Author Topic: Portential fuel source ideas for a Bio-Mizer (Read 4862 times)

Jeff · « **on:** December 31, 2007, 04:11:45 pm »

How many do you think we can think of? I've been brain storming here on where I might find different alternative sources. My mill wont be running until spring. There are many Amish mills and a couple commercial mills in my normal circles of travel, but being winter, I wonder about the moisture content.

Some of the things I plan on exploring after the holidays are the Harrison and Marion School woodshops, the local kitchen counter making factory here in Harrison, there are some Amish furniture makers within a half dozen miles as well. Maybe all sources of some dry sawdust to mix with mill run. I think sawdust from a place like the counter top shop would be supercharged fuel, with laminate and particle board dust. My other thought is we have a few grain elevators nearby. Is there anything that is considered waste that comes out of an elevator?

We have a few testers on the Forestry Forum and a whole lot of interested members. I'm just wondering how many ideas we can come up with to source fuels that might work.

Another one brought up, when I told my friend form the U.P. Lou about testing was one that he wanted me to ask about. Hes having some pond work done and what is being escavated is pure peat moss. In the past, in the summer he simply burned the piles as they dry quickly one piled up. He says that as it drys that it crumbles to next to nothing and he is convioced it would flow through a hopper. The Thing I thought of when he was talking about digging his ponds, was when he does pond maintanance. He will "drag" the pond bottoms raking out the "seaweed" or underwater vegetation. He says when that dries, it turns to powder. I would guess another potential fuel?

Tom · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2007, 04:47:55 pm »

Why doesn't Lou bag the peat moss and sell it. It is used in nurseries, isn't it, for everything from building up clay and sand soils to rooting medium?

Matter of fact, you could use it on your property as a soil amenity as well as fill for low spots.

stonebroke · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2007, 04:57:36 pm »

Grain dust is fed back to cows. It is just as good as normal grain and you do not have to process it. Beside grain dust is highly explosive and that might not be good for the biomizer.

Stonebroke

Jeff · « **Reply #3 on:** December 31, 2007, 05:05:45 pm »

Quote from: Tom on December 31, 2007, 04:47:55 pm

Why doesn't Lou bag the peat moss and sell it. It is used in nurseries, isn't it, for everything from building up clay and sand soils to rooting medium?

Matter of fact, you could use it on your property as a soil amenity as well as fill for low spots.

Its illegal to excavate peat for sale in Michigan without special permit as it is a wetlands soil. If he could sell it, he would.

Jeff · « **Reply #4 on:** December 31, 2007, 05:07:45 pm »

Quote from: stonebroke on December 31, 2007, 04:57:36 pm

Grain dust is fed back to cows. It is just as good as normal grain and you do not have to process it. Beside grain dust is highly explosive and that might not be good for the biomizer.

Stonebroke

Sure it is. Very fine sawdust is slightly explosive when it exists in the same conditions as grain dust.

thecfarm · « **Reply #5 on:** December 31, 2007, 05:53:35 pm »

There is a mill close by that I could get sawdust for $7 a pickup load.But I would have to fight the horse people for it.That would be the only problem around here.Best bet would be to get it in the summer time and some how keep it for the winters months.

farmerdoug · « **Reply #6 on:** December 31, 2007, 05:57:03 pm »

Jeff, Is it peat moss or peat he is digging? I would think it is peat as peat moss is harvested from the surface in bogs in Canada every few years.

As for the elevator I would look for the screening that have alot of chaff like wheat hulls or soybean pods. That stuff often goes to a fill.

Jeff · « **Reply #7 on:** December 31, 2007, 06:16:38 pm »

I dont know the difference, I guess its peat.

Furby · « **Reply #8 on:** December 31, 2007, 08:18:31 pm »

Yeah, it's peat, and I'd talk to him about getting some to spread on your trails to level them a bit and protect the roots of nearby cedars.
Shouldn't hurt to try and use the peat for fuel, you'll have to screen it. Only thing is it MUST stay dry or it won't feed through the auger on the biomizer.
I know they use peat as a fuel source in other countries.

I'm wondering about lawn clippings using a mulching blade and a bagger.
Only thing is it does compact a fair amount, don't know if it'll feed through the auger.

