Author Topic: Dealing with Sweetgum saplings (Read 4533 times)

GW · « **on:** November 11, 2007, 01:08:16 pm »

My girl Cindy has a 5 acre pine plantation that is ready for it's final thinning. I'm going to mark trees to be left as landscaping for a home site. There are about a million small Sweetgums ranging up to about 2.5 inches with the average being about 1.5 inches. I'm thinking that it would be best to remove and kill the SG before thinning the pines because the pine tops will be difficult to work around.

My thought is to get one of these:

http://www.echo-usa.com/product.asp?Model=SRM-400U&Category=BRUSHCUTTER

to cut down the saplings and then apply an herbicide to the stumps.

What say you?

Tom · « **Reply #1 on:** November 11, 2007, 01:19:38 pm »

With care, a wonderful tool. I have used one from Sears and one by Stihl in the past. They work wonderfully on stuff up to 4", and with some experience, even larger.

They aren't a saw as much as a powered machete. You will find them best used, chopping at a stem, not sawing at it. Though, sawing is necessary sometimes.

I'm not familiar with the Echo. DanG loves his Echo Saws. I am familiar with the tool, though, and want another one real bad.

You must be very cognizant of a bare spinning blade in your hands. They will kick and they act differently depending on which side of the blade you use. Not a tool for the faint of heart.

GW · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2007, 04:16:16 pm »

Thanks Tom, can I use Round Up on the stumps? If so, what about adding a dye to it so I know where I've been?

Tom · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2007, 04:22:53 pm »

I've always heard that roundup needed leaves in a fast growing state to work good. I don't know if it can be used on stumps. It would probably work on the sprouts for sure. Using the dye sounds like a good idea.

One of the Foresters can probably recommend a better chemical, or approve roundup.

WDH · « **Reply #4 on:** November 11, 2007, 04:44:19 pm »

GW,

I have done exactly what you are contemplating, but my sweetgum was bigger on the average.

On some areas, I sawed them off with a brushcutter and sprayed the cut stumps with a 50% solution of Garlon 4 and water. Works fine.

In some other areas, I used a machete to whack them off about chest high and spray the cut end. That was faster, more fun, and did not require a $500+ tool.

Round-up is a poor chemical for this application. Garlon 4 or Tordon 101 is better. I am sure some of the other foresters can recommend some other suitable herbicides, but Garlon 4 might be the best one if you can get it.

If you use Tordon 101, you have to be careful not to slop it around because it is soil active. However, I have used it numerous times in injection work with no residual impact to surrounding desirable plants. Just keep it on the plant you want to control.

GW · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2007, 05:11:29 pm »

Thanks WDH. I think this tool will be very handy to have in our situation. There is also about 5 acres of mixed hardwoods on the same lot as the pine plantation. The hardwoods go down to a pretty beaver pond and I would like to clear out the small trees there too, so that the view of the pond is enhanced. I know that there are machines to clear out underbrush, but I like the idea of doing it surgically so that I can choose to leave certain species of trees that I like. At our home property we have areas that are overrun with Privet and I think I'll use the same approach on them as on the SG. Many of the Privet trees are over 2 inches in diameter.

Another thing I like about cutting them off at the ground is that I won't have to deal with standing dead trees later.

To sum up, I don't need much of a reason to buy tools.

pineywoods · « **Reply #6 on:** November 11, 2007, 06:14:34 pm »

I have a never-ending battle with sweetgum saplings. If they are 2 in or more, one of the best methods I have found involves a battery powered drill and a squirt bottle of plain old home-owner roundup. Drill 2 or 3 1/4 in holes about an inch deep around the trunk and squirt them full of roundup. The sapling will start dying at the top and continue down to the roots. Once dead, they seem to rot faster than usual. Works pretty good on large sweetgum trees too.

btw, if you don't first get rid of any tree big enough to make gumballs full of seed, you are just wasting your time.

GW · « **Reply #7 on:** November 11, 2007, 06:32:43 pm »

Quote from: pineywoods on November 11, 2007, 06:14:34 pm

btw, if you don't first get rid of any tree big enough to make gumballs full of seed, you are just wasting your time.

