Colorado pines, use? beetle problem

[Brad_bb]

I recently spoke with my cousin who has a home in Fraser, Co. near Winterpark.  Their property has a ton of pine trees which she calls lodgepole pines.  I'm not sure if that is the actual species name?  Anyway she tells me that out there they have an epidemic of beetle infestation that is killing trees all over the mountains and it's brown everywhere.  She says anywhere that is not sprayed is decimated with brown lodgepole pine.    She says it costs $35 per tree to get them cut and taken away.  Seems like most are ending up as firewood.  I'm into timberframing.  Are these trees good for anything other than firewood, like timber framing or furniture wood?  Are there mills out there milling this stuff?  Is the price very cheap for this wood?  She says it must be with all that is currently being cut and hauled out.  Hauling is probably the biggest cost in the removal I'm sure.  She would rather see her trees(and others) used for better than firewood.  Can anyone shed some light on this?  Any sawers out there want to comment?  I'm not sure if it would be worth hauling back to me in Chicago, but I guess it would depend on it's quality.  Another cousin of mine out there in the same area has a landscaping business and he's taken down a bunch of trees, but they were used for firewood.

[Haytrader]

Brad,

I am not quite "out there" but am closer than some. I believe there is a species called lodge pole. I have built a lot of feedlot fence with it. Long and straight and not to big of diameter is what I am used to seeing. A 16' might be 6" or 7" on the big end and 4" or 5" on the small end. Surely they get bigger than that though.

[Brad_bb]

She's telling me that on her property they range from 8" to 20" at the base.    I was thinking a 15-20 incher might be somthing to work with as posts or ?  Are there any mills out there that cut them for boards?  Is the wood good enough for that? 

[beenthere]

Brad
Many tax dollars are going into researching ways to utilize this bug killed Lodgepole pine. And you are right, hauling it out is one of the big expenses. The trees are not big, but make good poles for log cabin wood. And if heat is needed, makes firewood....but not like the denser hardwoods, although pound for pound, gives about the same heat.  These trees make great dimension lumber  .. 2x4 and 2x6..  The economics is just not there, to pay for removal and manufacturing costs.

Our CO member with the USFS may have some good info to add to this, or correct me if I'm wrong    We also had a writer who was involved, and believe out of Montana. Maybe she will see this too.

[Rocky_Ranger]

I believe they are up to 850,000 acres of dead lodgepole in Colorado, and will go higher.  9 out of 10 trees will be dead within 3 - 5 years.  Plenty of stock, no market.  There is a new pellet mill going in west of Frasier, should be in operation soon.  There are some big lodgepole pine dieing on the stump now, more to follow.  There are great heaps and piles of logs just waiting to get cut up for firewood.  They make excellent post and poles, tight rings for lumber too.  Colorado State Forest Service would love to talk to somebody wanting to come in and work some of this up.  USFS would too.  Paying $35 per tree is cheap compared to what I've heard paid, just goes to sow how valuable a lumber market/timber program is...........

Wyoming lodgepole is dieing too, just not as many acres yet - wait a year or so.........

[submarinesailor]

I was wondering about what held this beetle in check before now.  Was it cold weather?   Would a normal winter, colder than the last 5, knock them back a little?  Yes, I know it’s been cold.  But, on the average I think this winter has been slighter warmer than the 30 year average.

Was wondering out loud.

Bruce

[Loghead]

First question I would ask is can this wood be brought across state lines ? do they have to be sprayed or debarked?
Bark beetle tracks look cool for log house work but wouldnt most logs also have blue stain as well?
 just a thought.

[Rocky_Ranger]

Yep, the full of blue stain.  The beetle carries it and that's what kills the trees.  State line?  Good question for CSFS, I doubt Wyoming would care since they are eat up too.  If you haul east or south you'll need plenty of diesel to make that trip.

Why now for the outbreak?  Probably a combination of things; bad drought in 2000 - 2003, mature and over mature trees 'cause we ran out the loggers in the late '80's (we being collective in all sharing the blame), Global warming - maybe even the amount of ultraviolet light getting into the stands of lodgepole, time to aggravate the settlers, etc. 

To kill them with cold would require a cold snap from relative warmth to -40 degree F for a period of two weeks or more - highly unlikely.  They've been here lots longer than man, will be here once we is all gone.....

[deeker]

Bradd_bb the lodgepole is a great tree!!!  It is used for furniture wood, fence poles and paneling when it has the blue stain.
I would be interested in it if your not, I am in central utah.  I have cut a lot of it for paneling, the customer has to dry it and  t&g it.  Don't be afraid to try using it.  The blue stain does not weaken the wood, but makes it look kind of like blue denim after several washings.



Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts

[Gary_C]

I was sure that Rocky Ranger could give you some answers on this lodgepole pine. I actually looked into buying some timber sales in Colorado a few years back. To echo what he said, I had trouble finding markets for the wood. For me to make it work, I would need to have a market for the low grade material like a pulp mill and there is little to be found. The firewood market is flooded with wood. And to haul the logs to markets would not be worthwhile.

In spite of that, I felt there was an opportunity for someone with their own mill to make value added pine products from all that wood that is available. There was an article in the Woodmizer magazine about a guy perhaps in Montana that was doing well by teaming with a logger and cutting right in the woods. However a person would need a base or home of operations and that would take some land which is not easy to find. Plus you would practically have to move and live there.

In your case, if your cousin could provide you with some space to operate, it could work out. I do not know about the shipping all the way back to Illinois though. 

[Furby]

Shipping is the deal killer in everything I've looked into the past couple years.
Bio fuel is one use for the low grade, but it still needs to be shipped as well.

[J_T]

 What part of Co we talking about  Around Rifle and Silt and there about it is another world It is worth a trip summer time that is . There was a fellow that made a few posts on the FF that must of worked that are as he was talking about hauling on some of those roads  Furby take a trip up Uncle Bobs Mountian near Silt there some poles up there 

[Brad_bb]

Ya'll are only confirming the impression I had initially...That given the hauling costs, and the problem of potentially spreading the beetles or stain, would probably not be worth it.  I'd like to see what that blue stained paneling (I assume he meant T&G boards) looks like.  It might be good if you lived there and wanted to mill on your own all the material you could use for a long time for a low price.  It's still alot of work though to fell them and load them.

[Rocky_Ranger]

The only hope I see for lower transportation costs is rail service.  One plan I heard of (talking about falling and bucking) called for a certain county to only charge $2.00/tree to off load the logs on site.  If you could provide a place to dump logs for free it would be a windfall to the folks with dead timber.  In other words - they'll give you the trees delivered on site.  Of course the catch is the extreme price of real estate there, probably $20,000/acre on the low end.  You need an uncle or aunt with a ranch.  And, you need to like cold, snow, strange folks, expensive living, and hard work.........

[Rocky_Ranger]

Oops, I was off on the infestation.  It grew 500,000 acres last year and is over 1.5 million acres now.  That might include Wyoming too but I doubt it, now they say every lodgepole (but it won't be every lodgepole) will be dead in five years.  One reason it won't be every lodgepole is that earlier we had some forward thinking forestry types who actually MANAGED lodgepole and diversified the age classes - i.e. clearcut some & thinned some.  Now we have some fine lodgepole stands up 1- 20' high, or thinned to about 80 sq feet BA, or thinned to increase the aspen stocking, and they are not showing signes of beetle infestations.

[deeker]

Brad_bb, the stain comes for the trees already being dead.  A natural decay, as told to me by the USFS biologist.  It does not spread from tree to tree.  The longer I  let my ponderosa logs sit with the bark on and uncut the more blue stain they have.  They have been cut for a year and half.  The first stain showed up after a full year. As for the "worms" they are dead as soon as the logs are cut up.  They dry out.  Juicy little buggers though....fish might live 'em.  But I use only lures and flies, the occasional "dupont spinner" when required.   A 15 second fuse is best........   just kidding.

Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts

[nsmike]

I was at the Log & Timberframe home show, and heard bue stained pine, refered to as denim pine. I have to give who ever thought of that credit for marketing inovation.
Mike

[Brad_bb]

I thought blue stain came from mold.  Mold spores often carried by the beetles.

[Ron Scott]

This might be of interest to some.

Bark Beetle Task Force Launches Campaign

The Bark Beetle Information Task Force in Routt County, Colo. has launched a “Blue Stain Campaign” to encourage the use of beetle-killed lodgepole pine in house construction.  Formed in 1999, the task force includes members from local, county, state, and federal entities, including the Medicine Bow-Routt National Forests and Thunder Basin National Grassland.  The group is hosting several seminars this year.  The first, on Feb. 21, will be a roundtable of local business people who make or use wood products.  Other public seminars in March, April, and May will include presentations from blue stain experts, researchers, and economists, as well as tours of local businesses using blue stain wood. 

[tonich]

It grew 500,000 acres last year and is over 1.5 million acres now.  That might include Wyoming too but I doubt it, now they say every lodgepole (but it won't be every lodgepole) will be dead in five years.  One reason it won't be every lodgepole is that earlier we had some forward thinking forestry types who actually MANAGED lodgepole and diversified the age classes - i.e. clearcut some & thinned some. 

RR,
Are they all (most of them) artificial plantations?

