If anyone is interested in wind energy......

[tsodak]

I have been working on assembling parts to put a five KW grid tied wind generator together this winter. Looks to me like there are a lot of tinkerers and do it yourselfers here, so I thought you might be interested. These guys I met in Kansas are building these out of off the shelf part, axcept for a few electrical components. That is my main critique of most wind systems, they are so highly engineered there is nothing you could even work on, let alone replace.

Anyway, here is the site.

www.prairieturbines.com


I also hang out a lot at www.otherpower.com  a great place to talk about alternative energy.

I have been following the biomizer daily, and when cogen becomes real, I am all over that. 

Thanks for all your information, and I hope this is of some value to someone.

Tom

[Deadwood]

Hey Tom,

I am way to busy now to deal with making a windmill as I am building a huge addition onto my house at the moment. Still I have been thinking about windmills for quite some time and I would like to build one maybe this summer.

I live on top of a good hill but Maine is not condusive to good "power wind". My Uncle spent 12 grand on a purchased windmill and found out the hard way the pay off here for something like that is over 10 years. By then he will need a new windmill so the cost doesn't really add up.

I have no disillusionments about going off the grid, but since my wife teaches about alternative power to 5th graders I think it would be neat to say we get x amount of our power from the wind. My line of thinking was if you could reduce the cost of making the windmill, the payoff would be a lot better. As a machinist/ woodworker I got some skills and access to tools (a whole machine shop) that would make the build feasible. I am seriously looking at making a verticle axis windmill at the moment as I think that would be the simpliest windmill to make.

I got way more thoughts, ideas and questions here, but this post is already too long. Feel free to email me if you got any pointers. I am all ears. Thanks for posting the links however. I will read them when I get a chance.

[Ianab]

My line of thinking was if you could reduce the cost of making the windmill, the payoff would be a lot better.

Thats they key I think.. if wind turbines were mass produced like washing machines they would cost a few hundred dollars. Stick one on a pole beside your house and pump any excess power back into the grid. I think the key is they have to be CHEAP and run for at least 10 years before they have to be replaced  or rebuilt. Cheap mass produced switching gear for connecting/disconnecting from the mains is important too. There is that safety thing where the local linesman thinks a line is disconnected, but your windmill is still pumping 100 watts into the 'dead' line 

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

I've seen a few personal windmills down around Oakfield and up around Presque Isle. I did see a couple in Oakfield that looked like the lightning busted them.

They are also waiting approval to begin construction of another wind farm in eastern Maine. The same company that put the windmills up on Mars Hill. I think a third farm is also in the planning. There is a wind farm going up in NB as well. The local DNR office has a wind mill as mentioned earlier in another thread we started last year.

[thecfarm]

I checked out windmills about 20 years ago.I was looking at a big one.There was no power up here at that time.That's all they had than.Now I've seen some small one's that the blade is not much bigger than than 2 feet across.Don't know how much a small can produce.If you are looking at a big one,make it as a guide wire type.Alot cheaper when I was looking,the cables hold it steady.Batteries were the killer.The wind mill was $20000 and the batteries were $5000.Seems like the batteries would only last 5-10 years.I was looking for a system that would run the whole house off grid.But this was all 20 years ago.Alot has probaly changed since than.Did you go to Commom Ground Fair this year,Deadwood?They would of had a lot of infro for that.The safety factor to protect the lineman should not be too bad.I have a Gentrac in my house and all I have to is flick on whatever switches I want the generator to feed.There is no switch that I have to turn off and on to go on line or off line. The lineman is in no danger the way mine is set up.Unless the bypass goes to bad.I had an electrician wire this in when we was having the house built.

[tsodak]

This machine is what is known as a synchronous system, meaning its power output is synchronized witht hat of the grid through the interconnect. Thus, if the line power goes down, the brake circuit closes and the machine stops.  No danger of back feeds, but no emergency backup power either. Se le vi.

What is most impressive about this system to me is that it is "farmer engineered". When the big companies design something like this they use refined parts designed just for the application that pork perfectly. The probelm is, when they break ( and you and I know they will) you ahve to lokk all over he!! to find replacements. In this system, you use a motor you can find anywhere, a frame and tower you build yourself out of locally available steel, pillow block bearings, blades from 2x12's etc, etc. I am not electrically inclined, but they show you how to build the electrical interconnect and everything. Everyplace I look a similiar machine would cost you 15 to 20K. I think using scrap and pieceing it tigether I can do it for 2 grand. I got the motor off ebay for a hundred bucks delivered. I am thinking about belt driving, but also looking for hte right gear box.

