need your knowledge & experience .....tractor vs logging

[roger 4400]

     Hi guys...I,ve been sneaking around since a few months and I like you sharing experience and knowledge that help every one,s safety. Wish you,ll help me.
     I,m 57, retired and logging for +- 15 years using most my Honda foreman 400cc atv, log arch with 2 other wheels in the back if the logs are to heavy (like this spring, 23 in. X12 ft white pine) , a 4 wheels tandem carrier ( can haul 150 bf of spruce or balsam logs or almost half a cord of 16in firewood if I put a special box into the carrier). I used my old 1959 550 Oliver to pull the big logs to my forest road and then use the atv not to damage my roads.
    I live  30 miles north of Montreal in Quebec on a 61 acres flat land. 6 acres are lawn and the rest is forest.( red maple 6 to 16in. , balsam fir to 12 in. after they get sick, white spruce up to 17 in, hemlock 16 in. and +- 800 white pines mostly 14 to 16 in, but a few to 24 inches). Use my tractor to pull my 6 ft finishing mower, push snow FEL  +- 400 ft driveway and logging once and a while but it,s only 2wd...and 49 years old.
     I also have a 145 acres forest 100 miles up north. I use my Honda to do +-85 cords of firewood (16 in.) that I sell to my neighbors. From that forest I logged all my wood to build my home, 650 logs, 21,000 fb with my atv and a lot of sweat. This is a hilly site, a prairie  where i park and +- 4000 red pines 6in to 10 in. 50 ft tall(posts). I have 2 mountains (to hilly to bring old Oliver) but  my hunting cabin is 500 ft higher than my prairie,,,, I have nice roads, the worst slope is the one before my prairie , +- 45 degrees 250 feet long....so a load is pushing hard ( with my atv if I use compression, I,m in 5 gear, down the  hill ) of course I do not log on this hill unless the log touches the ground ( once I pulled a 17 ft 21in spruce log with one end on the ground using my arch.) Over there I have hard maple up to 24 in. 150 years old and more, yellow birch up to 20 in (one is 40 to 42 in. it is beguinning to be sick with my husqvarna 61  16 in blade I cannot take it down or at least cut it in 16 in.(firewood) and surely cannot log it but it is clear for 50 feet) . A few years ago I had a 17 feet 32in. oak log my uncle tried to pull it with his J5 ... it was bucking up but could not log it....I hired a d6 bulldozer..for 8 oak logs.2 times lost his *lies* (traction made of steel) on my land ...what an experience... I have white cedars up to 20 in, and big basswood etc... SO I think that if I work slow safe as much as I can ( I know some will say to use a skidder...but I cannot afford one or carry one and it would damage all my roads) I,ll use a Farmi winch to safely take the log to one of my road and haull a few with a 4wd tractor. I can haul 5000 pounds with my 18 foot trailer(7,000 pounds capacity but it weights 2000 pounds) the *pony * is a F250 and 10,000pounds hitch . I need a tractor for my home and to take care of my roads that rain damaged (heavy rain +big slope=damaged road..) SO ...I think a good choice of tractor would be a KUBOTA L4400 (45HP),loaded industrial tire, FEL. this tractor is light but we can always add weight , strong enough( I wish) (how many hp left in my 49 year old Oliver!!!and still pulling), simple mechanic, no computers ( I do not know what those computers, relays, wires connection will look like in 20 years,,with corosion etc...).I need your experience and knowledge but you must understand that I have two locations but one wallet....
     I,m sorry if there are english mistakes...I was raised and went to school in french but I had good english friends....thank you all.
     By the way, next week Ill have two vans of firewood (full lenght trees) that I,ll be cutting , last automn I only cut +- 20 cords on y land.....had to give to much time for deere hunting....finally...they won( they,ll be bigger next year ...hahaha) .

[beenthere]

roger 4400
Welcome to the forum. You have a very interesting woodland and we look forward to more discussions of all your endeavors. Your english writing is quite good, and no apologies needed. Thanks for letting us know more about your experience and plans.

We like pictures, so if that is possible or of interest to you, please post some in your gallery.

Pull up a stump and tell us more.