[Rocky_Ranger]

The ones that are diversified age classes, for the most part, are naturally regenerated lodgepole.  I've left Colorado (for now) but before I left I/we decided to put a mixture of species back into the regenerated areas (read:clearcuts).  It won't work everywhere but where it does it will help control the spread of beetles in the next generation of forest.  We put in some Doug fir & ponderosa pine "plugs" but the lodgepole naturally regenerates themselves.  We'd cut it out, burn it good and hot and then plant.  Some of these older stands that are 10 - 30 feet high and have been thinned will make it through this outbreak.   I'm hoping to follow those forward thinking folks of 20 years ago who now have produced the only long-term, surviving stands of lodgepole pine for the future.  In fact, I know of no "managed" stands that have been wiped out, maybe some endemic losses but not the whole mountainside as is happening now........

[wldhoss]

I live in Idaho and we have plenty bug killed lodgepole pine. In fact I can't recall any area that isn't infected. And it isn't over yet. There is limited interest in logging these areas.  End products are, firewood, fence products and house logs. Its expensive to jump through all the hoops the Forest Service demands. The number of large diameter trees for use as house logs is small. And you have to do something with all of the small stuff.

I have plans to build my own home from bug killed pine and it is a challenge to figure a way to get permission from the FS to harvest the trees that I will need. I can get a pole permit and cut 7" trees for about a $1 each or 9" trees at $1.50. Nothing larger than 9" can I cut. If I buy a firewood permit from the FS I can cut 7" and under and haul it out any length or any larger tree than 7" diameter has to be cut and hauled no longer than 8'. In the old days they would sell "Green Slip Sales".  It was a timber sale based on per tree pricing. You could hunt and search for your trees to fill the sale contract price.  That would be nice to use again.
This beetle mostly kills the larger trees and leaves the 2-3" trees to live on.  I was in the Frasier Valley of  Colorado in December, my brother lives there. There is interest in a pellet fuel plant that will be in operation soon. Most of the logging there is in private land and is more about fuels reduction.  This area, as most all bug killed areas will burn.  The FS is conducting a study of this area,Grand County, to establish a basis to apply to other infected areas of the country. This area has very high land values and large numbers of expensive ski and vacation homes dispersed among the pines.  These homes will not be saved when the fires come. I worked on the Idaho fires last summer. Idaho lost 2 million acres from fire. I got a inside view on how wildland fires are managed.  Over 50% of the FS budget is spent on suppression. And 50% of that money is said to be wasted. Weather is the only event that puts a large fire our. We slow it down and it steer around.  Our fires are usually lightning caused where perhaps dozens of fires start overnight from hundreds of lightning strikes. 
Kind of a long post for my first post, but I wanted you to know whats up.  I enjoy you all, Jim

[Rocky_Ranger]

There's a very good article in the Leadville Colorado paper this week, the Leadville Chronicle.  You'll have to search and open it up, I believe it's on the front page.  Gives a clue as to how one community is looking to make lemonade out'a lemons........

[Dakota]

Here's what it looks like on the wall.
 

Dakota

[deeker]

Dakota, that looks great!!!  Cannot really tell any difference from ponderosa blue stain.  Is it t&g?  What type of finish did you put on it?  Keep up the great work.

Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts

[Rocky_Ranger]

Most folks probably don't know but lodgepole that is quarter sawed gives a shimmering dimple-like finish to the wood.  It's beautiful whenever or however it's cut in my view, just hope somebody can come in and not send the majority of it to a chipper/shredder......

The pictures of the stuff posted look great!

[Dakota]

Deeker,

It is T&G.  The finish is a clear polyurethane.
Dakota

[Ron Scott]

Sen. Procures Funds to Address Beetle Epidemic in Colorado

January 17 – The Rocky Mountain News has reported that the US Forest Service and others will receive $12 million in emergency funding to address the mountain pine beetle epidemic in Colorado's lodgepole pine forests. Senator Wayne Allard (R) secured the money, which includes $8 million for the Forest Service and $4 million to reduce beetle-killed trees on state and private lands.

According to the paper, the funding announcement comes a day after Colorado forestry officials said that new aerial surveys reveal that pine beetles have consumed 1.5 million acres of lodgepole forest, and that remaining adult lodgepole forests will likely be dead in Colorado within 3 to 5 years.

For more information, visit the Rocky Mountain News website.

To read a press release from Sen. Allard, visit his website.

[spencerhenry]

i live in colorado where all our lodgepole will be dead in a few years. in some areas the trees are of good quality, in some areas not. standing dead lodgepole is almost all i cut. almost all of it has blue, but not all. the blue stain does not harm the wood from a structural standpoint, and the blue does not kill the tree. the blue is a fungus that the beetles carry with them. intermountain resources buys all the timber sales in the winter park area that are on federal or state lands. they truck it about 5 hours to their mill in montrose colorado. there it is made into studs. the very best logs are used for log houses. it is a pretty wood, relatively stable wood, mills nicely, and is suitable for many uses. there is a huge volume of it, so prices are not great, but if you get paid to cut it, well then it can be profitable. last i checked prices were around $300 to $325 per mbf net scale. i buy small amounts, and do tree removal, and small scale logging. if i was within 50 miles of some trees to be taken, i would gladly take them out for $35 a piece. alot more if i have to deal with slash.

