Felling own timber to sell

[Dave Shepard]

Around here you can get about $10 over your harvesting costs per mbf for pine.  I guess I ain't goin' to college anytime soon.


Dave

[thecfarm]

Haytrader,and how would I know this? Because I have strayed but realize this is the place to be.Forgive me Jeff.
Dave,I don't want to start a big debate here,but where are you getting your prices from? Pine pulp you may be right,but that's not done by bf.Is the price of pine logs down that much now?When the tops are hauled out for pulp that just cleans up the woods as I say.

[SwampDonkey]

Dave it works when you only paid $3000 for a reliable skidder 20 years ago, you have a 10 year old reliable chainsaw, you own the wood and pay the trucker to move it with his self loader. 

The trouble with most modern equipment is, it's 'valued' a lot more than the wood.  Sorry, but that's counter to my thinking.   

[WDH]

I've noticed now with some of the more modern mills around here, they won't buy logs with buts larger than 20". I don't know if this is by design to entice folks to cut wood sooner or if it's a design flaw and they just can't handle them. :\

The big mills are focused on high production aimed at the average sized raw material.  Cut per hour is king, and really big logs slow them down.  Also, many of the de-barkers are the limiting factor on log size, with 24" max being not uncommon.

[Dave Shepard]

Prices for pine around here range from $100, to $150, at the header, depending on quality. A previous discussion on of logging rates indicated $.13-.175 per board foot is an average cost of harvesting for typical chainsaw/skidder operation. No one is cutting any pine aroun here, that I have seen. If you were high grading the woodlot for all of the select logs and selling to Canada, you could do better, but even those markets have slowed, I have been told. Perhaps a highly mechanized operation can make it profitable. If I am way off base here, don't hesitate to point it out, I am new at this too.


Dave

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't think high mechanization is everything its cracked up to be.  A new grapple skidder is running about $250,000.  Those feller bunchers are over $500,000 and probably much higher.  High end log loaders are probably in the $150,000+ range.  It doesn't take long to have over a million dollars into a small logging show.

The only way to pay back the banker is to have high production.  But, you can't do that in thinning jobs or small timber.  So, you're back to working your butt off to pay for equipment. 

The smaller operator with less equipment can operate on smaller woodlots.  They're about the only ones with good quality timber, since those bigger operations have passed them by.  We've been known to work on just a couple of acres, if the timber supports it. 

I worked for a logger as a procurement forester a good many years ago.  He was struggling to make a buck.  His problem was his log loader.  He had a Prentice loader that was giving him problems and was always in the shop.  He went to an equipment dealer who sold him a really big loader - the kind that is trailer mounted.  He told me the dealer treated him right because he gave him 5 years to pay it back.

The problem was that he could only get about 2 loads of logs out in a days time.  I figured his loading costs were about $50/Mbf.  Other guys were logging for that price.  He tried to push his higher costs onto the landowner and became uncompetitive for timber.  Bottom line is that the higher production equipment put him out of business. 

We're running a 2 man logging crew.  They put out at least 2-3 trailerloads of logs per day as well as pulpwood.  We also have 2-3 truck drivers that will load and buck logs.   They are putting out as much as some crews that are mechanized.

[johncinquo]

Dont worry about the college Dave, I went twice so I have us both covered.   

[WH_Conley]

Ron hit the nail on the head about equiptment costs. A few years ago we had an ice storm, tore up a lot of timber, scared a lot of people that had timber in turning it loose all at once. Three local loggers (the kind that has to have more toys than the next guy)  bought a couple new skidders and a new dozer each. Two of the local loggers kept their older (paid for) equiptment and kept on working. Now the big three are cutting anything they can get in any kind of weather. Can't be making money hauling $400.00 loads of logs on $80,000 trucks. The two little guys added a man at most to their operation, now that the timber has slowed down they just don't replace a man if he quits, take off when it gets too muddy and do maintaince in bad weather.

Been a joke (but true) at the local store, "The people making the most money on timber around here are at John Deere"

[Ed_K]

 I was told last Sunday not to cut any pine as the pine market has stopped. Unless its #1 it dosen't have a home. And I was just getting ready to cut 27mbf of middle road stuff. Only logs moving are hardwood pallet and FIREWOOD.

