Buzz about sawmill insurance vs. bandsaw mill insurance

[Kelvin]

Recently my home owners insurance just dropped me out of the blue b/c i had an "uninsured" business on my property.  I told my agent that i was a contractor, but they just sent me a letter without asking any questions, or telling me what they are having trouble with.  So, i'm out looking for insurance and coming up with all sorts of trouble.  2 of the big companies around me State Farm and Farm Bureau agents asked whether i use "finishes" in my woodshop.  I said, i think most people in the world who make anything use "finishes"  Sorry, we don't insure the use of "finishes"  This makes me wonder if i promised to only use wax finish if that would work?

There has been a number of threads about insurance and sawmilling, but i'm wondering about how dangerous band mills really are.  There are probably difficult agents, but it may be coming from the top down that they don't want anymore claims no matter how much they charge.  I've been calling around to different contractor insurance agents and some are super worry warts and if you ask them any questions, like "i sell some things from my shop, what happens if people come out to buy something?"  They respond like the sky is falling.  "oh, buy things?  They could get hurt!"

I'm trying to explain to these agents that "sawmill" is not an all encompassing term.  My sawmill isn't much bigger than the 19" bandsaw in my shop.  It just goes up and down a track and cuts logs.  THey do make shop bandsaws that have a sled for cutting small logs in a woodshop, is this a "sawmill" with the same risks and liablities as a Plum Creek sawmill operation?  Basically i've tried explaining that i've been in business for about 10 years and haven't made much more than about $8k in any given year and that i'm mostly an independent contractor, but i want to play by the book and be upfront about everything i do.  What underwriter in their right mind is going to listen to anything you have to say after you say, "well, its just a small sawmill"?  I suppose the biggest liablity of a bandsaw mill is the log handling?  You don't need any special insurance in your woodshop for your bandsaw, which i don't think is a far fetched comparision.  Its not like my table saw is like a circular mill.  I mean one blade is close in size, my bandsaw will run a 1" band blade, and my mill runs a 1 1/4" bandblade while a table saw blade is 10" while a circular mill is 48"-54"

Doesn't the industry keep track of things like accidents with the use of small mills?  Wouldn't bandsaw mill manufacturs be interested in helping form an affordable sawmill insurance industry?  Couldn't they get together some accident statitics and safety information about real world use of bandsaw sawmills?  Have an attorney, or whoever could do somthing that would be recognized by insurance companies, like car crash tests.   Most people probably don't know there are differences.  From my understanding a small manual push milll like my neighbors Norwood, is a sawmill like my other neighbors circular sawmill.  Which do you think has much liablity?  Which has more potential to harm the operator? 

I tried asking what constitutes a hobby, and they said the exposure is just the same, whether i make no money or a lot, its still a sawmill.  Does anyone out there have any reasonable costing insurance?  What would you think someone would pay to cover liablity on a business venture that might someday bring in $15k, but is currently bringing in less than $10k.  $2k? 

Isn't sawmilling and logging an agricultural industry covered by the USDA?  Historically farms had sawmills right?  Did they not get coverage from their farming operation?  Why would this be different now?  Shouldn't Farm Bureau, who covers farmers around here, cover other farming related activities?

Right now i'm trying to bait the insurance agencys with covering my whole operation, house, business and cars.  Its not too much, but i figure it might be my only shot at getting something.  Another thing i don't understand is why they can't insure my other operations, say my contracting and exclude my sawmilling?  Why would they have to cancel my home insurance instead of just saying we won't cover the sawmill?  I would be fine saying i don't think my sawmill is a big exposure, just let me buy some fire insurance or something to insure it like any other expensive piece of equipment.  I don't even have people around the thing, so i'm not too worried about anyone getting hurt by it.

Boy this is frustrating!  I've called 6 or 7 local companies and just getting someone to talk with is frustrating.  An agent wouldn't begin to think of talking directly with you.  You talk with their secretary who takes all your information only to say on your message machine the next day "oh, we don't insure barns"  Augh!  Why did i spend 1/2 hour telling you my drivers license number and my wifes birthday?  I even try to get around them.  "hello, yes i'd like to get a quote on some home insurance, but would like to know can you insure wooden barns?"  "I don't know, let me get your information, then i'll ask the agent"  Augh!!!    I only get 1/2 of the people to even call back and i haven't even mentioned the woodworking business.  Then when we get into the situation they all have to talk with their underwriters who must be in siberia or something b/c it takes a week or so to hear back that they said "sawmill?"  HA, ha, ha, ha, ha, thats a good one!"  Is there any insurance company that makes their own decisions?  Who i can show what is happening?  Show the bandsaw to?  Boy, how can i take money from people who own bandsaw mills by making my own insurance?  This seems to be a good way to make money with sawmilling.  Insuring sawmills! 

I bet a lot of people would be surprised if they called their home owners insurance company and said.  "I have a small, manual push sawmill, would this pose any problem with my insurance?"  "Click"  "hello?  Hello, anybody there?"  I bet they would get a letter in the mail saying they need to get a new insurance company. 