[solodan]

Lodgepole makes nice lumber, it is also makes nice firewood.  No kindling needed just split and light with a match in a few weeks. Lodge pole goes for about $250/ cord here. It grows a little bigger here too, and though it is small for the pines out our way a mature tree probably averages 24"dbh.

[Kevin]

APTN just had a show on this last night.
1st nations are building homes with these trees.

http://www.aptn.ca/index.php?option=com_wse&task=view&id=720770

[ErikC]

  There's a small business here in N CA that produces peeler cores with small diameter pine from thinning plantations and the like. I am sawing a bunch that are too big for that into lumber that will be resawn into blanks for big dowels that are used in landscaping and tree planting. Maybe this is a potential use for some of this thats on the smaller side?

Erik

[Brad_bb]

If the pine were cut into T&G, would you be able to sell it further East?  Could it be sold cheaper than normal(because the logs can be had cheaper than normal)?  Perhaps you could increase sales by flooding those markets with the cheaper material?    I'm sure the current suppliers would hate it, but geez, hate to see all that good wood go to waste.  I'm sure all of that would have to be kiln dried to kill bugs etc to make sure they weren't spread.  I could use T&G when I go to build my timberframe house and workshop over the next few years.  I don't know what local prices are now, but I'm sure it's not cheap.  I'm always looking for a good deal.  Timberframers like to use it on floors, walls and rafters as the first sheathing layer.  It will be visible on the ceilings and they want that look.  The real roof and floor then go over that.

[spencerhenry]

there are no beetles in the wood, they kill the tree and move on. if the tree still has bugs in it when it is cut, the will fly when it gets warm, or when the log is debarked/ milled, the larvae die. the wood is not going to waste. 12 loads a day go to intermountain resources alone. there are other mills in wyoming, denver, and small guys like me that also mill it. anything that is over 6" tip gets skid. the slash is sometimes mulched or ground, and sometimes burned. if someone is interested in getting some of the logs, let me know. the problem becomes trucking, with a self loader getting about $125/hr the cost of the transport quickly becomes more than the value of the timber.

[Rocky_Ranger]

Well Spencerhenry you are sort of right, there are bugs in the wood.  And the blue stain does kill the tree.  The secondary beetles Buprestids and Cerambycids are still in the wood.   Most of the MPB beetles will have flown if the needles are red.  Stacking lodgepole against another lodgepole when the bark is still on can kill the stacked against tree.  You are correct that debarking or sawing will kill the larvae.  12 loads/day ain't a drop in the proverbial bucket (but it does help) when 1.5 million acres is involved.

T & G lumber - you bet, wished it didn't cost so much to transport.  Also makes fine furniture, but that's a whole bunch of furniture to make.....

[Brad_bb]

Is rail car any cheaper?  Maybe make the finished product and ship East by rail car?  I would sure like to use T&G on my projects here in IL.  Not sure I could handle the price here locally, though I haven't actually priced it yet.  My cousin wishes something could be done with their trees besides firewood.   She'd like it if I were able to use them, but it doesn't seem feasable to ship logs.  If it were in finished product form, like T&G, you'd be able to take better advantage of shipping space. 

[spencerhenry]

the blue stain does NOT kill the tree. trees can be hit by bugs and survive. once the bugs have been in there, there is almost always blue. but the tree can continue to live until killed by another more intense beetle infestation, or drought, or chainsaw. there are not bugs "in" the wood. the mountain pine beetle effectively seperates the bark from the tree, but does not bore through the wood. in the 5 to 10 thousand lodgepoles i have cut, only a handful have had any insect  damage to the wood. usually those trees had been dead for at leat 10 years. by the time the tree turns orange, the bugs are usually gone on to the next tree, but last year where i was cutting, the leave trees (theoretically without bugs) were turning orange in march. typically the mountain pine beetle doesnt fly until around july 1. i dont buy it, nor do i buy the theory that the beetle only get trees over 6" dia. i have cut plenty of trees smaller that have bugs in them, but it is not nearly as common. the only areas of green trees that we have in grand county, are the regen from clearcuts of yesteryear, most are in the 3 to 4" range.

[Rocky_Ranger]

http://www.pinery.org/pinebeetle.htm

I'm talking "round head" and "flat head" borers, not bark beetles.  That's what makes the round or oval holes in the wood after the tree is killed - roundheads and flatheads.....

I agree with you on smaller trees, I've seen em in trees broomstick size.