That brings up something I'm curious about, how did all of these saplings get started in the first place? The pines were planted maybe twenty years ago so how did SG seeds get into every row? There are a few other species of trees in the pines, but Sweetgums represent about 98% of the saplings. The pines were burned maybe a few years ago.

For what it's worth we'll keep the pines mowed once we do this final thinning. Won't that keep the SG under control?

Tom · « **Reply #8 on:** November 11, 2007, 06:40:17 pm »

Sweetgum doen't need an excuse to sprout. It generates a lot of seed and then stump sprouts, root sprouts and sun sprouts too. I had an old forester tell me one time when I was concerned with cutting down some of the young oaks, sweetgums and other hardwoods in my swamp, "take care of the pines, you'll have hardwoods no matter what you do." He was right.

pineywoods · « **Reply #9 on:** November 11, 2007, 07:03:00 pm »

I've seen fire used to successfully control sweetgum, but the timing is critical. The trick is to burn just after the big parent trees have liberally sown your plot with seed. Burn just a little too early and all you are doing is providing a good seedbed for next spring's crop. Even then, fire will kill the small saplings, but not the roots. Come spring, they will sprout back from the roots. Same goes for mowing.

ely · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2007, 09:09:49 am »

we have used a herbicide called accord in the past on cut stump applications. it is the same chemical as roundup just a little higher percentage on the ingredient. it turned the wood yellow when we applied it to the stump, so you could always tell what was done. and on the plus side it is not active in the soil like the picloram based herbicides.

on a side note, i cut several of the gum trees down and brought them to the mill. it is a pretty white wood but how much trouble will i have with the wood moving while it dries.

GW · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2007, 09:47:27 am »

ely, there were some good sized SG in the two pond sites we recently had cleared. If I remember correctly the Sweet Gums were graded with the Poplar. I'm not sure if that helps...

Greg · « **Reply #12 on:** November 12, 2007, 10:18:48 am »

Isn't it sweetgum that has those spikey ball seeds?

Seems like you must have a seed source close by, I don't see those things blowing far in the wind or otherwise spread by birds???

You should also look into the herbicide PathFinder II, for painting stumps. It expensive but works will (for ailanthus control anyways), I wonder what the cost/benefit analysis is to roundup/glyphosphate?

Greg

GW · « **Reply #13 on:** November 12, 2007, 10:30:17 am »

Yes Greg, those are the seeds. The pines are adjacent to mixed hardwoods (Water Oak, Sweet Gum, Poplar, Black Gum). The Sweet Gums are evenly distributed through out the pines with only an occasional Oak or Black Gum. Could there are still be Sweet Gum roots from before the pines were planted? The pines are at least 15 years old and it looks like it was cultivated for crops before that because of the way the land is terraced.

rebocardo · « **Reply #14 on:** November 12, 2007, 12:24:22 pm »

Sweetgum nuts/seeds can travel a long distance with a good wind. I think the ones that really travel probably came off with a small upper branch.

I think the reason you find so many sweetgum saplings is most animals do not want to mess with the shell if there are easier to eat acorns or pinecones nearby.

The squirrel and other animals (deer, chipmunks, rats, etc.) eat all the acorns and the squirrels will knock the pinecones out of the trees, but, I have never seen one take a sweetgum nut.

I have used the Stihl with the circular saw blade (which is what it basically is) and it works great. Though you can get a kick back for sure if you get sloppy whle doing a lot of trees. Never used the Echo. After the sapling is down, I like to square off the top so if I drive over it later, it doesn't cut a tire.

Personally, I liked the Stihl MS-180 for this kind of job because I turn the sapling into firewood and I don't mind the bending over.

I do a slight open face cut, barely a back cut, push over by hand, and leave the sapling on the stump, supported by the closed notch off the ground so I can easily trim all the branches off without leaning over. Then I section the trunk while it is off the ground. As you cut more off, it raises up a bit. The idea is to always have it at waist height. When I am at the last 12" I just cut the stump off straight at ground height.

Might seem like a lot of effort, but, I hate wasting good wood and I can pull out a lot of wood this way perfect for fire starters and the small sweetgum will dry quick this way. Plus, people really like the small stuff for fires and stoves.

Trying to cut up 100 saplings into firewood once they are already down is too time consuming with a chainsaw, so I try to do it with the tree attached to the stump. It goes fairly quick once you get the routine down and learn not to break the hinge.

