Mystery log

[Bibbyman]

 

A customer brought in a couple of logs from one blown down tree today.  He thought they may be white oak because they were white inside.  They are not white oak.  I’m not sure what they are.  I suspected some kind of non-native yard tree but the customer said it was a “wild” tree growing along a stream on a farm. If it is a native tree,  it’d have to be native to mid-Missouri. 

The wood is the same color of cream white from inner bark to center with no darker center wood at all.  It is much heavier and the bark type does not look like basswood or hackberry.  The bark is about 1/4" thick or maybe a little more and is generally dark brown to black in color and somewhat smooth. There was one leaf still on one log.  It was of the simple type – like an elm leaf – about an 1-1/2” long and 1” wide.  These logs are 8' long and about 16" dia.

[Furby]

Close up pic of the leaf?
How bout one of the bark?

[Gary_C]

Maybe a American Holly.

[Brian Beauchamp]

My guess is, from what I can tell, cedar elm. I'd like to see a pic of the leaf and a better pic of the bark.

[LeeB]

Doesn't look like the cedar elm I'm familiar with.

[Bibbyman]

I'm sure the one leaf that happend to be on a little sprig on the one log is gone to the wind.  It was pretty dry and just crumbled.

I've never heard of a cedar elm before.  Would it be something native to Missouri?

[LeeB]

Cedar elm has pretty much the same shape leaf as american elm, only much smaller. The leaves are about an inch long by half an inch wide. I don't know how long those logs have been cut, but in my experiance the wood tends to take on a reddish hue after it ages a few days and most of them I milled did tend to have a noticable heart to them.

[SwampDonkey]

Is the wood ring-porous?

The wood is not brown enough for hard elms.

So, the bark isn't gray or brown then? Rules out all the white woods I know.

Was thinking silver maple or white ash, or hackberry, maybe even persimmon (very small, irregular dark heart).

[tonich]

Is the wood ring-porous?

The wood is not brown enough for hard elms.

So, the bark isn't gray or brown then? Rules out all the white woods I know.

Was thinking silver maple or white ash, or hackberry, maybe even persimmon (very small, irregular dark heart).

Too many guesses, eh?   

[Ron Wenrich]

Could the leaf be part of a compound leaf?  Of course, the leaf doesn't really have to be part of that particular tree.

I'm thinking it might be Pawlonia.  Non-native, but grows in the wild.  Another one might be Ailanthus.  That one grows in abandoned fields.  The stream could be not much more than a trickle of water. 

[Phorester]

looks like a hackberry or sugarberry to me, but that's a wild-ass guess from this picture taken at that distance and your description.

[woodbeard]

Boxelder? It does like to grow in places like that.

[Tom]

Paulownia would account for the whiteness but not the weight.  It's light  and very soft to the saw.

Do you grow much black gum there?  That wood remains rather white in a wet invironment, it's heart wood will darken, eventually, to deep brown or almost black and its leaves are simple and almost look like a cherry leaf.  It's bark begins to look like your picture when the tree gets old.  The wood is locked, hard when dry and moderately heavy. Splitting with an axe is almost impossible.

[SwampDonkey]

That was a guess I was tossing around to Tom. I found out that it quickly oxidizes on exposure, like a peeled apple,  and I wasn't sure of the bark.

[solodan]

Bibby, by the looks of  that picture, it appears that the heart is slighly darker. Are you sure that the leaf was part of the tree, or could it have been a parasitic plant growing off the trunk?

[Bibbyman]

I've been in and out deer hunting.  So far its one shot, one kill. 

I may get up the gumption to go out and take a couple more pictures. 

The leaf was on a little sprig left hanging on the second cut.  That was the only leaf left.  I don't even remember holding it.  The guy that found it pulled it off and flattened it out.  As I said, it's about 1-1/2" long and maybe 1" wide – round on one end – pointed on the other.  I don't remember if it had sawtooth edge or not.

The tree grew in the flat land about a mile from a town that was established in about 1820.  It could have been a yard tree gone wild. 

I wouldn't recognize any of the trees you have named.  If they are native to our area, we call them something else. 

Maybe when I see the owner he can come up with a branch with leaves.  That’d sure narrow down the possibilities.