[SwampDonkey]

Here's an article from Canadian Forest Service

[KnotBB]

This from the USFS:  http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/Volume_1/pinus/contorta.htm

Lodge Pole grows well in volcanic soils where other trees won't

Frieght on shipping timbers from the west coast to midwest is about $3000 for a truck load .  So from the Rockies is should be less depending how far south you goto source.  A load would be around 15,000 to 20,000 bdf+ depending how dry the wood was .  Your paying by the truck not by weight. 

One of the control measures that's been used to save trees, not control bettles, has been to maintain forest vigor by selective cutting. 
Millions and millions of railroad ties were hand cut, flatened two sides with a broad axe stored behind a *DanG and sent down the rivers with the spring run off.  Imagine 10-20,000 ties hurding down a caynon in one big gush. The trees cut were selected by size to fit the use, smaller and larger trees were left.  Young vigorous trees, when the tops were killed, can turn a new top and thus the tree was "saved". 

There is a small cottage industry using standing dead Lodge Pole (Jack) pine making rustic furniture.  In general the areas is grows in are low density population ones.   thus not a lot of local demand. Blue stained pine is also called "Blue Pine" to market it.  It's a harder wood than Ponderosa and is used extensivly for framing lumber where it grows.  I've seen a few trees that would reach 30" dbh but they are rare. One the west coast they compete with D. Fir and Western Hemlock and lose out because of the cost of harvesting.

Steve

[Ron Scott]

It's a Bad Time to Be a Tree

February 15 – The Casper Star-Tribune has reported that, according to US Forest Service officials, mountain pine beetles may wipe out all of Wyoming's mature lodgepole pines within five years.

According to Susan Gray, a forest health specialist with the agency, the beetle infestation has hit all of the state's forests and doubled in size since 2006 to around 780,000 acres.

Forest Service officials blame the outbreak on the lack of extremely cold temperatures in recent years, which kill beetle larva and keep the species in check. Other factors are "overstocked" tree stands in the state's forests and the uniform age of trees across the forests.

For more information, visit the Casper Star-Tribune website.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah when you see something like that occuring for the first time in recorded history (all be it short), you have to wonder how some folks can play down climate change eh?

[pappy19]

Sorry to disagree with you "climate change" folks, but with Lodgepole pine after 60-100 years, they are looking for a place to die. There are logging methods that can be used to keep them in check but the Forest Service takes too long to get anything done logging wise and the state forests, except for Idaho, don't have a clue. We used a "green chain" method of continually logging and leaving green cut trees in the woods to lure the bark beetle into the freshly cut timber. Once the beetles were in there we watched closely as to their larval stages and when they were ready to fly again, we cut more green timber. At the end of their annual cycle, we hauled those infested trees to the mill and thus captured most all of that years infestation and kept them in cut trees. You can do the same thing with almost any species that has a large bark beetle infestation, including pinion pine and limber pine. I've done it and it works. All it takes is the cooperation with loggers and foresters and the mill. It ain't no secret and these infestations aren't being caused by global warming. They have occurred for hundreds of years.

[SwampDonkey]

Well if they end up in the jack pine where they over lap with lodge pole, then we can judge it from there. It's likely theye won't, because it has been real cold up there at times, but in the last few days not real cold at all. Who knows what will take place. But, if they hit the Jack pine they will be here eventually if the climate is mild enough, and we never had it before. But, as I said it ain't here yet. Tends to be bitter cold in the northern prairies, so chances are the cold will knock it out.

[Ron Scott]

Mountain Pine Beetle Infestation. Note the red color of the infected lodgepole pine. Lewis and Clark National Forest near Neihart, Montana, 9/09.

 



 

[Tom]

I just can't help but believe that a market for stuff like that couldn't be created if there were money available and some restrictions relaxed.  If nothing else those trees could be cut into poles, posts, or sawed into fence boards and stored.  Seems it would be better to ship that kind of stuff off shore rather than give up our best. 

This new bio market might just be the ticket, if they can get it going fast enough.   I have a cousin who is putting a lot into it.  He was a logging company for pulp and sawlogs.  Now he can't make his way and is putting the last of his resources into Bio mass.   If Bio mass doesn't work, he says his kids will have to find something else to do.  He's too old to try again.

[Magicman]

In many areas they are starting to be blown down.  What a mess.  One place where my son got a 6 point bull elk in '07, is a jungle now.  You simply can't even crawl through it.  The elk have completely abandoned it.

I looked at it in October.  All of that timber/lumber going to waste....

[beenthere]

It would cost a fortune in taxpayer money to get it outta there and to where it could be utilized. It won't pay for itself, being such a low-value use.

It has been a problem for many, many years.

[Tom]

Why would it have to be Taxpayer money?