Just wondering what the latest word is on any national company that would be reasonable for small operations in the Midwest.  I'm in michigan.  Who might someone check with?  How can i word what i'm looking for to make sure i'm actually covered, but not bring up crazy people's red flags?  Any help or ideas would be good,
Thanks
kelvin

[olyman]

in the state of iowa----farm bureau. allstate..state farm,john deere--and progressive--have no part of them--expensive--and a ripoff if claim time--i get my insurance out of state--from westfield ins co--dont rem the town--they are very reasonable---

[Kansas]

Dont bother trying and explain bandmills to insurance agents.... you will have better luck herding cats. Insurance for us was a nightmare until about 2 years ago when Pennsylvania Mutual started insuring in the state of Kansas. I dont know if it would be economically feasible for you or not, but you might try them. (I assume they operate in the state of michigan.) You have to go through an independent insurance agent to get it. They specialize in insuring sawmills, lumberyards, etc..... so you dont have to explain what a bandmill is.

[BBTom]

Canada has Woodchuck insurance, It came about when a bunch of Woodmizer owners wanted bandmill insurance.  They went directly to the underwriters, and now they have insurance. 

I know we have discussed insurance here a few times before.  Maybe we should try getting the attention of some underwriters.

If you look close enough at the trade shows, like Paul Bunyan, etc.  You might find a small insurance company that does insurance on logging and bandmills. 

[BBK]

I guess I'm pretty lucky in the fact the farming buisness has carried the insurance for the sawmill and logging. Never had a problem with the agents as Sawmilling, Logging and Barn building are listed as agricultural buisness pursiuts in the insurance industry.

Have you tried to get info on insurance underwrithers from your local soil conservation. DNR or state buisness development people? Another source could be the local chamber of commerce. Here in MD the state university has local agricultural annex services that can tap the university data centers for this type of info too.

Good Luck.

[farmerdoug]

Kelvin,

Checkout this thread.

insurance

Farmerdoug

[bull]

I have Farm Bureau insurance.... Never any questions re finishes or sawmill... everything insured  by them 2 million in liability and 100 % replacement on house, outbuildings and equipment also riders for leased and financed equipment....  Around $4000.00 a year... Previously was paying around 7500.00 per year for less coverage spread between 4 insurance companies.....

[lmbeachy]

Kelvin, not sure if they do business in Mich, but you can give them a try. Penn. Lumbermans Mutual. Phone # 215-625-9233 Lester

[ely]

all i can tell you is good luck when trying to work out an insurance policy, and even more good luck if you ever have an actual claim to file.

most insurance companies are all owned by the same holding company anyway, and last time i spoke with a lawyer he told me that was a total of about 3 big corporations. down here if you get mad at farm bureau and go to state farm you are still paying the same people.

i use farm bureau and have since 25 years ago,home ,auto and thats about it for me.

[Part_Timer]

I have farm bureau and had to get an underwriter for mine.  I had a lot of trouble before I went LLC.  Once that was done it took less than 2 weeks, we are insured for cutting here at home, customer sites as well as sawing at shows.  Also covered is replacement of the mill of stolen for damaged.  2 million for just north of $800 a year based on 10K of income.

[Kelvin]

Howdy,
Thanks for the all the replies.  I've called a bunch more places and have had the oddest conversations trying to describe what we do.  Part-timer, farm bureau for $800 sounds great!  I'll have to give them another call and see.  Maybe i'll try an agent in another town as they might be more interested in making money.  I'll call lumbermans as well.  I think that is the company a number of places have mentioned using anyhow.  Might as well go direct!
Thanks
kelvin

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

As usual, great thread, Kelvin.

It's great to see someone around here is more verbose than I am.
 
And that's quite a keyboard feat!
 
Phil L.

[schmism]

Ive got a simular problem.  The old farm we bought has a non-liveable farm house on it. We are in the process of donating it to the local volinteer fire dept for training to have burnt down.  But no insurance company will touch us with the house as it stands.

im currently in some grey area of the insurance world.... "what if i was building a house that was non-inhabitable"  well that would be covered under the "construction umbrella"   ok well part of constructing a new house, is destryoing the old one.  When will you be starting construction?  Oh in 3 years?  ya, construction umbrella runs for 12 months.  so that wont work.....

We set a single wide trailer on the property to live in while the old house is demolished (burnt) and we get plans together to rebuild (in the same spot).    but when we set the trailer it was 3 months before we had power permantly trenched in, septic hooked up, water trenched in etc.  For that 3 months we couldnt get insurance.  because there was no skirting and no front stairs (i hadnt built the front deck/stairs yet as i was trying to get utilities hooked up)  The bank said we can put you on our insurance.... fine we said... then we got a call from the bank saying THERE underwriter wouldnt cover it unless it was habitable (utilites hooked up)   we were like WTF! 

once it was habitable you start calling around for moblie home insurance, people think you want the structure covered and your stuff inside.  No libilty as they figure its sitting in a trailer park (you dont own the ground it sits on)  but its sititng on my private 5 acers, I NEED libility.   but then they dont cover the other buildings (barn/garage)  and they dont cover cars so i cant get a mulit-line discount (worth as much as 10-15%)

The bank insurance covers structure only... not personal property.... but i still have a house in the city im trying to sell with normal homeowners coverage.  I asked when we bought the property, if i take personal property out there, and it gets stolen, burnt, tornato comes through.... is it covered.... there response, your personal property is covered no matter were it is.

