me if I wanted another one while loading this one. He had one cut down last year and has been trying to burn it since then. So far he has it nicely charred.

I am hoping I will not have to plane this lumber. I hope I can put a 24 grit belt on the sander and start there. Of course those belts are about $50 apiece so we shall see.  Thanks Gary

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I do love the sort of serpentine look of quartersawn Live Oak.

It's the perfect victim for a swingblade with carbide.

Phil L.

[LeeB]

I never tried the 4* blades myself, but they might work. The only problem I can see is feed rate with the 4*. Lower feed rate = more heat. The 20 hp might be a little low for the 4*. Ask WM about that. I would pass on the charred log. That stuff is hard enough green. If nothing else it is the best firewood I've ever burned. I sure do miss it for that.
 I see Phil posted while I was typing. A swingblade would probably do well. Carbide would definately help.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Homey eats them things for breakfast 

 

  We use Munksforsager blades with 10° hook. LOTS of water. 

[ErikC]

 I haven't cut any with the 20 hp honda, but I did with the 13hp, and although I went slower than normal, the swing mill cut it ok. Strait and accurate. You could tell it was no normal wood  though. My tailer was not happy about the weight of those boards either. I don't know what that customer did with it, but he had a few hundred board feet.

Erik

[brdmkr]

I'm with Phil.  I have only cut one live oak log, but it was not any big deal with the swinger.  I thought it was considerably easier to cut than any pecan that I have sawn.  The lumber was stunning, but in a bad way.  It had grain and swirls like I have never seen before.  HOWEVER, drying was also shocking.  It warped, cupped, twisted, cracked, and everything else that could go wrong.  I will have to cut everything very short to have anything useful. 

I would like to have a floor in our house made of LO, but given the drying difficulties it will take a heap of sawing to have enough for just a moderate sized room.  Oh, it is HARD to machine.

[New Brunswick]

   Is live oak different that red oak? I have cut red oak with a 20 hp onan and a 10 * blade and it cut like butter, it sawed extremely easy, and it had been sitting for about a year.

[brdmkr]

As I understand it, live oak is really in a group by itself.  Some group it in with white oaks, but it really differs from both.  I thought the log I sawed cut like butter as well, but it dried like a propeller    My experience is with a swingblade and that may make a difference.  To date, pecan has been the most difficult to cut.

[thecfarm]

I never heard of Live oak until I got on here.MUST be differant than the Red oak we are use to seeing New Brunswick.I never heard of problems like that with it.Not that it matters,but White oak does not grow around here.Seems like it's down by the coast more.

[New Brunswick]

  For me the toughest to mill has been hornbeam (Carpinus Caroliniana) also known as iron wood.(and their not kidding)

[LeeB]

Most definately a different critter than red oak.

[Dodgy Loner]

Is live oak different that red oak? I have cut red oak with a 20 hp onan and a 10 * blade and it cut like butter, it sawed extremely easy, and it had been sitting for about a year.

Live Oak
Density: 0.98 g/cm²
Stiffness: 1381 kg/mm²

Red Oak
Density: 0.67 g/cm²
Stiffness: 1153 kg/mm²

White Oak
Density: 0.71 g/cm²
Stiffness:  1251 kg/mm²

[rfalk]

Live oak is one of the most durable woods available, on par with, if not more durable than, black locust and osage orange. In fact, Old Ironsides, the US Navy's oldest commissioned ship (1797) is framed with live oak.  If I got live oak to saw, I would investigate the wood boat building world (check Wooden Boat magazine). My guess is boat builders would pay a premium for properly sized timbers, knees, or other wood boat parts as this wood is pretty scarce.

Bob Falk
USDA Forest Products Lab

[gharlan]

As a follow up I called Wood-Mizer and ordered a box of 4 degree bands today.  Maybe by the end of next week I will have a report of my progress. I guess for now I will hold off milling any more till I get the new bands. I guess since I am the optimistic type I will go and acquire a few more logs this weekend.

rfalk; I had never thought of doing anything with this lumber but using it in projects. But I will go and look at some boat mags and see. It would not hurt to find a need for some of this wood to offset the cost of my personal stash. So thank you for the lead---Gary

[ely]

i think those logs look like post oak that we have here, except the post oak saws very easy, but it does turn into propellers if you arent careful. the down side is it sometimes turns into propellers if you are careful.

[LeeB]

looks good ole Central Texas Live oak to me. Hard hard stuff. GAry, if you can debark it it will help some with the blade life, although I also used the bark to clean off the sap.

[gharlan]

LeeB  I debarked in the areas where it had any dirt on it. I did notice that an area of bark cleaned up the blade nicely in the cut. Blade life really did not matter though as some were only used after a cant was being cut. I took a 6 gallon fuel jug today and drilled a hole in the bottom, inserted a car valve stem through the hole, attached a sink 3/8 compression angle stop on the stem, and a hose from there to the lube stem on the blade. Works greet in practice today so now I am ready to be able to really run some lube on the blade when I get back to cutting. I hope 6 gallons will make at least a cut or two.

ely  We have a lot of post oak here also. It is mostly what I have found to cut up to now. A great deal of what I cut has been keeping me warm in the shop this winter. Most has been to twisted to even use for stickers which I have found to be a constant need. You would not confuse the live oak for a post if you saw it in person. While the barks look alot the same the leaves are nothing alike. The live oak holds its leaves all year except for early spring when it sheds the old and puts on the new. We rarely get any ice or snow here to amount to anything, but sometimes we will get a spell of ice and the live oaks suffer. All the ice builds up on the leaves  so the weight sometimes rips off huge limbs or splits the tree in two. For that reason I bet they would not due well a lot farther north.

[customsawyer]

Sounds like that stuff is as hard as carbide tip woodpecker lips.

