mixing two stroke oil in diesel

[arojay]

What does everybody think about mixing two stroke mix oil in ultra low sulphur diesel?  Any recommendations on mix ratios?

[Dale Hatfield]

I have read alot  about guys doing it. As with anything pros and cons. I have  done it a few times and couldnt notice any change in how things sounded or felt.
I however can hear and feel the differance when i have power service added. So thats what i use in both of our dodge trucks.
Dale

[LeeB]

Would either one of you care to elaborate a little more on the subject?

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Canola Oil would be much better, AND cheaper. Just gotta mix it well.

[cantcutter]

So what would the point of mixing oil into oil be? If you are trying to increase the sulfur just buy ag diesel. Either way when the DOT man runs a test strip on your exhaust pipe your getting a ticket

[Weekend_Sawyer]

 I run a little Diesel Kleen in my truck in the winter it has a cetane booster. I personally would not arbitrarily put anything in my tank that was not formulated for it.

[Dave Shepard]

I don't know if it is a state or federal thing, but there is no more ag diesel around here. You pay the tax and apply for a rebate for off road usage. That means there is no more "red" fuel. Adding anything to your fuel defeats the purpose of the super ultra low sulfur diesel. I would be very hesitant to add anything running the latest diesel particulate filters, they cost a lot of money when you plog them.


Dave

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Go http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve?cdra=Y&s=447609751 and then check out Blending Forum. Y'all might be surprised.

[Ed_K]

 I don't know Dave, I just got 300 gals of off road fuel two weeks ago and it has red dye in it. I add power service to it too.

[Dave Shepard]

Our off road comes from New York state, so that might have something to do with it. I guess I have to get some more details.

Dave

[thecfarm]

In my part of Maine off road diesel is not being delivered here anymore.There is a small store that has about 3000 gallons in his tank.Once that is gone I will have to start to pay the $3.25 price instead of the 2.77 price.I add some sort of stuff to it.It could be power service or something.

[Dale Hatfield]

I strongly belive the only differance between on road and off road is red dye and 44 .5cents per gallon tax in the state of ohio.
I have run both in skidders and trucks on and off road. I didnt find that either fuel had any more power than the other or did i get more hour/miles from either.
You will find that their are as many things  that have been dumped in a fuel tank to clean or improve milage  tranny fluid,motor oil,2storke mix are pretty common mixes.
Dale

[Fla._Deadheader]

  According to the guys on that Biodiesel Forum I linked to, the ULSD diesel is pretty "dry" meaning barely enough lubricity. A LOT of Injector Pumps are failing since this ULSD hit the market.

  Maybe that's what this thread is about

[arojay]

Yep, that is what this thread is about.  USLD is very dry and for Stanadyne pumps with a little vintage this is supposed to be a bad thing.  Also in my part of the world and many other Northern locations, winter diesel is formulated to pour at -52C which is about 60 below F.  It is pretty much straight kerosene.  Adding some TCW 3 mix oil is a solution that many owners use.  Modern
ATF doesn't burn well, niether does motor oil, but high quality two-stroke burns clean with little or no ash.  Ash is abrasive.  Canola is pretty stringy when cold, but is supposed to work well in warmer ambient temps.  I have not used two stroke in any of my diesels, but I'm planning to start.  From what I hear, later model diesel engines are engineered to run USLD, but the old pumps and injectors need more lube.  I'm wondering what kind of ratio is good to use.

[LeeB]

I see says the blind man.

[stonebroke]

The EPA considers all ulsd to be onroad so therefore everybody has to pay tax on it. Just another way for the government to get more of your dollars. Some people wil not file to get their money back. In NYS It is possible for the sellers not to charge tax but they have to pay it and file so it is easier for them to charge the buyer and not have to bother with it, also does not tie up their money. Farm bureau is trying to get an exemption for offroad but The government does not want to because their might actually have to keep track of something and that would be work. You would not want to have government employees work would you? It is much easier for the state just to screw the citizens ovwer on something like this.

Stonebroke

[OneWithWood]

Adding just 2% bio diesel will lubricate the engine and pumps.  B2 will not cause gelling problems and should be easy to find.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Just got this from a guy in Alaska-Yukon Territory.

