Logging Waste Products

[Nate Surveyor]

I know that I probably am wrong, but it seems to me that the cut off tops of trees, that rot could be chipped, and made into stuff. Like pulp mills, and turpentine.

It seems to me, that to chop off all the tops, and limbs could be run through a hog, and used for something. Maybe pellet stoves, or fuel source for sawmills that generate power.

Is anybody harvesting the WHOLE tree, productively?

Thanks,

Nate

[Ed]

In some places, on large scale operations, the whole tree is utilized.
I don't know if Deere is the only company making one of these.
http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/forestry/deere_forestry/harvesters/wheel/1490d_wheel_harvester_video.html

On a small scale I can't imagine it being profitable to use the whole tree. Accessability would be a major issue when dealing with a select hardwood harvest. The size of the tops (large) would also come into play as well as the distance the "product" would have to be hauled to the nearest facility that could burn it.

Most of the time there isn't much waste from a hardwood harvest, after the logger finishes and the firewood cutters get done only the smaller branches remain. After the branches decompose into the forest floor, nothing is wasted.

Ed

[Furby]

I belive whole tree use is most times considered biomass use of the scraps/leftovers.
In some situations that can be good, but the tops contain most of the needed nutrients for the forest floor to continue producing.

[Onthesauk]

Out here, at least on the State forest contracts, they require that all that be left on the ground.  Slows runoff and erosion.

Down closer to the cities, when they clear for development, they bring in tub grinders and haul it all to the pulp mill.

[Ron Wenrich]

Another factor is that quite often the tops will allow seedlings to develop and keep deer away from them, at least in hardwoods. 

For the most part, the economics gets a little tough for dragging tops long distances and then reducing them to chips.  Cost of a good chipping operation is in the millions.  Return on the biomass is about $25/ton delivered, and in some places even less.  Your logging costs just get too high for the return.

[Woodhog]

That Deere baler thing is pretty neat..

They appear to be picking up everything. In our Best Management Practices Manual they mention to leave woody debris in cutting operations.

Is this good practice to be picking up everything, if left natural  this stuff would rot up and do something some good in the grand scheme of things.

It doesnt seem to fit the natural cycle of things, I have noticed over the years when the natural cycle of things is changed too much  we usually end up with something messed up.

[thecfarm]

I did a tour of a logging job with the grandson 3rd grade class and they was taking the whole trees.They would cut out the logs and chip the rest.I don't think there is much money in biomas chips for the land owner.I would rather see it go for pulp.But chipping it I suppose is quicker.It looks real good when the lot is chipped.Looks like a park if that's the look you want.Some loogers don't want the expense of a chipper and trailers.Around here most loggers take pulp down to 4 inches.Taking the pulp out just really cleans up the tops.I know it's differant in some regions,but around here it looks bad to leave the tops.I would cross that logger off my list if it was done here in Maine.Just the way things have been done around here.

[Rocky_Ranger]

Ron, can I send you a couple pics for you to post?  I never tried to do them before.  We have/had a whole tree chipper working here in first thinnings (loblolly - 20 yes old) and it's amazing what that thing will do.  Folks are correct on the investment, but they were getting $55.00/ton delivered and chipping 22 tons/van load in 20 minutes.  Outstanding.  Problem is some dude in Canada bought the whole operation and they loaded it up one day and hauled it north......

With needles turning every three -four years we are not seeing a large amount of nutrients lost.  The skidders do turn some of the outcast bark and limbs back out into the plantations.  Very little goes back into the stand once the logs reach the landings.  Belsaws and Hydroaxes with pull through delimbers create a little more debris, but not much.  Most loads look like brush piles heading done the road.  Talk is $85.00/ton chips by early summer.......

[WDH]

Ron hit the nail on the head.   The economics don't work out.  The cost to produce the biomass exceeds the price the current mills can pay.  Sawmill residues such as sawdust and bark set the threshold price that biomass must compete with to be burned as fuel in a boiler.

I am not sure about the price threshold for cellulosic ethanol, but the technology has not been proven on a scale operation yet.

As to the John Deere biomass bailer....we used the bailer on our property in LA on a trial.  Did a pretty good job, but again, the delivered cost to the mill kills the deal.

[Gary_C]

There is a lot of change going on in this biomass business right now.

Here in Minnesota we have a large chipping operation that almost out bid a sawmill on a red oak timber sale. The chipping operation was going to chip whole trees to fill his contract for hardwood fuel chips for a St. Paul power plant. Even then the chipper operation made a deal after the sale to go in and chip all the tops after the logger gets his logs and whatever firewood he wants. I have no idea what they are getting paid for chips, but I've heard they were hauling 50 semi loads of chips per day to the power plant.
 
That power plant is switching away from coal as they expect new long term coal contracts to increase in price very soon.

Another demand for biomass is from the landscape mulch chippers. They have been getting paid to clear housing developments and got free biomass from all the trees they got paid to remove. Now that the housing markets are so bad, there are no new developments and they are scrambling to find sources for their biomass. They may even have to start buying their own timber sales.

Most of the large loggers are adding a chipper just for dealing with the tops. Some sales do allow for chipping the tops and if you are not able to utilize those tops you may get outbid by some logger that can.