SO im in this limbo of grey area, im sorta insured, but not really?   Not to mention im on the verge of being classified as a "farm" as i have a tractor,"livestock", a barn etc.   and you toss out the world "farm" to an insurance angency like statefarm and OMG! the sky is falling!

so as others have said, seems the best approach for me is also farm bureau.

[bull]

are you using the other house as your leg residence.... The trailer may be considered as a 2nd home or camp and covered under the homeowners policy for your "legal" residence.......

Or set up the Farm under a "buisness name"  IE: "So and So Farm" and then join Farm Bureau as a Farm not individual and get the insurance you need.. It not cheap !!!

[Brucer]

Unfortunately, the Woodchuck insurance is only available in Canada. However, I do believe that if some FF members got together and approached a broker, something similar could become available in the US.

As BBTom said, it started when a group of Wood-Mizer owners approached a broker. She went to one of their meetings, saw the saws in action, checked out their safety features, talked about how the small sawyer worked, and then asked the key question -- "How many of these things are there anyway?"

This is actually the kind of market the insurance companies love. It's very well defined, so they can predict their claims payouts pretty accurately.

Even though the Woodchuck program started with WM mills, they quickly expanded it to include the other major portable sawmill brands.

So, get a bunch of fellow sawyers together, all in one region, all with the same type of mill, and find a broker. Get them to actually look at the mills in action. Have some numbers ready -- here's how many brand X mills in this state, here's how many brand Y mills, and so on. Refer 'em to the folks in Canada.

[stumpy]

It's simple, Insurance companies irst determine if there is any risk in what you want to insure.  If not, then they will insure you.  If there is any risk, they won't insure you.

[Dan_Shade]

if there's no risk, why have insurance?  insurance companies are one of my pet peeves, but i guess if I ever need a claim, i'll be glad I have it.

[DR_Buck]

Dan Shade

insurance companies are one of my pet peeves, but i guess if I ever need a claim, I'll be glad I have it.

                   What he said !   
My Farm Bureau agent won't  touch the sawmill side of the farm business.    They cover all the farm activities, house, out buildings, livestock and my vehicles.  But not the sawmill or related activities.   There's a company out of West Chester PA that will sell sawmill insurance that covers the mill.  Not the milling activities.  No liability!

I have my sawmill business and all the mill equipment including my log trailer and loader covered by Burns & Wilcox-Scottsdale out of Baltimore.  It's a commercial package that has $2,000,000 liability, personal injury, medical and full replacement for my equipment loss by fire, theft etc.  I have no employees (this is key).  The coverage runs just over $1200 a year.

I don't know what other states Burns & Wilcox provide coverage in.  My agent is located in Locust Grove VA.  Anyone interested in contact information can PM me and I'll provide the name & phone number.

[Brucer]

Actually, what insurance companies do is assess the risk, estimate how much they will have to pay out in claims, and then set the premiums to exactly cover the claims.

So how do they make any money, you ask? Simple -- think of the insurance company as holding onto the clients' money (premiums) in trust, and then redistributing it to those who desperately need it (claims). All the time they're holding onto the money, it generates interest.

The real problem is that insurance companies want to be sure they have the risks -- and resulting costs -- figured out accurately. If they don't, they could take a major loss. When they aren't sure they add a major safety factor onto their premiums.

Insurance companies love well-defined, moderately large, low-risk markets. They don't want to deal with one-off situations, even if they're perceived to be low-risk, because they're only collecting the one premium. No matter how small the odds of a claim, if a claim is made it will never be offset by that one premium.

[wls]

So do I need insuance, I'm getting a mill, cutting only for my own use. I could see maybe insurance for theft etc.

[Kelvin]

I think this is the situation most people find themselves in when buying a mill.  I believe that most mills would get your home owners insurance canceled unless you have a seperate policy on it, b/c its a risky thing to have around.  Just think if you aquired something else that was considered "dangerous" that you put on your property.  It has a potential to injure you and others so why would they want it there?  Insurance companies can tell you what you can and cannot have on your property or they will remove coverage if they sense a dangerous situation. 

This is my point.  I think anyone who buys a sawmill is at the mercy of the agent to make a judgment call as to safety.  Are they inclined to overreact?  I believe so.  I think that quite a few people have had their insurance policy revoked b/c an agent saw their mill.  What constitues a sawmill?  Do you think that any agent that calls their underwriter and says "hey do we cover sawmills on peoples property, even if they say they use it for themselves?"  What do you think they tend to say?  I think this is something that the sawmill industry needs to take up and deal with.  When i called woodmizer after i found out i couldn't get coverage for less than $800 a year just to have a mill on my property they said they had no ideas on how to get any.  I think now they might have some numbers for Lumberman's but this is essentially quite expensive compared to say a quad runner (which is more dangerous?)  Us small guys are getting hosed by the insurance company b/c they just tack on some zeros when they don't know.  Better safe than sorry and we pay the price.  Just my feeling.  I still haven't found any coverage for calling the last two weeks or more.  They are still waiting to hear from their underwriters.
KP

[Andy Harden]

Here is some addresses of insurance providers from the TimberKing web site.

American Interstate Insurance Company
2301 Hwy 190 West
DeRidder, LA 70634
800-897-9719

Davis-Garvin Agency Inc.
PO Box 21627
Columbia, SC 29221
800-845-3163

[bull]

I don't know of any adequate coverage for under $1000.00.... If you are going to get any coverage be prepared to pay for it.....  If your a gambler go without "goodluck.......