[roger 4400]

     Beenthere ,thanks for your answer and welcome! my wife or children are gonna show me  how to put pics in our forum....because I know you are all VOYEURS  hahaha. I also like pics... last summer in the prairie on my second land I,ve found ( after an excavator took all the top soil, and after a few winters)  2 spears points and an arrow point all made of stone (quartzite, in U.S.A. yours are mostly of sylex stones) I had  the teacher of anthropology of the Montreal University to take a look at them and he said they were 3500 to 4000 years old.....imagine what a discovery...wat a treasuse as soon as possible I,ll send pics. I also have pics of nice hard maple 39 in in diameter, and pics of the pile of the 650 logs needed for my home.....logging, nature,=passion.   see you.

[Stephen Alford]

Hi Roger : if you need any help posting photos wrong I'm your boy. Sounds like you have a wonderful woodlot. In my situation I have used a well skid-plated,65hp,4x4 with 18" clearance using some modified gear. If I can help let me know. I have managed to get some photos back on the forum as far as the gallery relatively fast ; forum crash not withstanding.
                                                                                                        Stephen

[thecfarm]

roger 4400,welcome to the forum. I feel a 45hp tractor 4wd is just about right with a 3pt winch.I do alot with just about the same size Ford.You are all ready doing some with a ATV,so you know enough to be careful and take it slow.I wish my tractor  could be bigger but money is a factor too.And of course the bigger it is the more you will try to twitch out with it.I worked my land for about 5 years steady.Still looks good without a lot of wear and tear on my roads.I can sneak in to alot of places without making a big mess.I have hauled out some good size logs with this tractor.Might of only been 10-12 feet long but I got them out.I try to keep away from 8 footers,sawmills don't like many of them in a load.Since I get all the money I can take more time on keeping things clean.My twitch trails I keep clear of any brush,can't have brush going under the tractor much.My stumps I keep low and I plan out my roads between the trees I want to keep and the rocks I have to go around.I could use a skidder too,but just not in the budget.I keep my tractor moving on almost every day I have off.Just take it slow and remember what you are sitting on and you should be safe.Don't think you are going to bring a cord out at a time and you will be fine.There is always tomorrow to get the job done.

[shinnlinger]

Roger,

Welcome...here is a link you might find helpful.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,28962.0.html

[simonmeridew]

Bonjour Roger,
I have an L4400 with a Farmi winch which I use on my 45 acre property in NE Vermont. It works well for me. I don't have the big variety of species or log size you have, but  I can pull out anything I want with the Kubota. I used to use my Ford 8N for 25 years, but the Kubota/Farmi setup I have now is MUCH safer.
Two suggestions:  1.   I have Ag tires and like them. Industrial would probably load up with mud and dig up the roads worse than Ag tires. I also have Norwegian diamond pattern boron chains on the rears. Very effective.
2. Get yourself a good snatch block pulley. That'll save you moving the tractor around to pull a log that's caught behind the stump, and save you buggering up a bunch of trees that you don't want to cut because the pull isn't a straight shot. There's a self releasing kind that might save you a trip back to the pulley, or get the 'Chinese' kind like I have that you just go back to the tree and unhook it from the strap. Both work.
simonmeridew

[Quebecnewf]

Welcome Roger

Good to see another person from Prov Quebec on the forum. I live north east of you . Looks like you have some nice wood to work with.

I have to do all my logging in the winter with snowmobile

 

What type of mill do you use for your logs bandmill or swingblade?

I have pics posted in my gallery

Quebecnewf

[Phorester]

Welcome Roger.  Since you can correctly spell prairie, I'd say your english is pretty good.

I envy you people that have land to work on/play with.  Never could afford it on my government salary whta with raising a family too.

