Colorado pines, use? beetle problem

[Brad_bb]

I recently spoke with my cousin who has a home in Fraser, Co. near Winterpark.  Their property has a ton of pine trees which she calls lodgepole pines.  I'm not sure if that is the actual species name?  Anyway she tells me that out there they have an epidemic of beetle infestation that is killing trees all over the mountains and it's brown everywhere.  She says anywhere that is not sprayed is decimated with brown lodgepole pine.    She says it costs $35 per tree to get them cut and taken away.  Seems like most are ending up as firewood.  I'm into timberframing.  Are these trees good for anything other than firewood, like timber framing or furniture wood?  Are there mills out there milling this stuff?  Is the price very cheap for this wood?  She says it must be with all that is currently being cut and hauled out.  Hauling is probably the biggest cost in the removal I'm sure.  She would rather see her trees(and others) used for better than firewood.  Can anyone shed some light on this?  Any sawers out there want to comment?  I'm not sure if it would be worth hauling back to me in Chicago, but I guess it would depend on it's quality.  Another cousin of mine out there in the same area has a landscaping business and he's taken down a bunch of trees, but they were used for firewood.

[Haytrader]

Brad,

I am not quite "out there" but am closer than some. I believe there is a species called lodge pole. I have built a lot of feedlot fence with it. Long and straight and not to big of diameter is what I am used to seeing. A 16' might be 6" or 7" on the big end and 4" or 5" on the small end. Surely they get bigger than that though.

[Brad_bb]

She's telling me that on her property they range from 8" to 20" at the base.    I was thinking a 15-20 incher might be somthing to work with as posts or ?  Are there any mills out there that cut them for boards?  Is the wood good enough for that? 

[beenthere]

Brad
Many tax dollars are going into researching ways to utilize this bug killed Lodgepole pine. And you are right, hauling it out is one of the big expenses. The trees are not big, but make good poles for log cabin wood. And if heat is needed, makes firewood....but not like the denser hardwoods, although pound for pound, gives about the same heat.  These trees make great dimension lumber  .. 2x4 and 2x6..  The economics is just not there, to pay for removal and manufacturing costs.

Our CO member with the USFS may have some good info to add to this, or correct me if I'm wrong    We also had a writer who was involved, and believe out of Montana. Maybe she will see this too.

[Rocky_Ranger]

I believe they are up to 850,000 acres of dead lodgepole in Colorado, and will go higher.  9 out of 10 trees will be dead within 3 - 5 years.  Plenty of stock, no market.  There is a new pellet mill going in west of Frasier, should be in operation soon.  There are some big lodgepole pine dieing on the stump now, more to follow.  There are great heaps and piles of logs just waiting to get cut up for firewood.  They make excellent post and poles, tight rings for lumber too.  Colorado State Forest Service would love to talk to somebody wanting to come in and work some of this up.  USFS would too.  Paying $35 per tree is cheap compared to what I've heard paid, just goes to sow how valuable a lumber market/timber program is...........

Wyoming lodgepole is dieing too, just not as many acres yet - wait a year or so.........

[submarinesailor]

I was wondering about what held this beetle in check before now.  Was it cold weather?   Would a normal winter, colder than the last 5, knock them back a little?  Yes, I know it’s been cold.  But, on the average I think this winter has been slighter warmer than the 30 year average.

Was wondering out loud.

Bruce

[Loghead]

First question I would ask is can this wood be brought across state lines ? do they have to be sprayed or debarked?
Bark beetle tracks look cool for log house work but wouldnt most logs also have blue stain as well?
 just a thought.

[Rocky_Ranger]

Yep, the full of blue stain.  The beetle carries it and that's what kills the trees.  State line?  Good question for CSFS, I doubt Wyoming would care since they are eat up too.  If you haul east or south you'll need plenty of diesel to make that trip.

Why now for the outbreak?  Probably a combination of things; bad drought in 2000 - 2003, mature and over mature trees 'cause we ran out the loggers in the late '80's (we being collective in all sharing the blame), Global warming - maybe even the amount of ultraviolet light getting into the stands of lodgepole, time to aggravate the settlers, etc. 

To kill them with cold would require a cold snap from relative warmth to -40 degree F for a period of two weeks or more - highly unlikely.  They've been here lots longer than man, will be here once we is all gone.....

[deeker]

Bradd_bb the lodgepole is a great tree!!!  It is used for furniture wood, fence poles and paneling when it has the blue stain.
I would be interested in it if your not, I am in central utah.  I have cut a lot of it for paneling, the customer has to dry it and  t&g it.  Don't be afraid to try using it.  The blue stain does not weaken the wood, but makes it look kind of like blue denim after several washings.



Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts

[Gary_C]

I was sure that Rocky Ranger could give you some answers on this lodgepole pine. I actually looked into buying some timber sales in Colorado a few years back. To echo what he said, I had trouble finding markets for the wood. For me to make it work, I would need to have a market for the low grade material like a pulp mill and there is little to be found. The firewood market is flooded with wood. And to haul the logs to markets would not be worthwhile.

In spite of that, I felt there was an opportunity for someone with their own mill to make value added pine products from all that wood that is available. There was an article in the Woodmizer magazine about a guy perhaps in Montana that was doing well by teaming with a logger and cutting right in the woods. However a person would need a base or home of operations and that would take some land which is not easy to find. Plus you would practically have to move and live there.

In your case, if your cousin could provide you with some space to operate, it could work out. I do not know about the shipping all the way back to Illinois though. 

[Furby]

Shipping is the deal killer in everything I've looked into the past couple years.
Bio fuel is one use for the low grade, but it still needs to be shipped as well.

[J_T]

 What part of Co we talking about  Around Rifle and Silt and there about it is another world It is worth a trip summer time that is . There was a fellow that made a few posts on the FF that must of worked that are as he was talking about hauling on some of those roads  Furby take a trip up Uncle Bobs Mountian near Silt there some poles up there 

[Brad_bb]

Ya'll are only confirming the impression I had initially...That given the hauling costs, and the problem of potentially spreading the beetles or stain, would probably not be worth it.  I'd like to see what that blue stained paneling (I assume he meant T&G boards) looks like.  It might be good if you lived there and wanted to mill on your own all the material you could use for a long time for a low price.  It's still alot of work though to fell them and load them.

[Rocky_Ranger]

The only hope I see for lower transportation costs is rail service.  One plan I heard of (talking about falling and bucking) called for a certain county to only charge $2.00/tree to off load the logs on site.  If you could provide a place to dump logs for free it would be a windfall to the folks with dead timber.  In other words - they'll give you the trees delivered on site.  Of course the catch is the extreme price of real estate there, probably $20,000/acre on the low end.  You need an uncle or aunt with a ranch.  And, you need to like cold, snow, strange folks, expensive living, and hard work.........

[Rocky_Ranger]

Oops, I was off on the infestation.  It grew 500,000 acres last year and is over 1.5 million acres now.  That might include Wyoming too but I doubt it, now they say every lodgepole (but it won't be every lodgepole) will be dead in five years.  One reason it won't be every lodgepole is that earlier we had some forward thinking forestry types who actually MANAGED lodgepole and diversified the age classes - i.e. clearcut some & thinned some.  Now we have some fine lodgepole stands up 1- 20' high, or thinned to about 80 sq feet BA, or thinned to increase the aspen stocking, and they are not showing signes of beetle infestations.

[deeker]

Brad_bb, the stain comes for the trees already being dead.  A natural decay, as told to me by the USFS biologist.  It does not spread from tree to tree.  The longer I  let my ponderosa logs sit with the bark on and uncut the more blue stain they have.  They have been cut for a year and half.  The first stain showed up after a full year. As for the "worms" they are dead as soon as the logs are cut up.  They dry out.  Juicy little buggers though....fish might live 'em.  But I use only lures and flies, the occasional "dupont spinner" when required.   A 15 second fuse is best........   just kidding.

Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts

[nsmike]

I was at the Log & Timberframe home show, and heard bue stained pine, refered to as denim pine. I have to give who ever thought of that credit for marketing inovation.
Mike

[Brad_bb]

I thought blue stain came from mold.  Mold spores often carried by the beetles.

[Ron Scott]

This might be of interest to some.

Bark Beetle Task Force Launches Campaign

The Bark Beetle Information Task Force in Routt County, Colo. has launched a “Blue Stain Campaign” to encourage the use of beetle-killed lodgepole pine in house construction.  Formed in 1999, the task force includes members from local, county, state, and federal entities, including the Medicine Bow-Routt National Forests and Thunder Basin National Grassland.  The group is hosting several seminars this year.  The first, on Feb. 21, will be a roundtable of local business people who make or use wood products.  Other public seminars in March, April, and May will include presentations from blue stain experts, researchers, and economists, as well as tours of local businesses using blue stain wood. 

[tonich]

It grew 500,000 acres last year and is over 1.5 million acres now.  That might include Wyoming too but I doubt it, now they say every lodgepole (but it won't be every lodgepole) will be dead in five years.  One reason it won't be every lodgepole is that earlier we had some forward thinking forestry types who actually MANAGED lodgepole and diversified the age classes - i.e. clearcut some & thinned some. 

RR,
Are they all (most of them) artificial plantations?