[tughill]

Am I understanding correctly that most of this timber is on public (forest service, or BLM?) land?  Also someone mentioned 20k$ per acre for land in Colorado...is that just in the fancy resort/vacation areas? What does land cost for larger tracts out there, say farm/ranchland or forestland, or some combination thereof?  And what is considered a large tract, for that matter? 

I'm just curious, what things are like in different areas...up around here you would be doing well to get 2000$ an acre for any tract of land more than 20 acres...mostly 50+ acre parcels are in the 300-1200$ per acre range, although taxes here in NY are high.  And yes if you look at realtor websites, you will see land advertised for much more$$...but very little actually sells at those prices.

[Gary_C]

Am I understanding correctly that most of this timber is on public (forest service, or BLM?) land? 

Unfortunately a high percentage of the forested land in the western states is owned by the feds and even though the USFS and BLM knows how to manage the land, they are hog tied by the courts and a meddling congress into a no-management prescription. Since most of the rest of the land is held by small private landowners and a few large ownerships like Ted Turner and some other wealthy individuals, there is little land available for sale. So with all the high fliers and holywood types looking for a forest retreat, that makes for some very high prices for even the poor land.

[spencerhenry]

the bark beetle problem as been discussed at great length in other threads. it is being worked on both on private land and public land, by big contractors, and small contractors. $35 per tree is good money as long as it is not back yards.
 there is one big problem, limited demand for the wood. stud mills buy it, pellet mills buy it, and small operators like me mill a few loads a year. but we are talking about such an incredibly large amount of wood in a state where one of the few production mills is 5 hours away or more. there is alot of high quality timber, and alot of junk that has no other use than fuel. the logs are sorted and sold accordingly.
 there is alot of federal and state and private money going into this, but it is all after the fact, the trees are already dead. this is a clean up job only.
 colder winters will NOT kill the beetles off. the biologists say that it takes weeks of far below zero average temperature to kill them. we might get some 25 below zero nights, but a day that doesnt get above zero is rare. the temps need to kill the bugs DONT HAPPEN WHERE THE TREES GROW. and in alot of areas where the beetles are, the snow level can be several feet deep, under the snow a few feet, the temp never gets that cold.

[edwardj_]

I am up in northern Alberta, Canada..  we have an area designated as a "Natural Area."  That means no cutting of trees of any kind.  The pine bugs have killed (was told by a forestry rep in the area) 90%+ of the pine trees there.  I have asked to get permission to go in and take out some of the bug killed trees and have been turned down.  They have cut and burned a lot of trees from small clumps in the past 2 years.  All too little too late.  What I dont understand is why the govt wont let citizens go in and pull out the bug killed trees?  I know that is most of the trees but there are still unnafected areas that may be saved.  Not all of it is large enough to mill but some of it is and others can be used as posts and firewood.  I think someone needs to pull their head out of their ass (pardon my french?) and let us help. 

[chucker]

  SOMETIMES A SITUATION LIKE THIS JUST CALLS FOR MOTHER NATURE TO HAVE HER OWN WAY!! she might just open up and drop a match in the middle of the site and be done with it?? then we will hear all kinds of (no punn ment) wood a, cood a or shood a great statements coming from our forest minded facets of government with a better plan ............just remember the great choices that were set for yellow stone, or a few other places that should of been cleaned up, or loged over, or should of been ?

[BaldBob]

Back in the 70's we had a MPB infestation that wiped out most of the Lodgepole pine and a significant amount of the younger Ponderosa (6-18"DBH)  in the Blue Mountains of NE Oregon.  We were able to control it somewhat using the green chain method that Pappy described, but eventually the populations of beetles built up so much on adjacent unmanaged USFS stands that we were overwhelmed.  We found that Young Ponderosa stands could be basically "beetle proofed" through judicious thinning prior to infestation.  However, that wasn't especially effective for Lodgepole, which doesn't have the ability to "pitch out" the beetles (no matter how free of stress the Lpp trees are) like PP does.

For a while, early in the salvage effort, we had a strong market for much of the blued pine as paneling which we labeled "Blue Mountain Rustic".  However, it didn't take long for that look to become somewhat trite and the market soon shriveled up.

Infestations such as the the one in CO & WY as well as those in Alberta and BC (the latter two make CO & WY's look like a drop in the bucket) are not at all unique to the current climate era. Beetle infestations like the current one have probably been around almost as long as Lpp has been around.  As someone previously alluded to, once there are large expanses of even aged Lpp all 60+ years old and over 8-9"Dbh its not a question of IF there will be a major MPB outbreak sometime in the next 10-40, years its a question of WHEN. How do you think all those large expanses of even aged stands of Lpp got established? There is ample evidence that most of those areas succumbed to a previous MPB outbreak or were killed by the wildfires that often follow such outbreaks. Remember that Lpp is fire adapted, relatively short lived, shade intolerant. and generally needs mineral soil to regenerate.