GW · « **Reply #15 on:** November 12, 2007, 04:21:04 pm »

That makes sense about the SG seeds being less desirable. Most of my saplings are way too small for firewood rebocardo, but I'll use your technique on larger ones.

Today I bought a RedMax line trimmer which is rated for use with bruchcutter blade. The blade I got has chisel teeth with the same profile as a chain tooth and can be sharpened the same way. I got the trimmer from the same shop I got my Stihl chainsaw from. They also sell Stihl and Echo trimmers, but they prefer RedMax which is made by Komatsu. They really don't like the new 4 cycle mix engines that Stihl is making. The RedMax was the only one in the bunch with a 2 barrel carb and it has a solid drive shaft.

http://catalog.redmax.com/MyCart/ProductDetails/11/BCZ2401S_String_Trimmer.aspx

Has anyone ever used Arsenal herbicide from BASF? I spent some time in the local fertilizer store and that's what was recommeded there. They said it's one of the most commonly used chemicals in maintaining pine plantations and can be used on cuts, stumps or foliage. I don't need a license to buy it either.

Here's the Arsenal info: http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld542007.pdf

ibseeker · « **Reply #16 on:** November 12, 2007, 04:47:29 pm »

GW: I've got the same problem with the SG. The Arsenal concentrate seems like a good product. I printed the data sheet and I'll continue to read your thread to see if anyone has an pro's or con's about it. It sounds like we are heading the same direction with our forests. The loggers finished in Sept. and I'll be working to get rid of the Virginia pine that will be sprouting this spring. I'm looking for a brushcutter and was considering the Stihl FS-250. Your comments about the shop not liking the new 4 cycle mix engines has me curious. I'm not sure what you meant by a 4 cycle mix engine?
Would you give me an update on the RedMax after you've had a chance to use it?

I'll be starting a new thread but it will be in the Ask the Forester section. Any ideas, things you've learned or suggestions would be appreciated.

GW · « **Reply #17 on:** November 12, 2007, 06:25:08 pm »

ibseeker, the new Stihl engines are 4 cycles that require oil mixed with the gas like a 2 stroke. The shop guys told me the list of problems with them but I can't remember specifics.

I ran the RedMax for a while today and it did the work alright. One observation is that is lags initially when I rev it. That might be reasonable performance because the blade is pretty heavy at 9 inches dia. and almost 1/8 inch thick.

Also I'm cutting very low so that I don't leave tire hazards and my blade got dull fast. It's still cutting, but this might be an issue. I'm going to look into carbide blades and see if they can stand up to that kind of abuse. Can anyone comment on that?

Tom · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2007, 07:15:01 pm »

Yes, I used Arsenal to inject oaks, gums, bays and holly's in my swamp. It works great. It is on the expensive side and slow, but deadly. It doesn't move around like some chemicals and works by inhibiting a protein that creates the plants food. Injection isn't the problem that spraying might be where wind blow gets stuff out of hand. It would probably work as good on stumps. I was hacking and squirting.

Arsenal is good for Pine release because it doesn't seem to effect conifers. Timed properly, it can be sprayed over a plantation for release.

Recommended application was in the fall. By spring, the growing flushes were few and those trees just didn't know they were dead yet.

I ended up with a lot of regeneration of Loblolly Bay in one spot that I can only attribute to seed. There was no stump sprouting or root sprouting that was obvious.

I'd use it again.

Ed_K · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2007, 07:22:24 pm »

I use carbide skillsaw blades works well. Make sure they are solid blades DON'T USE the blades with the slots in them, they break apart and really hurt when they hit you in the shin

. And that was with my chaps on. I've hit rocks with mine and still worked till lunch before changing the blade.I have a sharpening service save out the ones that carpenters can't use and get em for $3. when I loss more than 3-4 bits they go in the scrap metal pile.

GW · « **Reply #20 on:** November 12, 2007, 07:44:25 pm »

Thanks gents.

Tom · « **Reply #21 on:** November 12, 2007, 07:52:19 pm »

I found my best results using the bush whacker was with a steel blade. It came with a 10" one and I carried a flat file and sharpened it now and again. It had a tooth configuration of about 1 tooth every 3/4".