[WDH]

Gary,

Down this way, a chipper costs $750,000.  Of course, that is a big production chipper capable of producing 20 tractor-trailer loads a day.  At that cost, a logger has to chip a whale of a lot of biomass.  Just the tops off the logging job are not nearly enough. 

Like you say, if you are chipping guts-feathers-and-all for a power plant, that is a different story.  A logger can make production in that circumstance.  With the price of fuel (as I am sure you are painfully aware ), the wood-equivalent-price is higher than people realize to replace oil with wood.  The problem is, the markets are rather local, so in many places, the market may not be there at all.

I am watching the whole biomass business very closely to see where the wind is blowing.  So far, a lot of talk and not much action in this part of the world.

[pineywoods]

Don't know about other areas, but here (north central louisiana) the chip trucks are running 24/7 and there's a bunch of them. The three large paper mills in this area are converting to biomass instead of natural gas. Most of the chips are from first thinning of plantation pine. but some from tops in regular logging operations. In most cases the loggers are contracting out the hauling. I just had a logger clean up 28 acres of small sweetgum and pin oak, leaving the pine and log sized hardwood. Plan to log the rest myself and then re-plant. Chips bring the land owner 50 cents a ton. Hardly worth the damage to the land, but I think it will pay off longterm.

[Frickman]

It is very difficult to make any money now logging higher value products like saw and veneer logs. I can't see how I could make money harvesting biomass.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

The most recent ripple in the pond for extreme use of "everything but the squeal"
in my area of Georgia is the new ethanol plant being built by Range Fuels.  Ground is
broken and work is beginning near Soperton, GA.

The intention is to use pine to produce ethanol.  The process is supposedly proven,
but has never been used on the scale required for commercial success.  I think I
remember that it will need something around 100 chip loads a day to operate.  This
part of Georgia is really saturated with young pine.  It remains to be seen how the
process will actually perform and what effect it will have on our area. 

One would assume that it will surely give new meaning to the term "clear cut." 
It may even create a link to another term: "soil depletion."   Will the hunger of this
process create a little blip in the price of pine thinnings, tops, etc.? Maybe.  Will any
significant rise in price simply shut down the operation, making the ethanol too expensive
to produce?  Will the Middle East simply begin to lower oil prices to squelch U.S. efforts to
diversify in the area of energy?

It does stand to reason that many more local small operations will have a closer
location to send byproduct chips, etc.   That means less fuel cost for the provider of the chips, hence
a better return.   It may not be enough to justify the full-blown efforts such as WDH is
talking about, unless someone would guarantee a sufficient supply for X number of months
at X number of dollars per ton.   In that game, of course, big equipment wins.  The little guy
with a few loads a week just has to take what the buyer will offer - an amount which will always
depend upon the rates of the big contractors in the game.

Phil L.

[timberjack240]

not much goes to waste with us we are to take logs .. obvisously .. and the strater poles out of the tops for firewood so basically all thats left is the brush and some limbs that are really crooked .. the blocks that are left in the landing and some of the tops people cut up for firewood so therses not much left and wht is rots down in a few years and biulds up the gorund then at the mill all the "waste" is chipped and ground into mulch so basically there isnt much that goes to waste which is good cause i hate seein wood go to waste

[Samuel]

We are utilizing full tree as our operations are 100% portable chipping (see profile for pics).  The hog fuel produced from our ops is either spread back out into the cut block or if within 100 km of the mill, is hauled back for the boiler to run the pulp mill.

As far as going into a block and chipping tops only, does not result is great quality for pulp especially.  Hog fuel yes, but for highg quality pulp, we have to keep our bark content below 2%

[SwampDonkey]

I'm pretty sure when Cfarm says he doesn't like tops left, it's those huge main limbs on hardwoods that stick up 20 feet in the air. As one logger said, if he can look 1/4 mile down his cut block and see tops 20 feet in the air, his crew is wasting wood. I like the fine tops, anything smaller than 4" to be left behind. It's gone in 10 years around here and if it's softwood tops there is a lot of good seed ready to come up next spring in those skid paths, providing it was a good seed year. Around here if you harvest and forward the wood, you get pretty much aspen only on the site. We get a lot better thinning sites on harvests that were skidded. The only exception are sites with established advanced regen you try to protect by forwarding and it takes a skilled operator to not destroy the regen because of all the extra handling and maneuvering and processing.

[thecfarm]

Yes,swampdonkey that's what I meant.Most loggers around here will work the wood down to 4 inches for  the pulp.Some will run over the tops to knock the branches down and knock every thing else down too.But some will saw the limbs off when they are done.I know time is money the way things are,even if the equipment is all paid off.It will rot very quickly if you get the brush on the ground.

[okmulch]

I run a whole tree grinding operation here in Oklahoma. However it is strictly Eastern Red Cedar. We run the whole thing needles, limbs and trunks for mulch. we do have to let the needles dry first so the mulch will not mold, but when we are done clearing land there is very little residual left mainly just dust that has blown while grinding.

[Maineloggerkid]

    Here in Maine, most logging operations up here in the northern part of the state do this.