[mike_van]

Just my 2 cents on mill insurance - If I had a portable mill [I don't] I'd be worried about theft.  Gas engine, [I don't] I'd be worried about fire. If I allowed anyone to help [I don't do that either] I'd worry about liability if they got hurt. Or, an employee too.  [I don't]  So, the barn has fire insurance, myself & family are under medical coverage, and the mill - Well, I could rebuild or replace anything on it, not counting my labor [which I don't have to] for 2000.00 or less. 17 years now that I've had it & run it with no "claim" type problems.  I hear what you're saying about no-nothing agents Kelvin, I'd rather not have to deal with one, so I don't.  A person with a 9N Ford can be more dangerous than a Woodmzer, a homeowner with a new chainsaw from Wal-mart can be too.  I wonder if the insurance company "drops" them?

[Kelvin]

Thanks for the all the posts with insurance links.  I'll try them to see if anyone has something for people who are small.  I'll post here if i find anything.  Its weird how one company, say farm bureau, will cover some people in some states and not others.  Wouldn't the same company have the same policy everywhere?  The one post here said farm bureau charges them $800 for coverage on site and mobile.  This seems close to reasonable.  Why wouldn't all farm bureau agents have the same info?  Guess its up to individuals at some point.  We'll get this figured out and i think there is going to be some good buisness for someone who wakes up to the idea as others have pointed out, there are probably a lot of us little guys around.  I think most of us are operating without insurance as we haven't informed our agents, so if something happened it would be not covered. 
KP

[Dan_Shade]

one of the things I do in my "day job" is pretty intensive risk analysis.  That consists of about 10 people sitting around a table conversing over varying degrees of risk and consequence for a possible risk.  it's somewhat of an abstract way of thinking, but after doing it for a few years, i've become somewhat good at assessing risks, consequences, and mitigations to risk.

all of that said, I'm a firm believer that the the risk of injury with a portable sawmill lies mainly in the back injury area.  as far as "getting hurt" while using the mill is probably quite rare.  I feel the sawyers largest risk is to cut himself while changing bands.  

a woodworking shop in a garage or basement is much more dangerous than a portable bandsaw mill when it comes to "cutting" injuries.  i'm sure more people are missing digits due to a jointer mishap than a bandsawmill mishap.

jointers, tablesaws, and radial arm saws scare the crap out of me when I use them (which is good), i'm relatively "comfortable" while using my woodmizer.

Personally, I'd like to see Wood-mizer jump in the ring here, they understand the risk pretty well, and it would be a great point of entry for a lot of folks.

[Don_Papenburg]

I had my homeowners dropped once for the inapropriate bred of dog . Called the agent and asked what bred of dog do I need to have ? He had no clue what I was talking about . the company had not informed him of any of the crap they were pulling . If they had he would have informed them that we had zero dogs.

[Brian_Rhoad]

Nothing against guns, I have quite a few, or hunting, I love to hunt, but you never hear of anyone being dropped for having a gun in the house. I think there are more guns than sawmills and they have the potential to do more harm than a mill. Dropping or refusing coverage because of having a sawmill just does'nt make any sense at all, but I know it happens.

[customsawyer]

I have a liability insurance that covers my whole bus. which includes reforestation, (tree planting, mowing, herbicide spraying, precomercial thinning, subsoiling, sod scalping) my sawmill with related activities, and I also run my back-hoe commercialy a little bit, plus I do just about anything else someone wants done as long as it don't interfer with my sawmill. All of these things are covered under my one blanket policy as a forestry company through Scottsdale. I don't remember off the top of my head what the premium is but it is somewhere in the $1800.00 range. This is for a million dollars coverage. I also have to maintain a million dollars of coverage on my pickup truck since it is what I use to go onto some of the large landowners property like the paper companies and such and they require it if you are going to drive on to there place. I don't mind having the coverage on my truck since I use it to pull all my trailers with logs, tractors, back-hoe, or lumber and if you ever get in a accident pulling something like that I can just about bet you will get a call from a lawyer in this deal, and he won't be trying to help you.

[srt]

Just a thought here.  If they haven't already cancelled you, you may wish to consider either cancelling them first, or making things (at least for now) meet their specs.  I just got some more insurance, and was surprised by the question on the form that asks: Have you ever been denied insurance, or had insurance cancelled ? 

Now I don't mean to put a scare into you.  Could be they're just fishing with that question.  Could be that they use that question to disqualify you if you ever do have a claim and they find you "forgot" to mention you'd been cancelled by someone else.

Maybe someone here knows more about that question, and what insurance companies do with it?

[lmbeachy]

srt. That is a very important point srt. I am an insurance agent, and no they are not just fishing when they ask that question. Lester

[flip]

Insurance?  What's that   I have absolutely no insurance on my mill and do not intend to, just personal preference.

[Kelvin]

Well i've only got one person to offer me insurance, and that is for $1500, which is looking like my only option.  I've spent about 10 hours this week on the phone, repeating my story to about every agent in town.  They probably are all calling the same underwriter who just says "That Kelvin Potter guy?  No way!"  I've talked to about 30 people literaly.  A funny thing keeps happening.  I explain this started out as a hobby and gotten bigger, so i'm looking for insurance to cover my woodmizer bandmill and my contracting business as a carpenter.  They always think they can do something.  I always tell them everything about the situation, to do other is pointless b/c they are going to come out and look anyhow.  Then i say what i would like to insure.  I make lumber, i would like to sell lumber here, and make and sell cabinetry and do handyman stuff.  No problem.  Then i usually get a call back in about a couple of hours. 