  The oil feedstock for biodiesel is critical for cold weather performance. Clear canola is the best choice. If the feedstock contains transfats, hydrogenated oil or animal fats, the biodiesel will likely precipitate and clog filters even as low % as B5.

  Winter diesel or #1 diesel is closer to kerosene [i.e. fewer additives] the further north one goes. Kerosene is clear to -37°C

I operate at those temperatures with a fuel mix of #1 ULSD + 5% canola, which does not gel.

  When mixed with ULSD winter diesel [-37°C], 20% clear canola oil begins to cloud at -27°C, and 10% canola CP is -31°C

  This guy is pretty adamant with his statements   I'm just trying to get some decent info posted to this thread

  Have you actually done any blending, to see the effects of Canola

[OneWithWood]

I use different feedstocks when making my bio diesel.  All are waste picked up from restaurants and processing facilities.  The best is 100% canola but that is getting harder to find.  One restaurant uses a mix of 50-50 canola and corn oil.  The donut shop is using a 50-50 mix of palm and cottonseed oils.  That is strictly boiler fuel due to the very high CP.
For the greater part of the year I run 100% bio diesel.  The truck runs quieter and cooler on bio diesel rather than dino diesel.  As the weaterh turns colder I start blending in dino diesel which is now all ULSD.  I use as great a percentage of bio diesel as I can get away with.
On the same site FDH posted you can do a search on ULSD and verify that many people take advantage of the much higher lubricity of bio diesel in its many forms to counter the dryness of ULSD.  Most of these folks are running older equipment that requires the lubrication.
Converting the oil to methel esters (bio diesel) eliminates the long chain molecules that can cause issues with injectors and other stuff. 
Blending works for many.  I chose to go a different route because of the potential for coking and injector pitting.

[Gary_C]

   The oil feedstock for biodiesel is critical for cold weather performance. Clear canola is the best choice. If the feedstock contains transfats, hydrogenated oil or animal fats, the biodiesel will likely precipitate and clog filters even as low % as B5.

I do not think it makes any difference what feedstock is used as long as the biodiesel is made according to ASTM specs. There sure have been some gelling problems in the past with B2 blends in Minnesota, but they were more related to improper manufacturing than the feedstock. But there is no doubt that the main problem facing biodiesel is the poor cold weather flow problems.

I know that in Minnesota they have had to blend the B2 only when the fuel is hot and have had to install heated tanks at the terminals.

It is not clear if that guy from Alaska is actually using canola oil or biodiesel made with canola. However I see that he is blending with straight #1 diesel.

The red dyed off road diesel was a program originally set up to allow higher sulfer content diesel to be used off road and to stop or make it very expensive to get caught with red dyed fuel in your highway vehicle. However all diesel now must be ULSD and so there is no difference between on road and off road diesel except for the red dye.

However a problem arose with the terminals and distributors setting up higher prices for off road fuel.  I found that I could buy clear on road fuel for less than ten cents more per gallon than red dyed off road fuel inspite of the fact there was 44 cents tax per gallon on on road fuel. So because of many complaints, the feds as of Oct 2006, now allow you to buy highway fuel with tax and then file for a refund of the federal tax. So even though I have not heard of no red dyed fuel being available in Minnesota, it does not surprise me that the distributors and terminals are dropping red dyed fuel to retaliate for loosing those higher profits. And on the one hand, the feds are happy to take your money and then giving it back later, but they also have lost the control they had with red dyed fuel.

[stonebroke]

I have a question. I always tought #2 diesel and home heating oil were the same. Does that mean that now all home heating oil is ultra low sulfur?

Stonebroke

[arojay]