I looked up cedar elm on a couple of sources.  They are not native to Missouri but they will apparently grow here and have been used for yard trees.  The are native to east Texas,  north Louisiana, and south Arkansas. None of the references I found showed what the inside wood looked like.  A picture of one had bark much rougher than what’s on these logs.
 

[Gary_C]

I doubt that it is an elm. Far as I know all elms have white sapwood and redish-brown heartwood.

Holly is an evergreen with elm like leaves that have prickly looking points on the sides.

Really need a better look at that bark.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah I wouldn't even consider elm. Not brown enough. Another thing that would help us is to know if it's ring porous like oak and ash or diffuse porous like maple. Find that out easily on the end grain. Well, you know that anyway. A lot of the species I mentioned can have interlocked grain like elm though, except ash and maple.

[Brian Beauchamp]

After looking at it again and zooming in on the pic, I'd say it's definitely not cedar elm. Somebody said Tree of Heaven...I believe that's the most likely.

[WDH]

I think that it might be Ostrya virginiana, hophornbeam.

[SwampDonkey]

Could be what WDH suggests too. Has thin flaky gray-brown bark. I'm sure we are all over it. Ironwood that big are rare though, it's mostly an under story tree up here, but can form some nasty thickets in sugar bushes. The wood doesn't darken too much when cut, creamy white and small brown heart. They grow fairly slow up here, even as yard trees. I've seen them on many types of soils, but not too swampy.

Bib, you probably can't go wrong with ironwood, hop-hornbeam, which ever the locals call it. We use it for tool handles, firewood and pulpwood up here.

[Texas Ranger]

DanG, hophornbeam only grows that big in TEXAS!

[Bibbyman]

I don't think I've ever seen an ironwood in our forest over 4" dia.  I never knew they could ever get any bigger than that.

Here are a couple more photos.  Sorry, no leaf.

 

Here is a closer view of the butt end and the top end of the second 8' log.  The bark is charcoal black near the base and it gets ligher gray in the top log. Note there is some faint hint of darker wood in the double heart of the top log.   

 

Here are a couple of trimmed off limb knots.  Note there is a little brown wood in the center.  The color of the bark to the right in my shadow is a little more true.  The bright sunlight kind of makes the bark look lighter in the picture than it really is.

[Gary_C]

Perhaps it's a water tupelo?

[SwampDonkey]

Well, that sure ain't ironwood now that I get a view of the bark, not even maple either.

[SwampDonkey]

Might be Gary_C, bark looks close. But isn't it a swamp tree where flooding occurs frequently?

[woodbeard]

That's really looking like ailanthus, but it seems odd that there would be a single leaf sprouting from the trunk.

[Bibbyman]

Might be Gary_C, bark looks close. But isn't it a swamp tree where flooding occurs frequently?

I think he said it come from the edge of a stream.   He got the log from a rolling prairie kind of an area.  Maybe you'd call it a savana?  

That's really looking like ailanthus, but it seems odd that there would be a single leaf sprouting from the trunk.

There was a small twig on the second cut that the guy pulled the leaf from.  Even the butt cut has a few limbs and has a twig or to - now sans leaves.

P.S.  maybe another clue.  I just remembered that the guy said the blown over tree had no tap root like other hardwoods.  Said the rootball was flat.

I looked up water tupelo and it may be a match.  Not native to our area but not that far away or could be a yard tree, etc.

[Geoff Kegerreis]

Could you take a better picture of the bark?  In order for a picture of the cross-section (e.g. end of the log) to be worthwhile, we'd like to see a macro (as close as you can get it, but large enough to see the heart and a good bit of the sapwood (we need to see the rings if possible).

How heavy is it compared to Red oak (equivalent/lighter/heavier)?

It looks like Ailanthus to me - and that tree could be growing in the spot you suggested.  I've seen it growing "wild" before and it certainly could do well in central MO (or just about anywhere for that matter).  Have that friend who dropped it by take a look at the area he got it from again and see if there are heavy stump sprouts in the area.  Once summer comes around, if it's Ailanthus, you'll have lots of stump sprouts there, and the foliage is unmistakable. 

So far, the bark looks right and the wood looks right, but it's difficult to say via the pics you have posted so far.

As for Ironwood, it grows up to 16 inches or more, but the bark gets a bit shaggy (like the cedars) at those sizes + it's extremely dense (very heavy). 

[Ron Wenrich]

Ailanthus will have a definite odor to it.  Pungent would be accurate.  I've heard it called sumac, since it looks a lot like that.