"kelvin?" 
"Yes?" 
"We found your website!"  Long dramatic pause. 
me... "okay??"  What about it?" 
"We don't cover operations like that!" 
"You mean a bandsaw that makes lumber that i sell from my shop?"
"Yes"

You mean b/c you see what i told you in pictures its somehow different now?  I guess these people aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack.  I tell them honestly that i've made between $8k-$10k selling lumber last year and it amounts to about 1/4 of my work, the other being handyman.  For those of you who haven't seen my website click on Ravenfarm.com on the bottom of the page i believe.  I assume whats happening is that my website, that we put together in 2 hours, looks so professional, that even though its gotten me about zero actual business it is scaring these worry warts?  What do you think?  Turns out you can't just unplug your website.  Google remembers it for 30 days, so i can't just get rid of it.  Thought about modifying it to say...  "we don't do hardly anything here at Raven farm sawmill.  We certainly wouldn't do anything that would be dangerous like make lumber!"

Here are a couple of things agents have said to me after i ask them some questions.

Them  "We don't insure sawmills operations."

me  "What if i sold the sawmill, its the only piece of equipment i have that is really sawmill specific. iIm not really a sawmill operation, per se.  I mean i'm being lumped in with Home Depot by your underwriters" 

"We still wouldn't insure you b/c those stacks of lumber are a hazard.  If a neighborhood kid comes to steal some, and they pull the stack down on them, you'd be sued!"  (this is what they really said!)

I've been directed to a nearby sawmill that employes about 100 people and probably grosses millions. 
"go ask them who they use!"  Duh!!!

Some things i've found out.  Penn. Lumbermans only insures big operations.  Their cheapest policy is $2,500 i was told by a salesman there.
Farm bureau in michigan will not insure a sawmill period.  Even though they do in other states, not michigan.  All the numbers given by timberking didn't work for me either.  I think they didn't do business in michigan as i recall.  I've started directing agents to my website first now, so they survive the heart attack it induces.  Now i'm in real trouble b/c after picking up a whole whack of logs from a local tornado i've got about 20 stacks of stickered lumber.  Not to mention i can't even sell any, but think of the liablility!
I at least talked to an old agent who at least agrees with me about the underwriters.  He said they are quiver lumps of humanity that don't care if they say "no" cause they make the same amount of money anyways.  Where is the interest to think about a new subject and care if you can write one policy?  If it hasn't been done before, there is a reason!!!! 

Another funny thing is that most of the guy insurance agents all want to buy lumber from me and want to know if i can saw logs.  They say "I know a bunch of guys who are looking to find a portable sawmill guy to come saw up some logs"
I say "well, seeing as i can't buy insurance i probably won't be able to do that for you"  Hmmmm.....

So, with my business policy on my dump truck i will have to pay a total of $2200 to make about $5k this year.  Sound good to you?  I don't understand why they say no, instead of just making it expensive.  I mean, why not insure anybody, just change your rates to make up for the risk right? 

You don't see them bandmill magazine ads with the pictures of money on them, showing insurance agents sneaking around taking it all do you? 
Here's a catchy ad.
"Turn your logs into lumber so you can afford to pay your insurance agent!"
Well, i'll keep you informed of what i ultimately find out.  Most agents just never call back.  Thats an interesting business practice.
KP

[logwalker]

That was a good post Kelvin. We live in an age when the last word on just about anything is the insurance companies. They are followed closely by the lawyers.

All you hear about in the current election is the war and health insurance for everybody. We already spend 20% of our GNP in this country on health care. Who knows what will happen once we are all covered. 

What I find intriguing is that in my short lifetime (56), we have gone from almost no one having insurance to the prospect of our govt. insuring everyone.

If I found myself in your shoes I would seriously consider going bare. But I can only do this because I don't carry a mortgage.

Have you considered an LLC to at least protect yourself from a big lawsuit? I am sorry to hear about this as we could all be in the same boat if we aren't already.

Is this forum the longterm answer to this problem? Can we all form a large enough purchasing  block to get the underwriters interested? Was there a thread about this somewhere? Joe

[ely]

kelvin i am sorry for your troubles but thanks for the laughs anyway.  i have had the very same discussions with those folks myself.  my all time favorites are the folks who tell me that i owe income taxes because i own a sawmill. i just tell them when they can show me the income i will pay some taxes.

[johncinquo]

Wish I could help you more, but it has been the same battle for me.  I have been calling and talking to every P&C agent and carrier I know of.  Once it comes down to 1. Its no longer a hobby, or 2. its mobile, they can't help you.  The only way they can write it is if they have your home and property, and include it under an umbrella.   
I have talked with several carriers about a group or association plan.  The answer is always "maybe", after we show how the numbers add up.  You have to have enough large nunbers to offset the potential risk. 
I think going back to the manufacturers with this, and getting their support would be a big help.  It takes money and a bigger voice to get companies to listen.  If no owe can insure, then no one can operate, then no one can buy more mills.  Its in their best interest to help out. 
Just to clarify, I dont sell P&C insurance.  I am in the other lines of insurance business.  I have just been trying to help out and find some carriers to work with mill owners.