Jeff · « **Reply #9 on:** December 31, 2007, 08:24:08 pm »

Furby, those trees that you saw that would cause you to be concerned are coming out. The trails will be wide enough not to disturb the remaining trees, but the trails on my property are only meant to be for maintenance and walking

farmerdoug · « **Reply #10 on:** December 31, 2007, 09:09:42 pm »

Jeff,

Peat burns good. They used it in Ireland for years.

Furby,

I think you would need to let the grass clippings dry and then bag them. I am sure that fresh grass clippings are way more than 60% moisture.

Furby · « **Reply #11 on:** December 31, 2007, 09:19:15 pm »

That depends a lot on the type of grass and the length.
I've done a lot of cutting with a mulching blade and it is extremly dry, but yes, there are lots of times cutting long grass that it is very wet.

logwalker · « **Reply #12 on:** January 01, 2008, 12:29:56 am »

I know when I run my 25" wide belt sander that it fills up the dust collector quickly with a heavy packed dust. The table saws also would produce a ready product. So large cabinet shops should be a good source.

Bibbyman · « **Reply #13 on:** January 01, 2008, 10:18:03 am »

They demoed the BioGrinder at the Anniversary Party last fall. I'd think you could scout around local lumber yards and pick up packing material. Or construction sites and pick up cut off ends.

I asked a question before but didn't get an answer on grinding such things as old catalogs, telephone books, etc. How would ground up plastic containers burn in it?

farmerdoug · « **Reply #14 on:** January 01, 2008, 10:26:28 am »

Bibbyman,

That is a couple of things I am going to try. I just have to find a way to grind them right. I have access to alot of cardboard and plastic pots and trays that are junk.

thecfarm · « **Reply #15 on:** January 01, 2008, 06:19:09 pm »

I was at one place I use to work and some guy brought the cardbaord home to burn.He said it worked good but got ALOT of ashes with it.He stopped taking it home.Plastic would probaly work OK,but what about the smell of it?I suppose if you mixed it in.Plastic also burns hot too.

Radar67 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 01, 2008, 06:29:42 pm »

What about the residue the plastic leaves behind? Seems like that would be a pain to clean out. Would it coat the pipes/flue like creosote?

LeeB · « **Reply #17 on:** January 01, 2008, 06:32:04 pm »

I think the EPA might nab you on the plastic.

I wondered about dried horse manure. Mostly hay and not real good for fertilizer. Old hay should also work well if you can grind it.

Jeff · « **Reply #18 on:** January 01, 2008, 07:08:03 pm »

I'm thinking the Bio-Mizer may burn different then what we are used to. I'm thinking more towards Paul's project of running his truck on wood and the way that works as an example versus the operation of an outdoor furnace.

farmerdoug · « **Reply #19 on:** January 01, 2008, 07:12:32 pm »

The Biomizer has an automatic ash removal system. If what you are burning then you increase how often the ash auger operates.

Radar67 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 01, 2008, 07:39:08 pm »

That would be even more reason not to try plastic. The residue might clog up the ash auger and cause a failure.

Ed_K · « **Reply #21 on:** January 02, 2008, 12:48:59 am »

"Plastic burns Hot" I guess. I cleaned up after a jug shoot at a shooting range,got a 55 gal barrel and started the jugs on fire. Kept adding them and soon the barrel melted the plastic oozed out and started a pretty good grass fire

.

Jeff · « **Reply #22 on:** January 02, 2008, 05:35:52 am »

Quote from: Radar67 on January 01, 2008, 07:39:08 pm

That would be even more reason not to try plastic. The residue might clog up the ash auger and cause a failure.

Your assuming there would be a residue formed by inadequate combustion of the material. I wouldn't try to burn pure plastic. I would use it as a power booster mixed with other fuels.

Norm · « **Reply #23 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:46:28 am »

My son races motor cycles and has an endless supply of used tires. Most do not have a steel cord on them and could be ground pretty easily. I thought that the bio-mizer burned at high enough temps that this and plastic would burn just fine especially if mixed with some sawdust or planer shavings.

Radar67 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 02, 2008, 09:08:28 am »

Quote from: Jeff on January 02, 2008, 05:35:52 am

Your assuming there would be a residue formed by inadequate combustion of the material. I wouldn't try to burn pure plastic. I would use it as a power booster mixed with other fuels.

It may be an assumption, but I've not seen any plastic burned that did not leave a residue. The combustion may not have been adequate in all the fires I have been around, but it still leaves enough doubt that I wouldn't try it.

The smell alone is enough to deter burning plastic. Outdoor wood boilers and fireplaces have already been attacked because people don't want to smell the smoke. What do you think neighbors would think about the burning plastic?