The wood looks more like a maple.  Ailanthus has a greenish brown cast in the heart.  It has more pronounced rings.

Pawlonia and maple has a wood stucture like that on the ends.

[Geoff Kegerreis]

Ailanthus will have a definite odor to it.  Pungent would be accurate.  I've heard it called sumac, since it looks a lot like that.

Yes, it looks a lot like sumac, but can grow much taller and I do not recall whether the wood has an odor.  They call it "Stinktree from Heaven" due to the foliage and flowers, but not sure about the wood.

The wood looks more like a maple.

Maybe, and Norway maple is a distinct possibility too- it has diamond shaped bark and wood similar to that - it could also escape in that environment (or even might have been planted there)

 

Ailanthus has a greenish brown cast in the heart.  It has more pronounced rings.

You probably have better eyes than I do, but I can't see the rings in that pic, which is why I requested another.

Pawlonia and maple has a wood stucture like that on the ends.

There is no way it's Pawlonia, as the average man could grab a log that size right off the ground and place it on the deck with his own two hands - Royal Pawlonia is extremely lightweight - almost to the extent of Balsa - and it's wood is similar in color too - but not in strength - that's for sure!

[Corley5]

Post some pics of it sawn into lumber 

[Bibbyman]

It looks like Ailanthus to me - and that tree could be growing in the spot you suggested.  I've seen it growing "wild" before and it certainly could do well in central MO (or just about anywhere for that matter).  Have that friend who dropped it by take a look at the area he got it from again and see if there are heavy stump sprouts in the area.  Once summer comes around, if it's Ailanthus, you'll have lots of stump sprouts there, and the foliage is unmistakable. 

I looked up Ailanthus and the single leaf I examined was not 1/4 the length shown for the Ailanthus.  I don't have a complete leaf group to know how it is assembled. 

The bark is defiantly not like any ERC. 

The growth rings are very hard to see.  They look to be about 1/10"/year so it would indicate it wasn't a real fast growth tree.

I've got the logs on the skid blocks right now.  I may saw them tomorrow and get some more pictures.

[SwampDonkey]

Well I gotta put more faith in Bibbyman than to think he doesn't know what maple looks like. Surely Bib. 

I give up further guesses without knowing if it's ring porous and/or seeing a focused end grain picture. 

Let the speculation continue. 

[SwampDonkey]

Trouble about that leaf he found on a little sprig is whether or not it was a typical leaf, a suppressed leaf, deformed leaf, or stipule, or stipel. However, the last two possibilities are unlikely.

[Brian Beauchamp]

The way the butt log looks and the slight bumps at the base of it make me think that it could just be a hackberry or sugarberry that isn't showing the typical characteristics of the bark.

[woodbeard]

The slow growth probably rules out ailanthus, that stuff will grow over an inch per year in those conditions.

[thedeeredude]

I know the answer, its tree wood!   Hadda put that in there.

[Bibbyman]

Has anyone thought about Buckeye?  I've been looking at buckeye information and the leaf I seen could have been one leaf off a compound Ohio Buckeye leaf.  There was part of another leaf attached to the same sprig.

None of the tree guides show a cross section of the inside of a tree.  I guess they figure nobody's going to cut one into a log and then try to identify it.

We have had buckeye invade our farm in the last 20 years.  I’ve cut a number of sprouts but never any larger trees and don’t remember what the wood looked like except it was light in color.


 

[SwampDonkey]

Buckeye is similar to basswood when fresh cut, it is tolerant of shade and fast growing. Found as a bottom land tree in the north and more upland to the south, often part of the climax forest. Wood light in weight 49 green, 25 lb/cu ft ovendry. Bark with unpleasant odour. May form thickets along streams.

Sapwood white to grayish-white, heartwood creamy white to pale yellowish white, often with gray streaks of oxidative sap stain. Growth rings barely distinct, delineated by a narrow light colored line. [Source:Text of Wood Tech]

You might just have solved it Bib 

[woodbeard]

The wood looks right, but the bark is wrong. Buckeye bark is pale light grey ( brownish sometimes ) and composed of wide flat plates.
I'm back to thinking boxelder. It's bark is usually much lighter colored, but maple bark tends to get blackened, maybe by a fungus or mold?

[SwampDonkey]

Over the years I've been convinced that bark doesn't mean much some times.