[solodan]

If you live in an area where logging, timber production and lumber processing are a major industry, than there surley must be a broker that sells logging and timber operations insurance. A sawmill is considered timber operations. Even road building can be considered timber operations. I would have never found my insurance company myself, but my broker knows of lots of these companies that insure companies involved with timber operations. Premiums are not the same for everyone. There are lots of variables based on these figures. If you have no workers other than family, your premiums may be less than if you had a hired full time employee. If your major   business is  skidding logs, than you may pay less than an urban tree climber/faller. Bottom line is you can have insurance and still be sued for everything you have. If you are insured and non-neglegent you may have a running chance in a lawsuit. Maybe buying insurance is really just buying a piece of mind. It definately would not hurt to ask the larger mills who they use, you may get somewhere, cause the really really big guys are usually self insured anyway,  why would a company worth billions buy coverage for a couple million.

[Kelvin]

Well i've had some luck, and its as i suspected.  Turns out its just how much the agents want to work on it.  I have a quote now from Auto Owners and Hastings, two companies that do contracting insurance.  Its funny as they come from two different agents, and each agent said the other wouldn't be able to cover me, but that they had figured out a way.  These were the two agents who wanted my business out of the 30 i called.  So just keep calling and asking.  Someone will make it work.  Quotes are about $1500 for what they call "1 million, 2 million" in liability, $50k on barn, $19k in "inland marine" which is for theft and fire for sawmill and tractor.  I can work off premises, and sell stuff at my business.

I had an agent explain what amount of coverage you should get this way.  Basically if someone is hurt by you or on your property, their insurance is going to sue you no matter if they are your best friend.  The insurance company decides and there is nothing you can do about it but decide to pay all the medical bills yourself.  Now they take a look at your net worth, and your insurance policy and pick between the two.  If they take all your stuff (house and cars, and no, a corporation doesn't protect you automatically.  Depends on how you use it) and get more money, thats what they will do.  If your policy is worth more, they take that.  Pretty simple.  Seems like it makes sense in a time when lawyers are running the country. (well i guess that most of the founding fathers were lawyers so i suppose thats the way it works)

On the corp thing, if you use the corp account like a personal account, they will treat it as no different then a buisness you own outright.  You must keep all the corp money carefully seperate, pay with company checks, pay taxes and everything to make sure the corporate sheild protects your house and personal assets.  I bet people would be surprised, like me, that a company doesn't mean squat until its perfect on paper.

I can't believe its a relief to pay $1500 plus $700 on my business truck, $2200 for insurance, but now my bank won't be able to stick me with their "special" insurance as my home owners got canceled and its their house.  I just live here
Whew!!!
KP

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Dowh here, safety is of little concern. Guys get legs caught between logs, and jump around stuff.

  First thing I tell them is, there is no hospital close.  IF you break a leg, you are igual (equal) to a caballo (Horse).  I just need a Pistola (Pistol) un Pala (Shovel) and a waco( hole). They look at me a little quizical, then start to smile. I keep a stern look on my face, and they realize I am serious.    THAT gets all KINDS of looks from them. 

[solodan]

 

[Dan_Shade]

what happens when you get stuck under a log, Harold?!!!!???

[Fla._Deadheader]

  That don't happen. I knows when ta move. 

[bull]

Kelvin it looks like you need to get involved in farm bureau !!! Get on the county board of directors and go to the annual meeting !!! pass resolutions to make farm bureau insurance all inclusive. If your a farm bureau member you have a say and there are many others here on the forum who could also get involved, farm bureau is grass roots and starts at home, get on the bus and be the driver.... You will get the insurance you need if you are the voice that is heard.....
Farm Bureau (state) annual meetings are be held now or in the near future.....
also the AFBF annual is in Louisanna this year......

[cantcutter]

Okay...so I have been doing some looking and this is what I have found....nothing....
I called KY Farm Bereau and they don't cover sawmills of any kind. I saw a post on here where somebody said they had their insurance through KYFB and they said they better check that policy because they don't cover mills portable or not, farm realted or not. They did find a company to underwrite it through and the premium for just 13,000 replacement coverage was 800 per year, paid up front and no refund if policy was canceled early, plus 1000.00 deductable...  No liability what so ever and if it was stolen while not on my property no coverage either. I did not like those terms so I am still looking.

My car policy does cover trailers in tow, but not equipment and a sawmill is equipment, not a trailer.... oh well...so that is out.

So I am still looking....guess I have to go back through this thread and start calling some of these other companies that are listed. I did try the contractor insurance route and the one place never called me back.... the second said they would look into it and I have yet to hear back from them as well.

[Kelvin]

Yeah, this is terrible.  Actually both agents are using places that won't insure sawmills.  You just have to get them to understand its not a sawmill "operation"  I've pleaded my case with about 30 people for about 3 weeks now.  They have to word it right to the underwriters.  Just keep calling and saying.  This thing is just a bandsaw on a track.  Your average table saw is more dangerous.  Get someone to look at it.  Your only hope is to get contractors insurance for liablity.  The only other way is pen. lumbermans and their least expensive policy is $2500, and that would only cover the mill, not anything else you might do with lumber. 