[Slabs]

Me n' Canthook cleaved up a big Live Oak a couple of years ago and I can attest to to the hardness and density.  I saved a couple of the larger scraps to make small items around the shop.  Another surprise I got was it's ability to stain my cast-iron tool tables.  even with regular applications of oil to prevent rust the stains remain after a year or more.  Must got some potent tannin in the wood.

[ellmoe]

  Tpuogh wood to saw. The 4 degree blades made a big difference, almost easy to saw now. We're running 25 hp electric motors though.

Mark

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

All the Live Oak I have sawed I went quartersawn and cut thick.
Somebody also mentioned Post Oak.  I love the tawny brown color it has.
Also, quarter-sawn, it has a unique look - unlike White or Red or Live.

The most beautiful oak rays I have every seen however came from a
lowly Scarlet Oak.  This tree tends to be a stubby trunk.  Several years
ago I sawed one with a chainsaw mill.  The rays ran in long curving pathways
all the way across boards up to 12" wide.   I had made some corrective cuts
to straighten up a quartered log.  These corrective slices were not even 5/8 thick
and over 12" wide.  They dried dead straight and flat.  Amazingly-thin whispy rays!
Not a beautiful red color, but what rays!   The tree must have been about 26" dia. -
pretty big for a Scarlet Oak.


DanG, I need to catch up on my pic loading!

Phil L.

[LeeB]

GAry, you might try deisel through your home drip system. I tried spraying the blades with Pam. It helped but I couldn't afford to keep enough on. I never tried the diesel. Stack and sticker as buick as you cut and dry slowly. You will get some some boards you can use. Quarter sawing helps. It will crook, but stay flatter. I lived in Liberty Hill before moving to Arkansas, so I cut my teeth on the wonderfully fun woods you have a choice of.

[brdmkr]

These corrective slices were not even 5/8 thick and over 12" wide.  They dried dead straight and flat. 

I made some similar corrective cuts on a water oak log when I first got my mill.  They were about 5/8 or so like in your case.  I just stood them on end and leaned them against the wall of the shop.  They are completely straight, with no bow, twist, cup, etc.  After your post, I now think that may be 'normal' and not just luck.  I could see purposely cutting oak that thin for panel doors if cutting thin somehow improves the quality.

[Handy Andy]

  Have you actually determined the name of live oak?  Here in Kansas we have an oak that is native called "burr oak".  Checked with the extension forester, and he tells me it is a white oak species. Doesn't look like white oak to me. But it is hard, and the stuff I sawed last winter, piled it in the barn in a pile about 12' tall to try to keep the stuff straight.  The sawmillers I have asked about the stuff, call it black oak.

[gharlan]

Handy Andy; The live oak We have here in Texas is different  from southern live oak. Ours is Quercus Fusiformis  where southern is Quercus Virginiana according to the info I have found on the net. I think the Texas oak is not quite as large and the acorns are different. We also have burr oaks which are wonderful trees and make good saw logs. The live oaks tend to be very crooked and gnarled. They usually grow in poor conditions and they seem to reflect those conditions.  I sawed a Burr Oak as well as a Post oak about six months ago. Here is a pic of the three woods lined up.
 

The same three with water on them.
  

Sorry for the flash glare. The Quarter sawn Burr Oak is on top, the Live Oak, Post oak on bottom.

LeeB;  thanks for the diesel idea. I tried water, water with pine sol, water with dish soap, and paint thinner mixed with a lot of bar oil. I had my dad spraying the oil mixture from a bottle on the blade as I cut. I thought next i would just flood the blade while cutting with water and soap to reduce the surface tension. A problem though Is that a great many of these cuts are 24 inches wide. I think I am going to quarter saw the next half. If I take a deep cut from the pith and then a deep cut from the bark side maybe the other cuts will not be over 16 inches or so.  I just hope I can get it to dry straight and flat after all this work.

Thank you all for all the help and advice. I can not wait to get the new bands and try again. I think I am excited about these logs just because they are unusual. I have visions of a 12 dinning table. I toyed with the idea of trying to bend some green on forms for chairs. I can tell you it is not very flexible green. Maybe a steam chamber should be in the works!  Thanks again  Gary

[LeeB]

Just leave it dry a little and then get it wet again. It'll bend all by itself. Maybe you'll get the bend you want. I never knew that Texas live oak wasnt Qercus Virgininianus but I always figured it was different. Oaks have a propensity to cross breed. You'll have better luck with narrower cuts and drying. You'll also get a little more blade life and straiter cut.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Here's some typical Florida Live Oak.

  What shape are the boats they use this for

[abatol]

I realize these are some big logs so it may not apply to your situation gharlan .But in general  what about cutting it into 4x6's or 8x8's and waxing or greasing the ends to reduce checking from uneven drying?
I think I would put a nailed spacer between each stick on three cross skids , stacking however high and even weight on top to boot
Has any one tried to cut dense wood with a water and antifreeze mix?

[ely]

WELL, ONCE AGAIN I AM LEARNING STUFF. sorry bout that . i have cut burr oak and white oak and post oak. never cut a live oak and we do have it here, in the rich folks yards where they had them planted while land scaping. not sure about the fancy name on the live oaks here. but in the fall there is a multitude of acorns arounf the doctors offices and stuff in town. i just find it facinating that the live oak that gharlan has is so tough to cut and has pitch build up as well.
the burr oak i cut is in my photo gallery i think it was 44 inches on the small end and 12 feet long. it sawed really well and made even prettier q-sawn boards.

[clousert]

I never heard of "live oak" before either.  How does it compare to hickory?  We saw that on our bandmill, as long as it isn't frozen.

[beenthere]

Hickory is a breeze, compared to live oak.