I just think there are plenty of other alternatives for fuel to have to use plastic.

beenthere · « **Reply #25 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:24:07 am »

Radar67
Look up "plastofuel" for some process to turn plastic into fuel...it's been done. The Koreans apparantly have a burner that uses plastic pellets for generating energy.

Probably plenty of alternatives, and include recycling plastic into more plastic.....

footer · « **Reply #26 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:53:43 am »

Do any of you guys have any Idea how much heat output you could expect from say a pickupload of sawdust? For example how long could you heat an average house.
I have been heating my house entirely with firewood for almost 20 years, and am getting kind of tired of it.

Bioman · « **Reply #27 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:54:29 am »

Here's what I've found when it comes to burning questionable stuff.

Any questionable fuel we've burned (mainly rubber and coal but I can include corn for this example) has always burned well when the particle size is reduced to something like our sawdust. Even corn was a big mess in our burner until we ground the corn into small particles. It becomes a matter of dilution and proper air/fuel mixture after that.

I'm pretty sure plastic would burn well when mixed with a base product. I've never seen any kind of residue left anywhere in the machine when mixed like I've described.

Bioman · « **Reply #28 on:** January 02, 2008, 10:56:58 am »

Quote from: footer on January 02, 2008, 10:53:43 am

Do any of you guys have any Idea how much heat output you could expect from say a pickupload of sawdust? For example how long could you heat an average house.
I have been heating my house entirely with firewood for almost 20 years, and am getting kind of tired of it.

Dry wood produces 8500 btu/lb. It all comes down to the weight of what you are burning and how efficiently you capture the heat.

It takes about 5 lbs/hr of dry sawdust to heat your typical home. 5 lbs/hr produces about 40,000 btu continuous heat.

Radar67 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 02, 2008, 11:05:01 am »

I read up on that beenthere, thanks.

Based on what I just learned, the plastofuel has been tested with two systems, a coal fired system and a plastic system.

The coal fired system burns at 2000° F to get the EPA emmisions within standard.

The Korean (plastic) testing used temps of 1650° - 2000° to meet the same requirements.

Based on a post from Bioman on the Wood Burner thread:

Quote from: Bioman on May 30, 2007, 12:10:53 pm

The temps can be controlled to any limit within reason. We currently limit to 1600 for longevity reasons. Life of the components drop as the combustion temp limits are increased. We don't have any trouble running the unit up to 2000 degrees, we just don't like to do it long term.

The Bio-Mizer can operate at those temps, but they have limited the temps to 1600° F for longevity of the machine.

The thread also stated that the efficiency of the machine decreases as the temps go higher. (Works best around the 150,000 btu range if I remember correctly.

Based on this, plastic will not burn to EPA emmision standards and I would guess that there would be some residue left over.

It may work by mixing with a base product. I would still be leary about using it. Just my 2¢.

Bioman · « **Reply #30 on:** January 02, 2008, 11:56:37 am »

The 1600 limit is conservative. I routinely run the max temp up to 1850 for some of the tests we've been doing.

We also have to run the temp up higher when using very dry fuels at high load demand because they burn hotter.

Bottom line is we can burn as hot as you want up to 2000, but the higher you go the shorter the life of a couple sacrificial parts (easily replaceable

)

One other concern that needs to be looked into is burning salt treated wood. Salt and high temp in a combustion chamber = corrosion.

Radar67 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 02, 2008, 12:03:17 pm »

I know it is still in testing phase, but what is the estimated life of those sacrificial parts? (at high temps), and what would replacement costs be?

Bioman · « **Reply #32 on:** January 02, 2008, 05:00:44 pm »

This is a pure guess on my part, but probably between 5 and 10 years. Each part should be $50 or less.

Bibbyman · « **Reply #33 on:** January 02, 2008, 06:30:14 pm »

The reason I keep coming back to asking about using common discarded household combustibles is that it’d be nice if a household could pretty much generate the heat needed by consuming such things and print materials, cardboard boxes, pop bottles, milk jugs, plastic Wal-Mart bags, junk mail, etc. It’d be a double whammy for the environment.