I haven't used canola and as far as I know, the only canola available around here is food grade.  Is there a different grade available for fuel uses?  The food grade stuff turns solid before 0F(-18C).   I have heard of a bio- oil that is 'rendered' from wood that would otherwise be wasted.  It is not a fuel that can be economically refined for most diesels but compares to bunker oil.  It has a naturally low pour point, something in the minus 30sC.
The guy I buy my fuel from uses two-stroke and some other additive in his older diesels, but he doesn't have a good handle on minimun or maximum oil to add.  About half of his fuel supply comes from the North Pole refinery, near Fairbanks.  I'm surprised to hear of bio-diesel being available in Alaska.  Another guy told me about adding two-stroke and when I asked him how much he added he said "glug-glug-glug" per tankful in his pick-up.  Funny, but not the answer I was looking for.  Truckers hauling on the ice roads to diamond mines and oil patch in the North West Territories have used two-stroke for a while, because the fuel that is refined at Norman Wells has always been very dry.  They also just dump some in when filling.  As an old timer in the area said "it has vim but no vigour".  This thread has brought up some interesting points about bio fuels that I didn't know about because it isn't available here.  Our off road fuel is not dyed but the government supposedly has a forensic fuel investigator who can sample your fuel and CSI you.  We can also use pump fuel and apply for a tax rebate on our off road fuel. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Arojay. Maybe use the link I posted, and join that forum. The guys name (Handle) is John Galt.

  That Forum has some of the most experienced and educated in Alt fuels, on the web. They will NOT steer you wrong.  Good luck and keep us informed.

[Bill]

FWIW

I started using Red Line diesel additive ( available truck stops and some auto parts places ) about two years ago to deal with any gelling issues ( when up to Canada or such ) . Its got all sorts of stuff in it  - slices dices cuts and struts. Claims it improves lubricity and cetane and also removes tiny amount of water. So after 40000 of my miles ( 100000+ total on the motor ) things are still holding together. They recommend 1 oz to ten or so gallons of fuel - I slip over closer to two oz to ten gallons often since the ULSD showed up. Not scientific but no complaints . . . .     yet .

[RSteiner]

Being concerned of the lack of lubricity of ULSD I have tried a beverage of additives.  I add Power Service at just a little more than the recommended mix ratios, I use the anti-gelling stuff year round.  I have also tried mixing in 2 ounces of 2 cycle oil per 5 gallons of diesel and an ounce per 5 gallons of Marvel Mystery oil.

I have no way of measuring the results other than what I percieve.  It seems like the tractor engine runs smoother and fuel consumption is a little less with that mixture.  Start up sounds better also. 

No matter what you add there is some one who thinks that there is something better to add or that you should not use this or that product.  In this neck of the woods I will always use Power Service to insure that the fuel will not gell up.  As far as the other additives go whether it helps me feel better more than it helps the tractor I don't know but it is cheap insurance.

Randy

[snowman]

I run offroad diesel in my pickup, i'ts cheaper and way better. Oh sure theres rumors of huge fines if you get caught but if you cut trees for a living your used to stupid gambles with life and limb.And it won't hurt my feelings if the winters warm up around here. I'm pro global warming.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Here's a guy using Straight Veggy Oil, in Alaska. www.alaskabiodiesel.org

[cantcutter]

Snowman
You may want to add a disclaimer to your post stating that you don't drive a new diesel before some one on here takes you up on your advice and pumps high sulfur into his/her 06/07/or 08 duramax or powerstroke

[Fla._Deadheader]

 If you blend with Biodiesel or a smaller amount of Straight Veggy Oil, the most important thing is, to BE SURE the lift pump from the tank to the Injection pump is sufficient to push or pull the fuel. ULSD would not be a problem, then.

  Dealers like to cancel warranties from using Bio or Veggie, BUT, Duramax, Cummins and Ford have now agreed to small amounts of Veggie in the fuel. I believe it's B20, maybe.

   Anyone really interested should check out the other forum. There is a blending board along with Biodiesel and SVO boards. As here, input from all over the world.

[Ironwood]

I would love to hear more, I am running a 2000 PS 7.3, and would love to know how to proceed.

                          Ironwood

[cantcutter]

If you want to run B20 you just need to filter used veg oil and mix it 20% to diesel by volume. If you want to run pure Veg oil you need a second tank, lift pump, and fuel filter as well as a switch to control both pumps. The engine has to be brought up to operating temp on the diesel and then the swich shuts of one lift pump and turns on the other. (this set up does not work on mechanical pumps) If you are in a cold climate you also need to add a heat exchanger to the veg oil tank and circulate your engine coolant through it as a pre-heater for the oil.
Its really not that complicated.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Sometimes, I get things a little mixed up. Here ya go, Reid
 
  http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve?cdra=Y&s=447609751

  What happened to the part where you just used one or two words to post a link   I don't get that feature anymore

[Tom]

All you have ever had to do was cut and paste the URL into the message when you are creating it.

