Better keep your mind on your business

[Haytrader]

The operator appears to have very good /hand/foot cordination.

[tim1234]

Haytrader

I love watching machinery work but so much for low impact logging.

That guy is cutting the toothpicks down too!

Why wouldn't they leave the smaller trees for later? 

Tim

[Haytrader]

tim

I think this must be an example of CLEAR CUT.

[Nate Surveyor]

That is one neat meachine!

I know  they were pulpwood sized logs, but that sure beats chain saw.

Wow!

N

[sawguy21]

He sure can process a lot of wood in a hurry. He may be clear cutting for a development or the land owner may be planning to re plant. If he high grades and leaves the immature growth, it would be vulnerable to damage from wind, erosion, disease etc.

[CLL]

I would love to just set and watch that. Only trouble here is so many limbs on the cedars and the oaks could present problem with the large limbs. There is a man at springfield that uses one on cedar, but he admitted it wasn't profitable.

[Texas Ranger]

That is pretty much the way plantation management was going here in Texas, cut every thing around 15 -20 years, and replant.  That looks like other than southern species, would be curious on what part of the country it was in.

[Gary_C]

From the caption at the end of that and because of the length he was cutting, I believe that video was from Europe, probably Sweden or Finland. That machine is a Timberjack but it is now painted green because John Deere bought Timberjack.

There are many of those harvesters around here in Minnesota and they are mostly Ponsse's, John Deere's, and a few Valmets. I have an older Valmet Harvester and it is not quite as fast nor powerful, but it will do the same thing as that John Deere. I was running today removing all the aspen from a small wood lot. Probably cut about 10 to 15 cords this morning before a stick got up in the rotator hoses and broke a small fitting.

Running one of those machines is very automated and is mostly done with your hands using two joysticks. The main thing the operator does is reach out and grab the tree and then hold the auto button down. After the tree is felled, you move the tree where you want the pieces to fall and back to auto till it is gone. One of those newer harvesters in the hands of a good operator can cut over 100 cords per day.

[WDH]

I had the chance to go to Sweden and see the logging systems over there.  It is all cut-to-length and clearcut and re-plant is the norm.

[SwampDonkey]

That's pretty much how it is done up here, all mechanized on crown forests. They sent the skidder crews out of the crown land woods 10 years ago. Some guys process 10 - 14 cords an hour.

[Rocky_Ranger]

Most of these CTL machines have to have some pretty good timber to cut to pay for themselves, I had one used on a sale in Colorado.  Fun to watch, and they guy was doing multiple product and species sorts so I think he made a little money.  He sold it pretty soon after that sale, just too expensive to run.  I got some pics of it running.  Down here now it's all Hydroaxes and Belsaws.  Fast, efficient, maneuverable, etc. We don't have hardly any chainsaws working here anymore, all mechanized.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah there is a lot of down time with those machines and around here there is no local dealer, so you have to travel a 100 miles or more for parts. That adds up especially since the forest companies want it done for cheap.

[pineywoods]

There's one of these monsters sitting in the yard of a local equipment repair shop here.  Been there for several months. Must be waiting for parts or just too expensive to repair....
Or could be the locals (not JD shop) can't figure it out.

[beenthere]

There's one of these monsters sitting in the yard of a local equipment repair shop here.  Been there for several months. Must be waiting for parts or just too expensive to repair....
Or could be the locals (not JD shop) can't figure it out.

Or... who owns it doesn't have the money (cash flow) to get it fixed...  some shops can't invest the time & materials without some assurance they will get their money back..  Just a thought...

[Woodhog]

They are fun to watch...

Makes you feel like throwing your chainsaws in the dump....

However most of them around here end up broke after a while, the machine wears out before they even get it paid for, if they get it paid for its just a pile of junk with huge repair costs.

The owner has someone run it 6 days a week 24 hours a day and then runs it himself on the 7th day to try and make a little profit.

The  huge initial investment vs the $ return doesnt work around here for that stuff anymore in the primary industries.

Then the young fellows see them sitting there in the big processor seat and dont want to use the chainsaw anymore and all head for the oilfields.

The mill has an almost impossible quota to run thru the machine per day, when your machine
starts to get to much downtime they just hire another with stars in their eyes , until they too run out of money.

I dont think big is the long term way to go anymore.

[pineywoods]

There's one of these monsters sitting in the yard of a local equipment repair shop here.  Been there for several months. Must be waiting for parts or just too expensive to repair....
Or could be the locals (not JD shop) can't figure it out.

Or... who owns it doesn't have the money (cash flow) to get it fixed...  some shops can't invest the time & materials without some assurance they will get their money back..  Just a thought...

I have a sneaky feeling this one belongs to the local bank

[SwampDonkey]

I see a lot of these machines repo'ed as well, most are simply warn out and hard to sell. If your working on private woodlots you have to be very confident you have wood lined up to invest in them. That is why skidders, tractors and horses are working most woodlots here. You simply cannot afford a machine that is worth more than the wood. You have to ask yourself, why did the forest companies give up on purchasing and maintaining their harvesting equipment. If they can't afford it, neither can the loggers.

[WDH]

If you (the logger) can produce the loads that the machine is capable of producing, the payout is good.  However, many times loggers are not allowed to produce what they are capable of because of lack of orders for their wood or because they are on a quota that is less than they can produce.  Mother nature also plays a part in the productivity equation. 

In logging, it is essential that the logger have good relationships with the mills so that they will let the logger produce what the logger is capable of.  This is easier said than done.