Jeff · « **Reply #34 on:** January 02, 2008, 06:51:53 pm »

Thats what I am thinking as well. If you can burn the stuff efficiently with less impact to the environment then sending stuff to a landfill, then why not? I bet the average household could generate a lot of energy, especially if you count the things we do like burning leaves and such. I know that if we could capture the heat just from the leaves that we burn from our yard here, it would be enough for a good share of the winter.

farmerdoug · « **Reply #35 on:** January 02, 2008, 06:59:07 pm »

Alot of people around here already burn their trash. I am their burning barrel supplier.

It is pretty bad when you are at a township meeting and people ask the fire dept representative how to burn legally and them say in a barrel with a screen top. Then they say you can buy burning barrels on Fargo Rd.

So it should be no problem to put it to good use and not have smoldering trash barrels burning it.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #36 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:05:17 pm »

So, how do you get your paper down to a burnable size? I know that the farmers around here used to use newspapers for bedding, and they got all they needed by putting a sign out along the road.

Besides, they don't want any of the slick paper in recyclable stuff. Tons of that stuff come in the mail each day, and then gets sent to the dump. You should be able to heat all day on one Sears catalouge.

Another source is old phone books.

Furby · « **Reply #37 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:07:30 pm »

The biggest problem will be a shredder that can do what you need and actually make pieces rather than long stringy pieces that tends to happen with plastic stuff.

I'm thinking you would need an over sized crosscut paper shredder with a couple of compression rollers at the top to compress the plastic containers, then slice and finally crosscut all as it passes through.
Things like plastic bags won't work as they tend to wrap around the rollers and belive me, you DON'T want to try and clean one of those out of something like that!
The compression rollers could either be wide enough that smaller amounts of paper would simply go through OR make the compression rollers so that they pop off/swing out of the way.

Bibbyman · « **Reply #38 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:12:03 pm »

Has anyone rolled up a Sunday paper and shoved in this thing? How about a pop bottle?

stonebroke · « **Reply #39 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:13:35 pm »

I remember a story about a farmer who made bedding out of old phone books, All he did was run them though a grinder mixer.

Stonebroke

farmerdoug · « **Reply #40 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:18:00 pm »

Bibbyman, You should have tried stuffing a paper in there when we were at the show.

I am sure Mary will keep you up to date with what is happening with the Biomizer. I see she is getting right into the forum over there.

Next she will be here too.

Furby · « **Reply #41 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:23:50 pm »

Bibby will have to request a forum house cleaning if she does come over here, otherwise he'll be needing a BioMizer to heat ~~the saw shed~~ his bedroom.

Jeff · « **Reply #42 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:28:25 pm »

I think Mary is great. Just what we need here.

HI MARY!

farmerdoug · « **Reply #43 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:37:50 pm »

Furby,

I think she has already been here. Why do you think she is looking for a mobile unit to heat the outbuildings.

I feel for you, Bibby.

Oh, Hi Mary.

Furby · « **Reply #44 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:51:53 pm »

Wonder what Bibby would pay for me NOT to send Mary some links now that we can easily contact her.

Jeff · « **Reply #45 on:** January 02, 2008, 08:02:18 pm »

Back to da fuel.

I went to the elevator today. Two in fact. Neither one screens grain or had anything cheap other then one had free corn cops, but they said they couldn't grind them straight without clogging up the grinder. The cheapest thing they had for sale was distiller grain that looked like it would make a super fuel, or fuel additive but at 139 a ton, not viable in my mind for what we are trying to do. but I may get some just to try it.

Norm · « **Reply #46 on:** January 03, 2008, 09:37:39 am »

DG's have value as a cattle feed so that keeps the cost high. We do bale the corn stubble around here for cattle feed, it lowers the fertility of the soil but not too bad. I would think one bale would last a long time if you could find a way to process it to use in the biomizer.

For us it would be very easy to fuel one, the amount of wood that just lays in the woods is huge. For someone in an urban setting I'd think the best would be a way to fuel it with what goes in the garbage now. How satisfying would that be to be able to heat and maybe in the future power your house on the junk mail and leftovers from garbage.

farmerdoug · « **Reply #47 on:** January 03, 2008, 09:33:16 pm »

Norm,

I am going to try to line up hay, straw and corn stover to try in the Biomizer. I know a farmer with a haybuster tub grinder that grinds the above for cattle feed and bedding. I am going to visit him this month and see if the ground material will work in the Biomizer. It may have to be reground but getting it from the big roll bale stage is the hard part anyways.