I am serious though, some of you would be very intrigued if you poked into it a bit I think.

Tom

[Deadwood]

Yeah I went to the Common Ground Fair...kind of funny since my family did all the ground work for the place and yet this was my first time at the fair. Anyway they had some information there.

From what I gather, trying to go-off grid is a big windturbine killer. Its just way too much to do, but if you are only trying to supplement your power then its more reasonable. Not trying to chide you theCFarm just stating what I heard. To me that makes sense.

Now my Uncle claimed if you built your house around electric appliances you could make up the cost of the windturbine quicker. His theory was when the wind was blowing you would be getting more out of it and doing more work. (Electric heat, water, lights, refrigerator, etc). That is because here the power company (Central Maine Power) will not buy the excess power from you, rather they give you a credit for the power you do buy when the wind is not blowing.

Its kind of a fine line, because if you get a big enough system, and have the winds, you could do more with the electricity your windmill does produce, but since the wind does not always blow, when you do end up buying electricity, you pay would have a bigger bill or use up more credits.

Now you would think if you produce more power than you consume, the power company would buy it off you. Not so and they don't have to. You just keep getting credits but no big check. In fact no check at all. My uncle feels anyway that if his house used more electrical appliances, he could pay off the windmill quicker.

I am not so sure on that. Currently I am switching over to propane powered hot water, heat, clothes drying and kitchen stove. This will replace my electric clothes dryer, domestic hot water and kitchen stove and I hope really drive down my electrical cost per month. I would think that building a small windmill that helped with my new smaller electrical needs would help up the percentage of power it produces overall for my home. If the windmill is home-made and low cost to build, I would think the pay-off would be quicker.

Maybe my thoughts are flawed and my Uncle is right? I don't know, but its statistics and you can really manipulate them anyway you want.

[Deadwood]

I am serious though, some of you would be very intrigued if you poked into it a bit I think.

Tom

Yeah I poked into your links Tom and it was intriguing. You got me to thinking and I like that. I even joined up and hope to do some more poking. I know just enough about electricity to be dangerous!!

As a side bar, I really liked the squirrel cage hydro-turbine that website had (other power) and to think with only a 2 foot head. Kind of makes me wished I lived around water of some kind. Unfortunately I live on a hill (Stupid hill)

[stonebroke]

In NY NYSERDA pays up to 60% of the cost of a windmill for farmers. It is less for homeowners. This makes the payback reasonable. 5 to 7 years. Much better deal than solar panels.

Stonebroke

[pineywoods]

Deadwood you are in for a rude surprise.  Switching from electric to propane will cut the electric bill, but just wait till you get the bill for propane. Propane comes from oil, and we all know how unstable that market is.

electric power from the wind sounds real good, free power. Question is how much power.
A big windmill with blades made from 2X12 might produce a couple of horsepower in a good strong wind.  How big a generator can you run with that?? maybe maybe 750 watts or enough to run half a dozen light bulbs.
I went to the links in this thread, very interesting and a lot of good information.
One subject completely ignored was blade design. A windmill blade is the exact same thing as a propeller. ever see an airplane with a 2X6 bolted on the front??

Now don't think I am trying to discourage you, far from it.  What I'm trying to get across is don't let wishfull thinking get in the way of common sense. You can't backyard engineer around the laws of physics.

Mean while, keep on dreaming and tinkering. It's fun.

[tsodak]

At this point you will have to work pretty hard to discourage me. I stopped and looked at these machines on my way to Denver this spring, and looked at the blades. The guys went through numerous designs, and have a pretty rigid plan for machining them so they dont create to much power. If you really study wind, in my area that is what you have to worry about. The small machine I have on my roof went crazy in a 60 mph gust last spring and created enough power for a few minutes to melt my whole little system. This is a four blade design, and the motor you need demands a 7.5 Horsepower. They have a meter on it down there. The day I was there the wind was rolling about 20-25 mph and it was putting out a solid 5-5.5 kw. Aircraft proppelers were once made of the same stuff that is in a 2x12, they were just a whole lot more machined and finished. Sometimes the brute strength method of engineering appeals to me.

Tom

[Deadwood]

Deadwood you are in for a rude surprise.  Switching from electric to propane will cut the electric bill, but just wait till you get the bill for propane. Propane comes from oil, and we all know how unstable that market is.

electric power from the wind sounds real good, free power. Question is how much power.
A big windmill with blades made from 2X12 might produce a couple of horsepower in a good strong wind.  How big a generator can you run with that?? maybe maybe 750 watts or enough to run half a dozen light bulbs.
I went to the links in this thread, very interesting and a lot of good information.
One subject completely ignored was blade design. A windmill blade is the exact same thing as a propeller. ever see an airplane with a 2X6 bolted on the front??