[JBS 181]

Go to google earth and look at some of this area. You will soon see the vast amounts of dead timber. Yes, all that brown or rust color in those forested areas is dead

[woodtroll]

With all the mismanaged resources, and dried up markets (CO. most of WY.) I would like to complement the Black Hills NF for an aggressive undertaking. They are harvesting as fast as possible. Thinning PP stands to health vigorous levels. It should reduce the bug problem. That being said they still have wilderness areas that they can not touch, but the bug can and is.
Lesson learned do not let industry die out. They will be needed.
Use this stuff for fuel? Who wants to spend $ on a short time fuel sources. Spend hundreds of thousands on a cogen plant and in a few years have no mature  or remaining dead trees to feed it.

[Gary_C]

With all the mismanaged resources, and dried up markets

Lesson learned do not let industry die out. They will be needed.

Has this country learned a lesson? Or will we muddle through this and then say "see, we don't need them anymore" and just continue with the mismanaged resources. 

[chucker]

  LOGGING!!  the back bone to wiping your azzz with the chance for a splinter... try it with grass paper? 

[Jasperfield]

I was in Ft Collins this past August and helped cut a timber frame exclusively from beetle killed Lodgepole Pine.

It is perfect for timber framing. Strong, straight, easy to work, and not necessarily soft.

I worked on these timbers for a week and didn't notice any blue stain.

North central Colorado is a long, long way out there.

[edwardj_]

Up here in Northern Alberta all the trees that I have cut from pine bugs have the blue stain, unless they got the bugs this year.  My Lodgepole pine didnt have the stain as I know they got bugged this summer.  The ones that had holes from last year had a small ring of it.  The trees I have cut that died last year or before have about a 2 inch layer of it on trees 14"+ DBH.

[stumphugger]

Folks are trying to blame a warming climate for the infestation.  Like others have said, LP is a short lived tree.  It is mature at about 60 to 80 years.  The natural cycle is for beetles to hit the mature trees, kill them, and then a fire rips through which releases seed from the LP cones, and the cycle is repeated.

That is all well and good unless you happen to live in the area burning.  The fires will go until it rains or snows and you'll be dealing with smoke for a while.    LP decays fast so the snags start coming down in a couple of years.  This creates that hard to walk through layer on the ground and it'll burn again if the conditions are right.

During the late 80s, we clearcut quite a bit of it.  .  An environmentalist got a group together to lobby successfully to save "the old growth Lodgepole Pine."  They saved it from being logged.  A few years later, it burned up.  Such is the nature of lodgepole. 

Google the Triad Fire. 

[Dakota]

Here is the solution to the beetle kill problem on my land.

 



 

[Jasperfield]

Wow! It looks like they've eaten the roof off and about half of the house.

[Kansas]

When I was building my house, I wanted a nice lighter color wood with some character to use for the ceiling. I looked at the blue stain pine out of  Colorado, even had some samples sent. It was nice looking stuff. I thought it was reasonably priced.  Some of those places advertised some pretty good sized beams too, both in length and size. In the end, I had a chance to get a bunch of box elder locally, and used that.
I think there would be a good market for the blue stain pine.

[mad murdock]

It is a shame that there is so much beetle kill throughout the western parts of US and canada.  Does not need to be.  I work for an aerial application company, who has been involved with testing for the last 9 years, experimenting with different methods of applying a beetle pheromone, to disrupt the beetles in their natural mating cycle.  The experiments met with great success, in the many test plots that we applied the material.  We applied to blocks in California, Oregon, Washington, and Montana.  Results showed a drastic drop in beetle activity.  the problem is that the enviro's, and the beaurocrats who infest the process of managing the vast areas affected, cannot make up their minds to expand the treatment to larger areas, and get the program out of the testing stages, by the time they do, it will be too late, the beetle infestations will have died out because they will have run out of food to keep going, or the forests will have all burned up.  Either way the people get screwed.

[stumphugger]

I am not sure if this is true anymore, but blue stain used to be considered a defect in the log.  The logger/timber owner was docked for it.  It was ironic because when milled, blue stain made the boards more valuable for use as paneling. 

[mtngun]

I was wondering about what held this beetle in check before now.  Was it cold weather?   Would a normal winter, colder than the last 5, knock them back a little?  Yes, I know it’s been cold.  But, on the average I think this winter has been slighter warmer than the 30 year average.

Was wondering out loud.

Bruce

There doesn't seem to be a consensus, but lots of theories.

Smokey the Bear, global warming, decline in bird populations, human caused fires, drought, grazing, non-indigenous plants (like cheatgrass).   Take your pick.     

