Colorado pines, use? beetle problem

[Ron Scott]

It's a Bad Time to Be a Tree

February 15 – The Casper Star-Tribune has reported that, according to US Forest Service officials, mountain pine beetles may wipe out all of Wyoming's mature lodgepole pines within five years.

According to Susan Gray, a forest health specialist with the agency, the beetle infestation has hit all of the state's forests and doubled in size since 2006 to around 780,000 acres.

Forest Service officials blame the outbreak on the lack of extremely cold temperatures in recent years, which kill beetle larva and keep the species in check. Other factors are "overstocked" tree stands in the state's forests and the uniform age of trees across the forests.

For more information, visit the Casper Star-Tribune website.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah when you see something like that occuring for the first time in recorded history (all be it short), you have to wonder how some folks can play down climate change eh?

[pappy19]

Sorry to disagree with you "climate change" folks, but with Lodgepole pine after 60-100 years, they are looking for a place to die. There are logging methods that can be used to keep them in check but the Forest Service takes too long to get anything done logging wise and the state forests, except for Idaho, don't have a clue. We used a "green chain" method of continually logging and leaving green cut trees in the woods to lure the bark beetle into the freshly cut timber. Once the beetles were in there we watched closely as to their larval stages and when they were ready to fly again, we cut more green timber. At the end of their annual cycle, we hauled those infested trees to the mill and thus captured most all of that years infestation and kept them in cut trees. You can do the same thing with almost any species that has a large bark beetle infestation, including pinion pine and limber pine. I've done it and it works. All it takes is the cooperation with loggers and foresters and the mill. It ain't no secret and these infestations aren't being caused by global warming. They have occurred for hundreds of years.

[SwampDonkey]

Well if they end up in the jack pine where they over lap with lodge pole, then we can judge it from there. It's likely theye won't, because it has been real cold up there at times, but in the last few days not real cold at all. Who knows what will take place. But, if they hit the Jack pine they will be here eventually if the climate is mild enough, and we never had it before. But, as I said it ain't here yet. Tends to be bitter cold in the northern prairies, so chances are the cold will knock it out.

[Ron Scott]

Mountain Pine Beetle Infestation. Note the red color of the infected lodgepole pine. Lewis and Clark National Forest near Neihart, Montana, 9/09.

 



 

[Tom]

I just can't help but believe that a market for stuff like that couldn't be created if there were money available and some restrictions relaxed.  If nothing else those trees could be cut into poles, posts, or sawed into fence boards and stored.  Seems it would be better to ship that kind of stuff off shore rather than give up our best. 

This new bio market might just be the ticket, if they can get it going fast enough.   I have a cousin who is putting a lot into it.  He was a logging company for pulp and sawlogs.  Now he can't make his way and is putting the last of his resources into Bio mass.   If Bio mass doesn't work, he says his kids will have to find something else to do.  He's too old to try again.

[Magicman]

In many areas they are starting to be blown down.  What a mess.  One place where my son got a 6 point bull elk in '07, is a jungle now.  You simply can't even crawl through it.  The elk have completely abandoned it.

I looked at it in October.  All of that timber/lumber going to waste....

[beenthere]

It would cost a fortune in taxpayer money to get it outta there and to where it could be utilized. It won't pay for itself, being such a low-value use.

It has been a problem for many, many years.

[Tom]

Why would it have to be Taxpayer money?

[tughill]

Am I understanding correctly that most of this timber is on public (forest service, or BLM?) land?  Also someone mentioned 20k$ per acre for land in Colorado...is that just in the fancy resort/vacation areas? What does land cost for larger tracts out there, say farm/ranchland or forestland, or some combination thereof?  And what is considered a large tract, for that matter? 

I'm just curious, what things are like in different areas...up around here you would be doing well to get 2000$ an acre for any tract of land more than 20 acres...mostly 50+ acre parcels are in the 300-1200$ per acre range, although taxes here in NY are high.  And yes if you look at realtor websites, you will see land advertised for much more$$...but very little actually sells at those prices.

[Gary_C]

Am I understanding correctly that most of this timber is on public (forest service, or BLM?) land? 

Unfortunately a high percentage of the forested land in the western states is owned by the feds and even though the USFS and BLM knows how to manage the land, they are hog tied by the courts and a meddling congress into a no-management prescription. Since most of the rest of the land is held by small private landowners and a few large ownerships like Ted Turner and some other wealthy individuals, there is little land available for sale. So with all the high fliers and holywood types looking for a forest retreat, that makes for some very high prices for even the poor land.