You might be thinking of creating a HyperLink.  That's when you hide the link and rename it in the post.  THat's what you did to this post, but it wasn't necessay. 

The simplified version of what you want to do is something that Jeff created and is one of those things that hasn't made it back yet.  I exsect he'll be looking at stuff like that when he gets back.  At least it shouldn't have to be recreated, just found.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Si Senor. Usted es correcto. 

[Polly]

 8)diesel engines produced before 2002 and the highway fuel provided ran fairly well you could add auto trans fluid occasionally which is high in sulfer content up north in winter the highway mix was 50per no1 kersonene and 50per no 2 fuel oil , after 2002 the fuel filters on most engines would stop up if you usedanything but fuel conditinor lykins oil in cincy ohio is mixing 2 persent resturant grease in their diesel if you use on regular basis will clog the filters and cause electronic injectors to start sticking my advise if you can find it is use no 2 fuel oil and power service or other name brand fuel conditinor and dont purchase 2007 model engines until they get all bugs out they are designed to run a higher temp than 2006 engines and the other components under the hood cant stand the extra heat alternator air cond compressor engine electronic injectors and etc    and bear it epa would tell you

[Ironwood]

FDH,

 Got to the site yesterday and registered. I could never really find the discussion on what was best for the lubricity issue.

                      Reid

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Reid
 Type in power stroke in the find button. Here's what I got

  http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=search&reqWords=power+stroke

[snowman]

I have a 94 F-250 turbo that went through 3 injector pumps while it was inder warranty. Ford dealer suggested useing ATF for lubricity, that didn't get me anything but smoke.I then started useing additives and never had another problem.Now that the gov has made everyone use additives because they have ruined diesel, I can't help but wonder what all the additives are putting in the air. As I said earlier, I now run offroad diesel but still use additives, can't be to careful I figure, injector pumps are spendy.

[OneWithWood]

To keep the terminology correct.  B20 means a blend of 80% petro diesel and 20% bio diesel.  It does not refer to any blending of straight vegetable oil (SVO) or used restaurant oil (WVO).

Reid, search using
'lubricity' or 'lubrication' and you should find a number of posts.  Like here, you often need to read pages of a thread to find it.  Be sure to search the biodiesel board as well as SVO and blending.

If you would like more specific information about bio diesel processing PM me.  We have discussed it before in the Alternative Fuels board.  If you don't find what you need there I would be happy to start another thread in that board.  Let me know.

[Ironwood]

One w/ Wood,

 Thanks. I really don't want an indepth. I have a friend that processes fryer oil from bars (he is the maintence guy for a beer dist. and pays the drivers for gallons).

 What I do want is an "off the shelf" solution if there is in fact an issue of lack of lubrication i nthe new Low Sulphur fuel. I really have too many other things worry about. I had thought of this issue last spring when the ULSD came out but never saw anything in the market to address it, so I thought it was a non issue.

       Ironwood

[Polly]

      i had two ford 1984 model diesel trucks the injection pumps would go bade on regular basis the o rings rubber would harden and start chipping off i thought they had fixed problem apparently not

[Ed_K]

 I thought it was a non issue too, when I got my first load of ulsd I asked my dealer if it was going to be ok for older engines. They said no problem and I didn't need any additives. I still added the Power Stroke. Now y'all got me wondering? What about a 2 stroke detroit engine?

[cantcutter]

? What about a 2 stroke detroit engine?

Are there any around anymore? I figure unless somebody has one in a greyhound conversion that they are all long gone.

[Polly]

  out of curosity i wonder what all did use the two stroke detroit i took a course on their design back in late 1950s but not their application

[jackpine]

Polly, I have a 353 Detroit in my Tree Farmer forwarder, date unkown. The Detroit series 53 service manual that I have is dated 1985 and the oldest section is dated 1971. Besides forewarders I don't know what else they were used in. But there are Detroit fans on here who will jump in and let us know.

Bill

[cantcutter]

They where common in large boats and off road tractors up until 1998 or so. They phased them out of on road vehicles in the early 80s. They where prone to "Running Away" and when it happened they could not be shut down and the engines would blowup.