[Dieseln2stroke]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I walked the land and found on the 10 acres I had about 50+ hemlocks with over a 20inch dbh( Didn't have anything to measure height). Its my uncles land so it seems like a good opportunity to learn. I will be talking with my professors this week about the  project. Another thing is that I am attending Paul Smiths College so I have had a good amount of training(not experience) with logging. Currently I am GOL level one certified and will continue to complete all the levels. Thanks alot

Zach

[Dieseln2stroke]

Well I have 80 hemlocks with over a 20 inch dbh, and I figure I can get anywhere between 2.5-3 logs a piece. I used a biltmore stick for height and a dbh tape for dbh. Which scale would you recommend I use for this situation? And are their any websites with current timber prices? Thanks

[bitternut]

Sure sounds like you are doing a diameter cut, select cut or what ever else you want to call it. They all mean the same thing.........HIGH GRADING

You also should definitely have at least level III of GOL before you start any felling.

[Ron Scott]

See http://www.logprice.com/ for timber prices.

[ely]

If your green at this, I don't think I would take on a job on someone else's land. If you or your dad owned some timberland and either of you already have your equipment for the job, then I could see where some $$ would come in handy for college. I would hope you had some experience or your dad at the logging game first of all. I'm kind of lucky up here as our marketing boards do all the marketing work: they find the best prices, they find and make available the spec sheets, and they let you know if the mill is buying. You can go through a wood broker, which is essentially the same. Both entities take a levy from the wood sold for their work involved. Only difference is the marketing board puts a % back into a kitty for education and management work that is pooled among everyone who has private woodlots. I remember cutting some softwood logs one summer to pay for tuition. At that time tuition and books totaled about $3000, and a T/T load of softwood (spruce-fir) logs was worth $2500 net.  Adds up quick when your logs are 18" plus at DBH and 3 - 16'ers per tree.

I've noticed now with some of the more modern mills around here, they won't buy logs with buts larger than 20". I don't know if this is by design to entice folks to cut wood sooner or if it's a design flaw and they just can't handle them. :\

Good luck with what ever you get yourself into.

swamp donkey, i am not sure about the minimum dia. on the sawlogs or i should say max. dia.
around here at the newer mills i believe they have this number because if you bring in the larger dia trees the company has too much waste wood in the butt swells. meaning they can physically saw them but they get no returns on the shorter wood shaved off the fat butted logs. again i say this is a guess on my part. i do know for sure we have a circle mill that does not take over 36" at the butt. you have to travel 200 miles almost to find a mill that will handle the big stuff. i hear tell that a mill in dekalb texas has a big slabber that will cuta 5 ft butt. i did talk to a logger that told me he had butted off several trees that were too big to haul to the mill that is close here. his skidderman told me they left butts that were 10 and sometimes 12 ft long in the woods because fuel prices did not warrant the trip to texas. sad but most likely true.

[SwampDonkey]

Spruce and fir don't have much swell at 20 inches, more like 48" and up like in Sitka Spruce. But most of our balsam is shot at 20". We still find spruce over 20", but I would say a 30" one in forest conditions is getting pretty exceptional in NB and rare. I don't even see those in a lot of virgin forest with 200+ year old trees. Most troubles with tree buts are with machine cut wood, they cut too low on the stump and get too much flare that needs squaring off. I've seen a man on the yard whose job was to square off those buts because the mill won't except that flared but.

[ely]

yeah i understand that concept, here it is called flagging the butt. used to it did not matter what you did as long as the dia. was less than x amount. then they said only two sides could be flagged, who knows why on that one.
trees around here have alot of butt swell when you cut them out of the bottom lands regardless of type or age. other places it averages out more even.

[Phorester]

ZACH, maybe you are already doing this, but be sure to check out prices at your local mills.  Websites may give you false information because the prices are too remote from you, too general,  or are out of date.  You will also need to know what species your local mills are buying, and the specs. for logs - desired length, minimum bottom and top diameters, etc. Find out from them what log scale to use.  Although it might be most accurate to use International 1/4", for example, it does no good if that is not the scale used in a particular locality.  A buyer will simple rescale your logs with the scale he uses himself and that's how he will pay you.

Find out how logs get from the woods to the mill in your area.  Can you skid them to the road and a trucker will get them to the mill, or do you have to haul them to the mill yourself?  Will the mills even buy from you, or do they only buy from preferred suppliers?

Remember that logging is in the top 2 or 3 most dangerous occupations in the USA.  When you stick a running chainsaw into a tree, no matter what experience level you are at, you have just become a logger.  At the very least don't work alone.

Also, you might be going at this from the wrong end especially as a learning experience.  Nothing has been said yet about management of this 10 acres, only about cutting trees from it.  Unless you've looked at the forest itself in terms of health, growth rates, soils, species suited to the site, landowner objectives, etc., it sounds like highgrading to me, which is the worst way to "manage" woodland. 

Not saying don't do it, it will certainly be a good learning experience.  Just saying that there are still a lot of unanswered questions and things to consider. I think Tom has the best advice - get input from a local on-the-ground professional forester.  He can guide you with  your questions and concerns.