We have rock maple (sugar) that grows with platey bark, peals off in small plates in one region. That region it is heavy to sand and in my area the bark looks more like what you guys are used to. Our soil is richer here in potato country than the sandy soil where the other maple grows. According to the dendro text the bark of sugar maple is very variable. Even our black cherry is a bit different than that down your way, even reminds me of maple bark in southern NB. Enough to drive anyone trying to learn this stuff, into hysterics. 

[woodbeard]

Over the years I've been convinced that bark doesn't mean much some times.

I agree, that's why I'm thinking it could still be boxelder, even though the bark looks so dark.

Buckeye on the other hand, has bark that is so much different than that in many ways. Also, a streambank is boxelders favorite place to grow, whereas buckeye favors higher ground. The twig/leaf sprouting from the trunk is also much more typical of boxelder.

[SwampDonkey]

Agreed, but both are rather light woods aren't they?

[Bibbyman]

 

Here is a close up of the end and bark on the mystery log.  Japanese beetle for size comparison.  It is very difficult to make out the growth rings.  Where you can, they are very close together – no more than 1/10 inch.  There is no distinct smell to the wood.

I took more pictures but none came out clear.  I have a close in feature on my camera but I often the pictures come out out of focus.   I don’t think this one picture will tell you much other than the bark is real thin – about the same width as a beetle.

I brought my dad down to see the logs this afternoon. He logged most all his life.  He looked at them pretty close and decided they were nothing he’d seen before and not anything I thought they may be.  This leads me to think they are some kind of exotic yard tree.

I'll saw them up and call the owner.  Maybe he can bring a limb with a complete leaf structure.  I think that will be the only way we can narrow this tree's family tree down.

[SwampDonkey]

If that ain't buckeye, then maybe it's horse-chestnut, which is related, but not native.

[woodbeard]

What about river birch? It would be rather heavy, have dark flaky bark like that, and grow by a stream.

[Gary_C]

After seeing that bark close up, I think it could be hard Maple.

[SwampDonkey]

Well, we've been all around the woodlot on this one.

[solodan]

Yeah, based on the pictures I would say lodgepole.   But you said it had leaves. and definately not native.   But If you showed that pic to anyone in my neck of the woods they would almost all say lodgepole.

[Brian Beauchamp]

Yeah, based on the pictures I would say lodgepole.   But you said it had leaves. and definately not native.   But If you showed that pic to anyone in my neck of the woods they would almost all say lodgepole.

I hope you're kidding,

[Brian Beauchamp]

...mockernut hickory? It has a light-colored wood and similar bark...

http://www.forestryimages.org/images/384x256/1373065.jpg

http://www.rarewoodsandveneers.com/images/productimages/rarewood/Carya%20tomentosa,%20Wormy%20Mockernut%20Hickory%20Root,%20Texas,%20Harold.jpg

...probably my last guess!

[Gary_C]

...probably my last guess!

Ya, I think we are running out of things to guess. Perhaps it is a new species. 

Bibbyman you will have to send a sample into the Forest Products Lab in Madison, WI. If it is a new species have you thought about what you are going to name it? 

[Brian Beauchamp]

Bibbywood is the obvious choice. Too bad it's extinct now. 

[Greg]

If you mill it and it smells like peanut butter, ailanthus.

Otherwise, I'd say box elder.

Greg

[Daren]

Bibbywood is the obvious choice. Too bad it's extinct now. 

  Ain't that the way it always goes.

[LeeB]

Bibby, did you ever saw those logs? Will they remain a mystery for all time?

[Phorester]

Bibby, if you want to, when you cut up the log cut a small block of this wood and mail it to me.  I'll see if I can identify it "in person".  Just a piece about 2" wide by 4" long, 1/2" thick will do.  I don't need any bark.  No hurry, and no guarentees.   

Virginia Dept. of Forestry
2400 Valley Ave., Suite 17
Winchester, VA  22601

[caz]

Box Elder bleeds when you cut it blood red center heart wood

[LeeB]

Well, what was it?

[Brian Beauchamp]

Could this be a big hawthorn? I cut a smaller one down the other day and it had a very similar wood color.

[SwampDonkey]

Bib, have you made any lumber from the logs yet? 


Surely it wasn't maple. Hey, maybe it's one of those huge choke cherries.