Very frustrating and hard to figure out.  I'm going to go insane.  I was told today that stacks of lumber in my yard are a fire hazard.  I asked if it was because they thought they might spontaneously combust?  And so what if they burn?  They are two football feilds from any building, and they aren't insured anyways.  Oh, and my barn made out of wood?  They said that b/c i store wood inside it, it would be more likely to be a total loss if any fire started there.  I said, we have a volunteer firedepartment we call "foundation savers" b/c they haven't lost a foundation to a fire yet.  If that or any barn starts on fire its a total loss anyhow.  Its wood, and the wood inside isn't insured anyhow so who cares?  Aughh.  THe list goes on and on.  I was declined b/c i had a "debarker"  Which the underwriter, who you can't talk with, knew was very dangerous as they strip the whole log clean of bark, so they won't insure me.  Uhhh.... i don't have that, i have a debarker on my woodmizer, or mudsaw.  But, oh well.  THey decided.  I'm worried about the general intelligence of mankind now.

Good luck everyone.  I still don't have anything.  The last people who offered it to me, rescinded there offer cause they finally saw my website.
KP

[cantcutter]

I am not looking for liability even.... I just don't want the mill to be stolen, burn or rearended while in tow and have me be left holding the bag.

[Don_Papenburg]

How many of you have had an ins. claim on your saw mills ever?  I was thinking that youy could put 2000 dollars in a high yeild bond fund every year and watch your money grow . As apposed to fly away into the ins.mans wallet never to be seen again.   It will take some time before you will be able to make a big payout but I think that if you use due care you will never need the ins. or a payout from your own account.

[solodan]

Kelvin, ask about a loggers broad form policy. I have to have it because the state of California requires me to hold a $1million liability policy for my Timber Operators License. This covers anything that may happen during timber operations including running a sawmill or a portable sawmill. It is probably important to be covered when picking up free logs from someones property. I think my premium runs me right around $1500 a year. Like I said before there are lots of variables. Call an insurance broker that works with lots of companies, and call one that only does comercial policies. Insuring a sawmill for theft or fire is totaly seperate.  Good luck.

[Quinn]

I have a million dollars of liability insurance through "Forest Insurance Center Agency & Mauck Insurance Agency".  They were the only ones I could find in Michigan to offer a policy like this for my band sawmill.  They were very easy to deal with, and it was only a couple hundred bucks or so (I can't remember the exact price).  I believe they operate in Michigan and Wisconsin. 
Their website is:
http://www.forestinsurancecenter.com

I hope this is of some help.

Quinn

[ladylake]

I have a million dollars of liability insurance through "Forest Insurance Center Agency & Mauck Insurance Agency".  They were the only ones I could find in Michigan to offer a policy like this for my band sawmill.  They were very easy to deal with, and it was only a couple hundred bucks or so (I can't remember the exact price).  I believe they operate in Michigan and Wisconsin. 
Their website is:
http://www.forestinsurancecenter.com

I hope this is of some help.
Quinn  I just looked at thier website, looks like Mn is included also. If it's any where near a couple a hundred or 5 or 7 hundred  Thanks  Steve

Quinn

[BBTom]

Anyone in Ohio that is looking for insurance can check out Hummel Insurance http://www.hummelgrp.com/hummel/lumber.html

[DR_Buck]

If you just want to insure the mil and no liability, B.G. Balmer in PA will do it. rate is based on mill value.   $25,000 mill will cost around $600 a year.

I already mentioned earlier in this post that full coverage including equipment and liability can be had through Scottsdale Insurance Company out of Columbus OH.   Don't know what states they offer coverage in, but I know VA is one of them.   Costs me <$1500 a year for coverage on the mill and log trailer/loader  and $2,000,000 liability.

[SawDust_Studios]

Kelvin, not sure if they do business in Mich, but you can give them a try. Penn. Lumbermans Mutual. Phone # 215-625-9233 Lester

I'm glad you guys have luck with PA Lumbermans  I just dropped them, they raised my rates $500/year each year for the past 3 years due soley to the mill.  The was for the woodworking business and sawmill business. I was at over 4k for everything and I had not claims nor accidents.

I moved my coverage to erie insurance, also from PA.  I got it from Lake Insurance in McConnellsburg, PA www.lakeinsurance.com and save over 1k on my coverage. I agreed to keep the mill stationary, which can save some big $$$  Not an option for some, but works for me.

[SawDust_Studios]

Thanks for the all the posts with insurance links.  I'll try them to see if anyone has something for people who are small.  I'll post here if i find anything.  Its weird how one company, say farm bureau, will cover some people in some states and not others.  Wouldn't the same company have the same policy everywhere?  The one post here said farm bureau charges them $800 for coverage on site and mobile.  This seems close to reasonable.  Why wouldn't all farm bureau agents have the same info?  Guess its up to individuals at some point.  We'll get this figured out and i think there is going to be some good buisness for someone who wakes up to the idea as others have pointed out, there are probably a lot of us little guys around.  I think most of us are operating without insurance as we haven't informed our agents, so if something happened it would be not covered. 
KP

The second you take a mill and make a single dollar, you fall under commercial in nearly all companies eyes.  $800 seems rather cheap in those terms, I would really question what they cover. My agent actually said the liability aspect of the insurance for me was rather cheap for my 1million policy.  Of course, insurance companies always seem to find a way to get our of a claim if need be.  For the wood side, my spraying lacquer, taking the mill offsite, wooddust in a shop with electrical outlets, fire, etc are all the risks for loss.  These drive up rates.