I tried using one of those "chainsaw" type blades and it was too slow and required that I saw. I chopped with the steel blade and it worked like a machete. If the shrub was too thick I did saw.

GW · « **Reply #22 on:** November 12, 2007, 08:33:27 pm »

These blades look interesting:

--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/3b7xw4

pineywoods · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2007, 09:58:43 pm »

I gave up fighting saplings and started using this

Just have to be sure I get the roots, push them up in a pile and burn..

WDH · « **Reply #24 on:** November 12, 2007, 10:44:59 pm »

I have not used Arsenal, but it should be fine for your application. Keeping the brushcutter blade sharp is tough in these conditions. That is another reason that I use the machete. It is easy to cut the stem into and to apply the herbicide. The little stubs rot out pretty fast.

With only five acres, you should be able to do a good job with your brushcutter.

Muddy Waters · « **Reply #25 on:** November 12, 2007, 11:41:27 pm »

Sweet Gum....what a fight...I've gone thru about 6 acres of my woodlot cleaning out SG from 1" to 8" in diameter...most of the six acres has a good stand of 25 yr old Loblolly..I used Arsenal/Chopper and the cheaper generic Imazapyr...used 1.3 oz/gal with 3 oz/gal of Roundup in a Stihl backpack sprayer for sprouting stems up to four feet...

the 1" to 3" material was chopped with one of the brush knives and a 50% water/Imazapyr in a spray bottle squirt to the cut stem...using the same knives a cut was made diagonal downward into the cambium and a shot of Sweet Gum Killer was injected on the 6" plus diameters...

BASF touts Arsenal/Chopper with good reason...it works...I went to see the test plantations and the yield on treated vs untreated was 1.6 tons/acre/year for Pine...

http://www.coontailfarm.com/

GW · « **Reply #26 on:** November 13, 2007, 10:30:39 am »

That's good to hear Muddy Waters. The qt of concentrate that I bought was $170 and for stump application they recommend 6 oz per gal of water.

I ordered the carbide blade that I linked to above It's from the same seller but a different item number with cheaper shipping in the US. The blade was $20 and Shipping was $5. It might be a waste of money in the long run because I'm cutting into soil most of the time.

Muddy Waters · « **Reply #27 on:** November 13, 2007, 02:02:16 pm »

if you are clearing for a future house site, using that carbide brush cutting blade makes a lot of sense... I don't have a problem with a few stobs sticking up for a while...it shouldn't take but a small amount of chemical to keep them from sprouting back...if you do have a few hard cases just mix a hand pump tank full and hit them...

for a cost savings, you may want to try the Imazapyr generic...substantial savings in all quantities...

GW · « **Reply #28 on:** November 13, 2007, 04:37:47 pm »

The reason I'm cutting off so low is because our loggers will be thinning the pines soon and I don't want to create tire hazards.

Tom · « **Reply #29 on:** November 13, 2007, 04:58:53 pm »

A 2" or 3" tall stub shouldn't bother a tractor tire and even most street type treads will push a sweetgum stump that size over rather than allow it to penetrate. You would be creating a stumbling hazard, if anything, and I'll bet your loggers are so used to stepping over stuff laying on the forest floor that they won't even notice them. Now, if you leave a stick, six inches tall, they might trip.

You will find that a little time with your clearing saw will have you expertly clipping them off close to the ground without getting into the dirt. Just leave a flat top.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #30 on:** November 13, 2007, 05:13:02 pm »

Just let me at'm with my FS550. Like whacking grass.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board2/index.php?topic=613.0

Near the end is a video.

GW · « **Reply #31 on:** November 13, 2007, 05:50:37 pm »

Cheater! $:-\$

ibseeker · « **Reply #32 on:** November 14, 2007, 08:11:42 pm »

SwampDonkey, is the Stihl FS 250 a powerful enough brushcutter for a small woodlot owner to work with? I won't be working it like a commercial guy would, only cutting small hardwoods/pines less than 2" and not a lot of continuous work, many breaks during the day. Any opinion on the new 4 cycle engines that require a pre-mix?

GW: Did you check out the Husqvarna brushcutters? Any opinions given to you?
On the saw blades....did you check out or try the 3 edge or 4 edge cutting blades? When I was looking at the Stihl dealer's saw blades they didn't have much of a selection. Where did you find the one you bought? ebay?