Now don't think I am trying to discourage you, far from it.  What I'm trying to get across is don't let wishfull thinking get in the way of common sense. You can't backyard engineer around the laws of physics.

Mean while, keep on dreaming and tinkering. It's fun.

I know what you are saying, but I think you are a bit off-based here. Propane is derived from oil yes, but it is a by-product of the refining process and the majority here in Maine comes from New Brunswick and Nova Scotia so the price is not as volatile as oil that comes from overseas and beyond. I've been burning propane for years in my house and the price is quite a bit below heating oil and is far more efficient than electricity. That is because with propane you can control the flame better and not get soot build up like oil systems. At the same time, heating with electricity, whether it is air or water has never been a good return for the buck.

In fact they claim I can spend up to 4 bucks a gallon for propane and it will still be cheaper than heating my water with electricity. Personally I expect my electric bill to drop by 60 bucks...and from what the burner techs told me, I won't be burning 60 dollars more in propane so I will be a lot farther ahead in the long run. I'm also adding in future connections for solar water heat and compost heat so my domestic hot water will be taken care of in the summer without resorting to propane powered hot water.

As for the propeller anology, cute but a bit off based again. As a machinist who works for a very high-end yacht building company I deal with props all day. I mean "Have you ever seen a boat with a 2 x 12 strapped to it?" Of course you have, they are called paddle wheelers with 1000's of 2x 12's strapped to it, but have since been refined over the years to the adjustable pitched bronze allow props you see today. At the same time, vertical rotors like I want to build are completely different beasts altogether than props.

As for backyard creations, I feel they generate new inventions and ideas and I don't see anyone "backyard engineering around the laws of physics". What I see are people returning to the most basic of roots for a given problem and working with what they got. Check out this guy. He saw footage of a bridge collapsing back in the 1930's and thought "I can turn that physics phenomenon into electricity." Watch the video and you will see what I mean. He's working with physics here I just can't see why no one else has thought of it until now. The concept is just brilliant..

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4224763.html?series=37

[SwampDonkey]

What you pay for electric Deadwood? My bill for this old ark of a farm house is less then $100 in the coldest winter month, usually hovers around $70 now since our rates jumped a couple times since last year. I could save about 5 bucks if I just bought my own hot water heater. They are cheap these days.

I dunno, I always think stuff over and far down the road. My parents waisted so much money on stuff that was going to save money, it's just pathetic. A lot of it was due to mis information from the proprietor and 'got to have it attitude' of my mother at times.

Now if ya want to save money, a fellow should be like the neighbor's wife. Attend ceramics class to fill in for the pupil that paid for the class. All ya gotta do is call around the community to see who ain't going that week and go to fill the spot. Won't cost ya a cent, other than gas money and if ya finesse enough, you might even get a free ride out of the deal.

[Mr Mom]

Not to start anything but doesnt propane come from natural gas and not oil??
I was told from a friend that works for a gas company that it comes from natural gas they make it some how.
Thanks Alot Mr Mom

[Tom]

It is derived from both.  There is/was a really good show on the production of LPG on "how it's made".  I watched it about a month ago and wish they would show it again  It's the kind of show that makes you say "that's too short".   It was really interesting.

[Ianab]

Not to start anything but doesnt propane come from natural gas and not oil??
I was told from a friend that works for a gas company that it comes from natural gas they make it some how.
Thanks Alot Mr Mom

It's not so much made as seperated out. An 'oil' well usually produces a mix of oil and gas thats seperated out at the production station. The ethane/methane is natural gas, the propane/butane is usually pressuried to liquify it (LPG) and the heavier stuff goes to the refinery to be further processed into other fuels and solvents.

Exactly what proportions come out the ground depends on whats down there to start with, but it's usually some mix of the various compounds.

Cheers

Ian

[Deadwood]

I was talking to my boiler man today and explaining this thread and he said something I did not realize. Maine has the HIGHEST electrical rates in the country. That would make a huge difference on why my electrical costs versus propane costs would be so out of whack.

Here we pay 15 cents a KW so going to propane makes a lot more sense than in other parts of the country. I don't know why I did not think of that before....

[Bernie]

 Here with Southern California Edison we are paying 20 to 25 cents a KWH. Most is made with natural gas  for cleaner air.

[SwampDonkey]

My rate is 9.8 cents.

[Deadwood]

That's it, I am moving back to Fort Fairfield and running an extension line over to your place Swamp Donkey!!