[woodmills1]

You should check out a canadian company called les distributors payeur.  I think you can see it at payeur.com, they assemble woods ready tractors and forwarding trailers.  I have one of their forester packages.  they are in sherbrook

[roger 4400]

     Thanks to all of you for your replies. (I could feel the warmth...Hahaha)
 Stephen, the kubota is +- 16in. and I will not leave my roads, I,ll have the logs come to me with a Farmi winch. Thanks .
Thec Farm, don,t worry,,,,,I,ll take it easy and slow,,,,I,m retired ,,,,but your advise is a very good *refresher*.  I also take care of my forest roads . I can,t take too heavy, the last hill *pushes* too much.
Shinnlinger, thanks for the links, it gave me good infos and I think I,ll made the right choice and the Kubota L4400 will serve all my needs (home and land).
Simonmeridew, thanks for the *bonjour*...I  laught when I saw that. It look like you have the *outfit* I,m looking for!!!My Farmi will also be a 351. And strangely the 8N you had before is like the Oliver I do own...I,ll also use the tractor to cut the grass and agri. tires are hard on the surface....it,s not easy to find the perfect set-up. The pulley and it,s strap is on my list  plus the releasing *knot*, they sell them via Nova Jack.  I already have a cone that helps avoiding the stumps..
Phorester *you funny guy*... I can also write my name in both languages...but now I,m serious... do not abandon your dream....keep looking for your DREAM LAND and you might find it....it happened to me 2 times... imagine I had a part of my big land (104 acres) in 1993 . My uncle was his neighbor, I called the old man, he wanted to see my *face* (same in french...hahaha), he asked me what I wanted to do with HIS LAND, after explanation he said he liked me and sold it to me for $10,000.... Now the land where I live: was looking for a year, and one day I saw a small sign on a post...I called and in 1999  house and lot selling were slow over here...it belongs to a lawyer firm they needed money...we morgaged our home and paid $50,000 for 61 acres (72.5 arpents). Today I could sell at least 50 lots for home construction every lot sells around for $30,000..... but it is not for sell it,s one of my paradise. SO DON,T ABANDON YOUR DREAM. ( I raised a family of 6 children also).
Woodmills1, I called Payeur a few months ago, the Kioti kit is nice but is too heavy for my trailer. Same HP, Kioti are more than 800 pounds heavier. BY the way very nice oak planks on your site.
Quebecnewf, I love (not like) your ...photos.  Your load is mostly spruce...do you cut balsam....do balsam  get sick early (10 to 12 inches they start *to bleed wkite drops on the bark and then you know that theyre dying). I DO NOT OWN  a mill. to mill I *rent* a miller and his portable bandsaw( we save more wood this way). Up to now I had +- 40,000 fb done and average price for milling is $170 per 1000fb. I built all my home, all the interior, kitchen cabinet are solid black walnut ( I had to buy from an importer 1,100fb), some wall and furniture of 7/8 in red oak (mine) , some cabinet of clear pine (mine) nice furniture made of my black cherry. I do all my mouldings (planer , shaper etc...) .
      ALL OF YOU ..BE SAFE.   
 Roger

[Quebecnewf]

Roger

I cut mostly balsam and spruce 70% balsam 30% spruce

We have small wood here  and no hardwood just a bit of birch. I have been sawing/logging part time for the last 15 years .

Building a workshop now 26x32. After that is done maybe slow down on the logging.

Do more woodworking and more selective cutting. Hoping to cut some larch again this winter. I dry it in my solar kiln great wood

Quebecnewf
 

[woodmills1]

thanks and good luck in your search.  I have some nice oak here.

[RSteiner]

I agree with what the others have said about tractor size and having a good 3PH winch.  The only two things I would add are get ag tires or as they are known R1's they will give you better traction in the woods than the R4's or industrial tires. 

I have a 30 hp Kubota with a Farmi winch and a logging arch I made years ago when I had a Ford 8N.  The only thing I would like now is a fowarding trailer with a log loader.

Randy

[roger 4400]