[SwampDonkey]

Haytrader

I love watching machinery work but so much for low impact logging.

That guy is cutting the toothpicks down too!

Why wouldn't they leave the smaller trees for later? 

Tim

It might be that those small sticks are as old as the big ones and they have small crowns due to suppression and may not respond to well or be wind firm.

[Woodhog]

If you (the logger) can produce the loads that the machine is capable of producing, the payout is good.

This wont work around here,  I was talking yesterday to a friend cutting studwood (8 foot) ,minimum 5 inches on the small end.

He was getting 107.00 per cord for prime stud wood with no defects.

They used to pay around 170.00 per cord for the same stuff 3 or 4 years ago...

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, when I look at those prices I say to myself.... There must be a market, or they would not be buying. The price is low because they have too much cheap wood. Totally opposite of what they are preaching.

[Woodhog]

Yes its the same old story...

They get a few contractors on the hook for a million dollars worth of processing iron,

He produces huge volume, they see it coming into the yard and down goes the price.

The processor boys then ramp up production another notch or two to make of the price short fall with more volume, log supply to the mill increases, the mill decreases price again.

The fellow in the woods would be better off if all had a small piece of forwarding equipment and a chainsaw, but then its fun to be seen floating that million dollar enterprise thru the community to change job sites with your name on the door.

It goes on and on...

[deutz4]

It's not that difficult to make these "fancy machines" feasible. We've been doing it for about  10 years now and we still have no late fees or banks crawling up our butts. Our situation is a little unique but everyone can tailor their operation till it fits.
 1. The most important thing for us is that we are owner/operators. We are 3 brothers in partnership with only 1 employee. I've never seen a machine treated by an employee as well as it is by the guy paying for it. We work a long day and when I'm crawling in bed I don't have to be worrying about somebody out there running over stumps in the middle of the night.
 2. We have never bought brand new. It's easy to spot the difference between used and abused equipment. Leave someone else take the initial hit and keep your eyes open for that low hours machine at a 35% discount.
 3. Get into a situation where you can produce full time. This isn't easy to find but if you have a good reputation and are reliable there are companies out there that will be interested. We subcontract to a great company that keeps us in timber as fast as we can cut it. They have their own forester and usually move us the same day we tell them we are done.
 4. Work EVERY day. Plow the yard when you get home. We don't produce staggering numbers but we do it relentlessly. The guy who is sitting at the coffee shop at 8:00 in the morning should think about what that danish is actually costing him.

[Gary_C]

It's not that difficult to make these "fancy machines" feasible.

I know it is popular to believe these machines do not make economic sense. But you have to realize there are many situations like deutz4's where the owners are doing well. Perhaps not if you are going to walk out cold and spent a million dollars with no history or equity. But if you start smaller and work your way up plus work hard, there is money to be made, even in todays markets.

There is one excellent operator I know in Minnesota that at last count had 13 complete cut to length operations, consisting of Ponsse harvesters and forwarders. He usually trades 3-4 sets each year and his used machines are well maintained and have at least 10,000 hrs when traded. You could not tell him these machines do not make economic sense.

When the markets are difficult like they are now, these good operators are the only ones left working. The smaller ones with older equipment do not have access to good markets and have either quit or doing something else.

In my situation, I run older, less expensive equipment and I only cut part time. And I put up with a lot more repairs and downtime than newer machines. Plus it is very difficult to get good help, so I end up working alone way too much. I would love to have one of those new, fancy machines but then I would be into working full time and hiring help. 

[SwampDonkey]

The key factor is available wood. On private land there is a lot of searching and competition. On crown land they know for years ahead where the wood is and how much they will be cutting, quite an advantage.  Some people seem to ignore this little factor. Doesn't aways matter how good you are, although it can be an advantage. But often you get inundated with people wanting you to cut their 5 or 10 acre lot behind the house or clear their fence row of wired, nailed and crooked wood. Being popular does not always get you good wood. Also, dealing with a mill that likes to play with the rates is very common here.

[Ed_K]

 Do any of you have mechanical experience with a 1110 timberjack forwarder? I have a friend how has one, it was built in europe, it has a problem with movement. One day it starts and moves forward and backward next time you can't move it. Locked right up.

[Stephen Alford]

Hey Ed ! this may not apply  but I was wondering if anyone has heard of this. A guy here had a machine that would not move , he had replaced the gear oil in the rearend with full synthetic oil. Water got in ,with the old 80-90 the oil would get creamy and stiff, but with the full synthetic the water "completely seperates" and froze. I still run 80-90 but found the story interesting but do not know if it is factual.  Stephen

[Gary_C]

Ed

It could certainly have water in one of the differentials and on cold days it freezes and warm days not. Pull the drain plugs and you could see either water, ice or oil.

Stephen

Never heard that. However any oil and water will not mix. Yes, you can get it stirred together in a milky mess, but when you stop mixing, the water will settle out.

[barbender]

Is that Mike Rieger you're talking about Gary? I've heard that he's the largest CTL operation in the country, don't know if that's true or not, I know he's the biggest in minnesota for sure. From what I understand, he's just a regular guy, real down to earth.You don't put all that equpment in the woods if it isn't making money.

[Gary_C]

Yes, it is Mike and he sure is a nice guy. Gave me some very good advice when I was looking at harvesters. 

[Ed_K]

 GaryC, this machine has been like this since he bought it last summer. They did check the oils tho to cross that off the list. My son thinks it should be hooked to a computer anilizer and do some resetting? I've never heard of this or gotten into the mechanics of these new machines.