[Quinn]

Ladylake,

I dug out my receipt, and the cost for $1 million in liability was more like $500.  Sorry for the earlier low guess.

Quinn

[Greg]

Wouldn't woodmizer or the other portable sawmill manufactures have something useful to add to this conversation?

Greg

[logwalker]

I would think they would be avoiding it like the plague. It may be the dirty little secret of mill manufacturers. They need to get on board and find a solution. It can get worse before it gets better. Joe

[ADAMINMO]

I have heard from many sawmill owners that insurance is very hard to find for their sawmill.I have looked a few times to try to help answer this question but to no avail.
I was in a coworkers office the other day and saw this on his desk.

B.G. Balmer & Company
Eric Hample  888-885-6371 or 610-647-8880
Fax # 610-251-9368
www.bgbalmer.com

They are out of West Chester,Pa

Hope this helps you guys looking for insurance.
Adam

[Kelvin]

Thanks for all those who have posted info on places and amounts that they are paying.  Its seems in my case i found an agent willing to tell me what to do to get insurance.  I got some, (they haven't inspected me yet!) for merely $1700 + $700 for my dump truck.  I guess the big secret is to be a woodworker, cabinet maker, installer who does trim and flooring.  All these things i do, and the mill is covered but it is explained as being used for making lumber for my business with some side sales of lumber and mill work.  This is fairly accurate, but downplayed the custom cutting (which i really don't do hardly any of and mostly keep my mill at home, some folks drop off logs for sawing in trade)  This seems reasonable and makes everyone happier.  I have had a couple of offers to insure now that i changed my website page and changed my descriptions of how i operate.  I always told them, i don't know what i can get insurance to do, but here is what i have been doing and making about $8k-$10k a year.  (This would amount to most people's hobbies)  But they would all turn me down without any help. 
I signed the paperwork within hours of my bank kicking in default insurance to cover my house as i was dropped and couldint get anyone to help.  This cost $2,400 a year just for fire, no contents!  I now pay $420 a year on my house.
So, all in all i was very happy to write a check for $2,400 so i can keep working at $6 an hour selling wood.  We'll see how this inspection goes.  They said they want to come to one of my jobsites and watch me install wood i've made!  Hmmmm....  has this happened to any of you guys?
Just thought i would pass along this info.
Kelvin

[DR_Buck]

B.G. Balmer & Company
Eric Hample  888-885-6371 or 610-647-8880
Fax # 610-251-9368
www.bgbalmer.com

They are out of West Chester,Pa

Sawmill insurance for the mill only.  They do not offer liability.

[blueduck]

Years ago when we needed insurance on a logging job and no one would underwrite locally, we ended up with a company who in turn went to Lloyds of London, at an affordable rate even.....

so if you talk to an underwrite who is hesitant, ask them if they have looked into http://www.lloyds.com/ that they might help you and others in the area.....

Currently i dont have insurance for the mill side of the operation, and is the primary reason i quit being a contractor in Idaho, I dont believe in limited liability as way of life and in accordance with Almighty God i believe i am in good standing....... from what i read in the Historical political record book most folks know as the Holy Bible anyway.

If I end up with financing then i have to accept man's way of living over what Almighty God tells us to do and that means geting isurance again to cover losses and prevent idiots from trying to take advantage of an operation..... and if i hire an employee then i have to cover them too..... mostly cause it is a law that the insurance agents got passed to be able not to produce anything in life.... just sit there and take in funds and go to conventions once a year.... [guess my opinion of some folks is not what they themselves think and may be slightly skewed] <---- i suppose not all agents are like that...... cause i know not all sawmillers take advantage of folks.

William
Central Idaho republik

[malcolmtent]

Kelvin, not sure if they do business in Mich, but you can give them a try. Penn. Lumbermans Mutual. Phone # 215-625-9233 Lester

FYI: Penn Lumbermens doesn't write for portable mills.

[kevin jones]

i know this is an old thread but for anyone out there searching though the history books like myself, i have full coverage through Westfield Ins Co.  actually we have the house, property, buildings, personal vehicles, then my entire tree trimming business, sawmill. business equipment through them.  with the business i have a million $ umbrella which includes my portable mill.  they never asked any questions other how much is it worth.  for the tree trimming part, they asked if i had any experience, everything was verbal, no documentation.  i am in south west ohio.  cutting down 48" dia tree's that are next to a persons house holds way more liability than my sawmill, and they cover both

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum kevin jones.   

[taw6243]

My general liability is with Acquity Insurance Company from Klinner Insurance in Wisconsin. Their number is 1-800-934-5647. The customer service agent is Barb Jacobson. I got refered to them by Woodmizer when I could not find any insurer in Michigan. It costs 250.00 Per year for $1,000,000.00 of coverage per occurance.

[ladylake]

 Same astaw6243 here in MN + I carry $10000 worth on the mill for another $250, I know that wont replace the mill new but would help on a low hour used one.  Sure makes me feel better with liabilty insurance which covers at home and on the road.  Steve

[kevin jones]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum kevin jones.   

Thank you Magicman