[Bobus2003]

Here in the Hills there blaming the Drought, allowing the beeetles to get in and with the drought couldn't push enough sap out of the Ponderosa Pine to push out the beetles.. That and the drought had them stressed already so they were easy targets.. There logging like crazy in many parts of the hills now.. Some places leaving only a dozen or so per acre standing.. In the Norbeck Wilderness area (roughly 35000 Acres) we now have 100% Mortality rates.. The USFS's theory of no management is good managment is failing big time now.. They have now brought it a Crew from Montana to Heli Log it since we cant take Timbco's & Skidder's in there.. Much of the Bug wood here is goin to the Mills (Saying its sound wood) I myself am cutting lots of Firewood and House Logs out of it..

[pappy19]

In New Mexico the bark beetle has about wiped out the Pinon Pine. No use as a forest product but the natives eat and sell the Pinon Pine nut. Prices have gone through the roof for pinon pine nuts. They could have been saved by doing the green chain cutting cycle, but the enviro's wouldn't allow any cutting. Now they have alot of firewood until the big fire comes.

[woodtroll]

Cold weather has little affect. Drought combined with IMO (the main reason) over stocking. Trees can only grow so thick, they stress out each other. The weak die off the reminder continue growing. Add a bug that hits when the trees are stressed then you have big problems.

I do not believe they are logging in the Norbeck. They just can't, it's wilderness. Custer State Park, next door, is paying to heli log.
Just wait, it is hitting the trees around Rushmore and the park has no plans to deal with this situation.
Again hats of to the Black Hills NF for doing what they can harvesting full throttle and to industry in the area for utilizing the product.

[SwampDonkey]

The term over stocking is foreign to us Canadian foresters. We had it drilled into us that it was over dense, can't have more than 100 % stocking. Density will be defined pretty much by the site, what it will support. When you survey for stocking it's considered 100 % when all your stocking plots contain at least one commercial tree in the defined plot size.

[woodtroll]

I figure stocking is the amount of growing material that can be sustained on a given sight. These arid stands, it makes a big difference.

[SwampDonkey]

I know the Society of American Forester define stocking as overstocked and understocked, but it represents the upper and lower limits of site occupancy expressed as a percent. I know in stocking charts you'll see 110 %. The stocking chart was derived by tree-area ratio and crown competition factor. Basically, growing space of a tree of said diameter someone figured was in the optimum range for that species. What we look at in my area is somewhat similar, but the plot size of the samples represents the optimum growing space of a fir or spruce. If I hit a fir or spruce in that plot I sample at random, it's a stocked plot and if I get 8 out of ten, the site is said to be 80 % stocked. I can't grasp the concept of being more than 100 % stocked at all. A site will only grow so many trees, just like a bowl can only hold 100 % of it's volume in water. The overflow can't occupy it and the bowl can't be more than 100 %.

[Bobus2003]

Cold weather has little affect. Drought combined with IMO (the main reason) over stocking. Trees can only grow so thick, they stress out each other. The weak die off the reminder continue growing. Add a bug that hits when the trees are stressed then you have big problems.

I do not believe they are logging in the Norbeck. They just can't, it's wilderness. Custer State Park, next door, is paying to heli log.
Just wait, it is hitting the trees around Rushmore and the park has no plans to deal with this situation.
Again hats of to the Black Hills NF for doing what they can harvesting full throttle and to industry in the area for utilizing the product.

Here is the Article from the Rapid City Journal about the Bugs and the plans to deal with them in Norbeck

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news/article_0139f0ec-df69-11de-8bf6-001cc4c03286.html

As for Mt Rushmore..There trying to come up with plans for that now too.. Since they have such high mortality rate in norbeck next door

[mtngun]

Here in the Hills there blaming the Drought, allowing the beeetles to get in and with the drought couldn't push enough sap out of the Ponderosa Pine to push out the beetles.. That and the drought had them stressed already so they were easy targets..

I can't argue with the drought theory.

Climate change has only increased temperatures 1 or 2 degrees which is barely noticeable, however, it also shifts prevailing currents and changes precipitation dramatically.    In many parts of the west we have seen 20% reductions in annual precip year after year with only a few "good water" years.    

If the so-called drought turns out to be a result of warming,  and if the warming-caused drought continues, there will be more bugs and more wildfires.   We can debate whether to log the threatened areas but one way or the other some of our forests will not be forests any more.

[SwampDonkey]

I haven't seen any changes in annual rain fall here, other than a couple years had record highs for rain and later snow. But that doesn't mean much because the records in this area are only for 70 years. And these records replaced records set in the 50's and 70's. With all the snow in the record year (12 feet) , it only amounted to 1/3 of the annual precip.  I don't put a whole lot of stock in the record keeping either, because we have pictures of grandfather on the camp roof shoveling snow and the camp is totally buried snow deep clear to the peek.  Not only that, but the records are mostly kept where people live and not out in the middle of the wilderness. The out back here gets a lot more snow than we do along the river valley. You can snow mobile a whole month longer out there and it's bare grass in here.