Did you get much kick back or the cutter head bouncing around?

I was going to use the Arsenal until Tom mentioned that it doesn't work on pine. I'll have to check out Imazapyr....great name but it should be for a pesticide.

GW · « **Reply #33 on:** November 14, 2007, 08:38:23 pm »

ibseeker, I think the FS 250 is a commercial model and fairly expensive. I paid $290 for the RedMax and it's considered light commercial quality. The Stihl dealer I use doesn't like the 4 mix engines at all. I didn't check Husky because there's no dealer near me. I don't think the 3 or 4 edge blades will work on 2 inch saplings. The blade that I got with the trimmer is a 22 tooth chisel tooth model. I ordered the 100 tooth carbide tipped blade from a guy through ebay. I didn't have much trouble with kick back.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #34 on:** November 14, 2007, 08:57:41 pm »

The 250 is almost as powerful as the 350, only lighter and with more displacement. If your going to cut 2" brush you'll get through it a lot easier with a clearing saw blade. Those 3 or 4 winged blades are only meant for raspberry, burdock and pencil sized woody stems. It's not as easy to get injured with those machines as a chainsaw. Make sure you wear a harness and never reach for the blade to remove a stick, shut it off first. Only takes a second to loose a finger, maybe 3 seconds to restart the saw.

See if the dealer will give you a Jonsered or Husky harness instead of the Stihl harness. Those Stihl harnesses are hard on the hide of the lower back and the underarms.

I've only used the FS550 myself and can't comment on the 4 cycle models. The FS550 has been around for quite some time and has been a good design I would say.

If you choose a Husky, can't go wrong either.

I think the warrantees are longer on the non-professional models. I think Echo is the only saw that warrants a full year on professional saws. I don't care for them.

The FS550 is $1250 CDN, might be more if you don't run a thinning crew. Dealers here give about $200 off the price I think.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #35 on:** November 14, 2007, 09:10:17 pm »

I don't think the FS250 is big enough for commercial operations. It is classed as a brush saw. I never see them here. Plus what makes me say no is they have year warrantee, where the commercial ones have 90 days and are clearing saws.

rebocardo · « **Reply #36 on:** November 15, 2007, 01:13:08 am »

> did you check out or try the 3 edge

I use the 3 wing design, you can get through a 2" sapling, eventually, more like burn through it. It is quicker to just take out a hand saw and cut it. I put a good edge on mine so it cuts quicker (which they say not to do), but, it is still pretty much unsuitable for a large amount of big saplings.

beenthere · « **Reply #37 on:** November 15, 2007, 01:34:20 am »

rebo
You have a pic of your blade? I'm thinkin the talk has been about a saw blade, not the 3 winged chopper blade for grass....maybe I'm wrong here.

Wudman · « **Reply #38 on:** November 16, 2007, 04:04:24 pm »

GW,

I work in the Southern Piedmont of Virginia. Sweet gum (L. styraciflua) is a prolific seeder and pioneer species here. It will outrun a Virginia Pine across a field. If you have a seed source and are getting daylight to the ground, you are pretty much wasting your time trying to control sweetgum saplings by mechanical and hack and squirt means. You can wipe it out this year, but a seed crop will re-establish it immediately if ground conditions permit. It can grow 6 feet a year in this area. If you want to attempt control, I would suggest a directed spray of herbicide to the standing sapling crown for anything you can reach that way (Backpack or tractor.) Glyphosate (Roundup, Accord, Razor, various generics) is very effective on a sweetgum. It can also be tank mixed with Arsenal of Chopper (Imazypyr). You would want to minimize non target contact. Imazypyr when used according to label will not kill pine, but you will get significant growth stunting if applied over the top. You mentioned mowing. That would be an effective deterrent if done regularly. It will take a number of years to kill the sprouts.....and post-thin, you'll have big pine stumps and brush to contend with. Hope things work well.

Wudman

GW · « **Reply #39 on:** November 16, 2007, 06:12:52 pm »

Thanks Wudman. Once these saplings are down I'll see to it that the lot stays mowed to prevent new growth. The property is on the market so I don't want to wait for these trees to die slowly. Good point about the pine stumps, I wonder how much it would cost to grind a few hundred of them...

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Author Topic: Dealing with Sweetgum saplings (Read 4533 times)