     Hi guys, to all of you that had experience logging with a tractor.....Stephen, Tecfarm, Simon, Randy,,,,AND others ,will the rear end of my (future...) tractor a Kubota L4400 45hp,  weight +- 3,400 pounds, tire filled (+-600 POUNDS) and FEL (+_ 1000 pounds)  so 5,000 overall, will *jerk* or slide ( I do not know the right english term..loose control) in smooth downhill curves!!!!!if I haul a trailer (fowarder if I can afford one) with +-2000pounds of load!!!!I,m green in that, never done it before, I never took my old Oliver 2wd on my hilly land (brakes are so$so and if not perfectly ballanced it will curve in the last hill or worst a stalled engine). I only used it on my flat land.
     Concerning the use of the right tires....2 of you gave me the same opinion ( using AG tires instead IND tires) I guess you,re right...but there is a problem... I also use my tractor for mowing (6 acres) .On Oliver I have AG tires  used at 50% so less agressive. Are new Agr. tire a lot more *agressive* for the turf!?? If I log on my hilly forest, usually even with my ATV, I pull when it is DRY not to damage the forest roads. I,ve red that IND. tires are wider and stronger and less agressive ...so soft on the turf....BUT perhaps bad for pushing snow during winter.... OH BOY   not easy to find the perfect setup....with your help and opinions , Ill have to make THAT DIFFICULT CHOICE  hahaha .
     Randy ( RSteiner) concerning a fowarding trailer, have you found any that is +- 5 feet large but that could carry  16 footers? is there any with a central beam that would extend or we,ll have to built it ourselves?(haha). Over here as in the States, I think that you get more money per FB with 12 to 16 ft logs? but no small (narrow) fowarder I,ve seen can carry those(16). Over here a 5 feet large, 12 ft logs load is +-$14,000. I do not need a fowarder that can carry 5 tons,,,,I,ll never carry that heavy anyway.... ( a nice and warm -25 degree this morning.....inside coffee is good..) see you.
                                        Roger

[RSteiner]

The Ford 8N I used in the woods for over 20 years did not have very good brakes but was a nice wide wheel base heavy tractor.  One the occasions I drove down steep slopes with a trailer or log arch on the back I don't remember having any problems with the load pushing the tractor sideways.  The brakes were another matter.

With the Kubota which is a few hundred pounds lighter but better brakes I have not yet had a problem making down hill turns.  When in 4WD you have much better braking than when in 2WD and you can go much slower down hill.  The Ford had one speed range with 4 forward gears and one reverse, the Kubota has two speed ranges with 4 forward gears and one reverse in each range.  In low range you can creep up or down and in 4WD have the front axle help hold you back.

Have the rear wheels set at the widest positions possible when you go into the woods, just a few inches in width can make a world of difference in stability.  I moved mine after using it for a year in the woods and could not believe the difference in how the tractor felt on uneven ground. 

As far as tires go the industrial tires will do less damage to a lawn than ag. tires.  In the mud and snow industrial tires will fill up faster but that can be offfset by a good set of tire chains.  If your snow plowing has no steep hills you can get by with industrial tires.  Industrial tires I think are wider than ag tires giving you better performance in sand but less traction in snow.  The ideal situation would be to have a set of turf tires on rimes and a set of ag tires on rims so you could have whatever tire you needed.

All of the smaller logging trailers are set-up for 8 foot logs.  I have been considering building a log trailer where the axels could be adjusted to accomodate 12 foot logs.  I made one trailer that can handle 9 foot logs or cut up firewood.  It can hold 1/2 a full cord or around a 2,000 lbs load.  My smaller tractor has not had a problem hauling it around in our woods in New Hampshire.

Take it slow and easy and you will not have any problems.

Randy

[sbishop]

my Honda foreman 400cc atv, log arch with 2 other wheels in the back if the logs are to heavy

welcome to the forum, do you have any pics of your setup?

Sbishop

[SwampDonkey]

I don't know if it is the same in Quebec as in New Brunswick as far as taxes on farm machinery. If you purchase a tractor with 60 HP or more, no tax. Just a thought if you have not purchased a tractor yet. I did not read all the thread before posting.

[Stephen Alford]

Hi Roger; the tax break that SD mentioned applies here in PEI as well or at least it did when I bought my tractor. One thing you should consider is cab or no cab.  I would opt for the cab if possible.  Gives you shelter, a place to get warm or cool. The advantage of no cab is you can fit in most garages without making a mess. I use skidder tires and have included some pics in my gallery of some of the modifications. In my situation short unit is benifical. The hydraulic winch mounted on the front works for me. I will not try to post pics here for a bit as I fear the dreaded ban gun, I have not been shot at but believe the spinal shivers were from the crosshairs. Stephen.

[beenthere]

.................................... I will not try to post pics here for a bit as I fear the dreaded ban gun, I have not been shot at but believe the spinal shivers were from the crosshairs. Stephen.

I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to get across....what dreaded ban gun... what crosshairs??