Norm · « **Reply #48 on:** January 04, 2008, 07:14:35 am »

That's what we do with it here for feed Doug. It goes into a big tub grinder and is mixed with higher protein for the cattle. It would not work for the biomizer but would sure be easier to regrind. Another thing would be the soybean stubble. It is a finer material and always includes a certain amount of beans that went through the combine. I'll bet it would grind easily and have some good btu value.

What I thought about was storing our planer shavings and sawdust in an old feed bin like they use at the hog factories. Just auger it out when you need it. You'd have to dry it before storing but that would be pretty easy during the summer. Then store it for use during the winter.

Bioman · « **Reply #49 on:** January 05, 2008, 12:54:56 am »

We burned some soy stubble and had a little trouble with the bigger strands. It is 'ropey' and will ball up like a small ball of rope. It can then bind up the auger as tight as a stone. Ground slightly finer and it worked great.

Bioman · « **Reply #50 on:** January 05, 2008, 12:55:31 am »

Does anybody have access to bales of switchgrass?

Faron · « **Reply #51 on:** January 07, 2008, 04:18:42 pm »

Jeff, I used to grind straight corn cobs for a hog building. I don't remember how coarse a screen I used, but it didn't clog anything up. I bet if you found a farmer with a portable grinder mixer he could grind them for you. You will probably have to get them before they get wet, though, if they are stored outside. Ours were inside and dry.

farmerdoug · « **Reply #52 on:** January 07, 2008, 09:37:16 pm »

I have found a item to try in the Biomizer.

An elevator by me has some soybean screenings they would love for me to take. It is soybean pieces, hulls and weed seeds, 50 yds in all. I am cleaning a place for it this week. If it does not work then I will have alot of chicken feed.

dundee · « **Reply #53 on:** January 07, 2008, 11:12:03 pm »

We are installing a 2 MW bio boiler for a apple jiuce exporter, 30% of the fuel is from urban tree side pruning then shipped in-situ, the fuel balance comes from lumber off cuts from surounding mills

Richard

Jeff · « **Reply #54 on:** January 09, 2008, 05:00:10 pm »

I wonder what the potential is for this? This is from the Amish furniture factory about 5 miles from us. This is a mixture of dust and shavings of different types. This is all from kiln dried cedar and pine. There is a huge amount of this stuff available through the year. I filled about 5 Bio-Mizer bags with the finer stuff today and I bet the bag ull, packed in, doesn't weigh over 15 lbs. We filled some large bags the Amish fellow gave us with sawdust from the circle sawmill there and I bet those weigh in over 50 to maybe 75 lbs each. definitely wet

Furby · « **Reply #55 on:** January 09, 2008, 07:05:39 pm »

Did ya get any of the curly stuff?

Jeff · « **Reply #56 on:** January 09, 2008, 07:15:48 pm »

Nope, I didnt, but its only 5 miles away. I'm hoping Scott pops in and gives an opinion on what he thinks of how it may burn. I figure since its kiln dried it might be too dry by itself but maybe layering it with other sawdust might work. As for the curly stuff, its paper thin and breaks in your fingers as its so dry. This stuff is also kept under cover from the elements. Being almost all Northern white cedar, I bet the stuff is almost explosive.

Furby · « **Reply #57 on:** January 09, 2008, 07:34:17 pm »

I'll probly have the little unit running before long and was wondering if it would make that stuff small enough for ya to use.
I've got a small amount of White Cedar planer shavings I can try, but they aren't that big to begin with as they are from a table top unit.

farmerdoug · « **Reply #58 on:** January 09, 2008, 07:50:35 pm »

I think the sawdust will burn fine but the curly stuff will probably need to be reduced for better flow though. Looks like a good source of dry stuff to be mixed with the fresh sawdust.

Jeff · « **Reply #59 on:** January 09, 2008, 07:51:19 pm »

We'll do it Furb. I'll get some bigger stuff when yer ready to try it. If we could feed this stuff through with a little bit of speed, it would probably be well worth trying.

stonebroke · « **Reply #60 on:** January 10, 2008, 05:29:29 pm »

Jeff

You could probably damp down the really dry stuff with a little water from a hose , would not take much. Hope you are feeling better.

Stonebroke

farmerdoug · « **Reply #61 on:** January 29, 2008, 04:31:41 pm »

The dryer the better. It looks like up front the Biomizer will need an MC% of 30 or less for the feedstock. If you get really dry fuel you can mix it with wetter fuel.

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Author Topic: Portential fuel source ideas for a Bio-Mizer (Read 4862 times)