[spencerhenry]

the bark beetle problem as been discussed at great length in other threads. it is being worked on both on private land and public land, by big contractors, and small contractors. $35 per tree is good money as long as it is not back yards.
 there is one big problem, limited demand for the wood. stud mills buy it, pellet mills buy it, and small operators like me mill a few loads a year. but we are talking about such an incredibly large amount of wood in a state where one of the few production mills is 5 hours away or more. there is alot of high quality timber, and alot of junk that has no other use than fuel. the logs are sorted and sold accordingly.
 there is alot of federal and state and private money going into this, but it is all after the fact, the trees are already dead. this is a clean up job only.
 colder winters will NOT kill the beetles off. the biologists say that it takes weeks of far below zero average temperature to kill them. we might get some 25 below zero nights, but a day that doesnt get above zero is rare. the temps need to kill the bugs DONT HAPPEN WHERE THE TREES GROW. and in alot of areas where the beetles are, the snow level can be several feet deep, under the snow a few feet, the temp never gets that cold.

[edwardj_]

I am up in northern Alberta, Canada..  we have an area designated as a "Natural Area."  That means no cutting of trees of any kind.  The pine bugs have killed (was told by a forestry rep in the area) 90%+ of the pine trees there.  I have asked to get permission to go in and take out some of the bug killed trees and have been turned down.  They have cut and burned a lot of trees from small clumps in the past 2 years.  All too little too late.  What I dont understand is why the govt wont let citizens go in and pull out the bug killed trees?  I know that is most of the trees but there are still unnafected areas that may be saved.  Not all of it is large enough to mill but some of it is and others can be used as posts and firewood.  I think someone needs to pull their head out of their ass (pardon my french?) and let us help. 

[chucker]

  SOMETIMES A SITUATION LIKE THIS JUST CALLS FOR MOTHER NATURE TO HAVE HER OWN WAY!! she might just open up and drop a match in the middle of the site and be done with it?? then we will hear all kinds of (no punn ment) wood a, cood a or shood a great statements coming from our forest minded facets of government with a better plan ............just remember the great choices that were set for yellow stone, or a few other places that should of been cleaned up, or loged over, or should of been ?

[BaldBob]

Back in the 70's we had a MPB infestation that wiped out most of the Lodgepole pine and a significant amount of the younger Ponderosa (6-18"DBH)  in the Blue Mountains of NE Oregon.  We were able to control it somewhat using the green chain method that Pappy described, but eventually the populations of beetles built up so much on adjacent unmanaged USFS stands that we were overwhelmed.  We found that Young Ponderosa stands could be basically "beetle proofed" through judicious thinning prior to infestation.  However, that wasn't especially effective for Lodgepole, which doesn't have the ability to "pitch out" the beetles (no matter how free of stress the Lpp trees are) like PP does.

For a while, early in the salvage effort, we had a strong market for much of the blued pine as paneling which we labeled "Blue Mountain Rustic".  However, it didn't take long for that look to become somewhat trite and the market soon shriveled up.

Infestations such as the the one in CO & WY as well as those in Alberta and BC (the latter two make CO & WY's look like a drop in the bucket) are not at all unique to the current climate era. Beetle infestations like the current one have probably been around almost as long as Lpp has been around.  As someone previously alluded to, once there are large expanses of even aged Lpp all 60+ years old and over 8-9"Dbh its not a question of IF there will be a major MPB outbreak sometime in the next 10-40, years its a question of WHEN. How do you think all those large expanses of even aged stands of Lpp got established? There is ample evidence that most of those areas succumbed to a previous MPB outbreak or were killed by the wildfires that often follow such outbreaks. Remember that Lpp is fire adapted, relatively short lived, shade intolerant. and generally needs mineral soil to regenerate.

[JBS 181]

Go to google earth and look at some of this area. You will soon see the vast amounts of dead timber. Yes, all that brown or rust color in those forested areas is dead

[woodtroll]

With all the mismanaged resources, and dried up markets (CO. most of WY.) I would like to complement the Black Hills NF for an aggressive undertaking. They are harvesting as fast as possible. Thinning PP stands to health vigorous levels. It should reduce the bug problem. That being said they still have wilderness areas that they can not touch, but the bug can and is.
Lesson learned do not let industry die out. They will be needed.
Use this stuff for fuel? Who wants to spend $ on a short time fuel sources. Spend hundreds of thousands on a cogen plant and in a few years have no mature  or remaining dead trees to feed it.

[Gary_C]

With all the mismanaged resources, and dried up markets

Lesson learned do not let industry die out. They will be needed.

Has this country learned a lesson? Or will we muddle through this and then say "see, we don't need them anymore" and just continue with the mismanaged resources. 

[chucker]

  LOGGING!!  the back bone to wiping your azzz with the chance for a splinter... try it with grass paper? 

[Jasperfield]

I was in Ft Collins this past August and helped cut a timber frame exclusively from beetle killed Lodgepole Pine.

It is perfect for timber framing. Strong, straight, easy to work, and not necessarily soft.

I worked on these timbers for a week and didn't notice any blue stain.

North central Colorado is a long, long way out there.