Author Topic: I cannot figure out this hickory (Read 2285 times)

Lanier_Lurker · « **on:** October 19, 2007, 11:30:56 pm »

With Lake Lanier in the pitiful condition it is in this is a wonderful time to walk around the edge of the exposed lake bed, look at trees and stuff, and generally goof off.

I came upon a huge pile of hickory nuts that had dropped off a rather large hickory tree with a crown that veered out over the exposed lake bed. The nuts were fairly small, and they were escaping their husks with little problem since I was finding husk-free nuts everywhere. Their small size made me think they were pignut, but the fairly thick and easily escapable husk made me think mockernut. I know I may have to go back and get some pictures of the bark and leaves, but I'll go ahead and start this identification thread anyway. Here is a picture of the nuts.

beenthere · « **Reply #1 on:** October 20, 2007, 01:21:20 am »

Looks the size of our shagbark hickory. Pic of the bark?

Brian Beauchamp · « **Reply #2 on:** October 20, 2007, 02:31:19 pm »

I agree...either shagbark or shellbark hickory.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #3 on:** October 20, 2007, 03:27:58 pm »

red hickory Carya ovalis

Brian Beauchamp · « **Reply #4 on:** October 20, 2007, 04:04:34 pm »

...didn't even notice that quarter in the pic,

...shows how observant I am sometimes...way too small for either I had mentioned before.

WDH · « **Reply #5 on:** October 20, 2007, 07:34:13 pm »

It is not pignut. I am betting it is mockernut. However, it could be southern shagbark hickory, Carya ovata var. australis. However, the shaggy bark would be distinctive and diagnostic, and I bet you would have noticed that.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** October 20, 2007, 07:47:46 pm »

Looks oval to me, ovalis

WDH · « **Reply #7 on:** October 20, 2007, 07:56:12 pm »

The husk looks a little too thick I think, SD. The dehiscence looks to be too good for ovalis.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** October 20, 2007, 08:52:15 pm »

LeeB · « **Reply #9 on:** October 20, 2007, 09:48:29 pm »

When you tree smart folks get it figured out somebody please post som pics so can positively identify at least one of the many different hickories on my place.

WDH · « **Reply #10 on:** October 20, 2007, 10:10:09 pm »

LeeB,

Post us some pics.

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2007, 10:12:14 pm »

Looks like our shagbark up here.

Dave

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #12 on:** October 20, 2007, 11:13:20 pm »

Would ovalis have husk thickness and dehiscence characteristics that are similar to glabra? If so then that would seem to rule out ovalis (although I would love to find one around here).

I glanced at the tree, and the bark is definitely not that of a shagbark.

I'll wander back down there and try to get some pictures of the tree.

WDH · « **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2007, 11:20:58 pm »

Today, many dendrologists consider red hickory (Carya ovalis) to be a variety of pignut (Carya glabra). Some manuals refer to red hickory as Carya glabra var. ovalis. The husk thickness and dehiscence characteristics of the two are more similar than different since they are essentially the same species. The bark of pignut is very tight and the bark of red hickory is more scaly, but nothing like the big loose scales of shagbark or shellbark. Red hickory is, however, decidedly scaly, but the scales are much smaller than shagbark.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #14 on:** October 21, 2007, 06:14:31 am »

Ditto to what WDH said, there are also a couple other latin names floating around.

C ovalis var. ordata

C leiodermis

C pallida

The last two are distinct from the first, but pignuts as well.

LeeB · « **Reply #15 on:** October 21, 2007, 10:03:48 am »

WDH, ok teacher, give me some homework.

I was thinking as I opened this thread about my post last night and that I should be the one taking the pictures. i don't know how much good they will be right now as the leaves have started to turn and are falling off. We basicly had no nuts this year due to a late freeze. I,ll have to wait till next year to match nuts to tree.

WDH · « **Reply #16 on:** October 21, 2007, 11:33:05 am »

Bark pics are very good in IDing hickory. Also, the number of leaflets and if the leaf stem is hairy or smooth. If you take pics, look for the number of leaflets and the leaf stem (rachis) condition. Nuts are a big plus, but not critical. The stoutness of the branches near the tip is another important feature.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #17 on:** October 21, 2007, 11:18:37 pm »

Ok, I'll start with some bark pictures.

The leaf pictures I was able to get are maddeningly inconclusive. There are 5 and 7 leaflet leaves - and I cannot tell which occurs more frequently.

Also, I think I may need better bark pictures. Now that I have figured out some of the features on my camera I feel like I can get better pictures. But, I'll give these a try. WDH may spot something that is conclusive.

WDH · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2007, 11:44:30 pm »

That bark is mighty tight, mighty mockernutish

. Doesn't look much like red hickory, Carya ovalis or Carya glabra var. ovalis whatever flavor you like.

limbrat · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2007, 11:47:42 pm »

So the nuts are small but there is a lot of them. Could the tree have been stressed and decided to put out as much seed as could?

WDH · « **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2007, 11:49:16 pm »

Good point. That could very well be the case.

BrandonTN · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2007, 09:38:09 am »

Lets see some stems on the branches.

IL Bull · « **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2007, 03:07:51 pm »

Looks like a mocker nut. Have tried eating them. Shag bark and mocker nut are both sweet enough to eat. The rest of the hickories are bitter.

WDH · « **Reply #23 on:** October 22, 2007, 07:23:01 pm »

I have too, IL Bull. Mockernut and shagbark. Tastes different than a walnut or a pecan. Hard to get the meat out of the shells, though

.

LeeB · « **Reply #24 on:** October 22, 2007, 08:23:55 pm »

Well, I was a gonna take some pictures today but the rain kinda dampened my enthusiasm a little. Maybe tommorow.

woodbeard · « **Reply #25 on:** November 11, 2007, 11:50:56 am »

So, how would one distinguish bitternut hickory from mockernut based on the bark?

WDH · « **Reply #26 on:** November 11, 2007, 05:00:00 pm »

From my experience, the bitternut bark has diamond shaped ridges like mockernut. However, mockernut ridges will generally be heavier looking, thicker, protrude more, and have a more robust look. In many of the bitternut that I have seen, the diamond shaped ridges are there, but they are thin, looking like they have been laid with glue using cardboard. It looks almost smooth, but you can see the ridges and the patterns they make, much more subtle than mockernut.

The buds are very different. Bitternut buds are very graceful and sulfur yellow. They are very distinctive, one of a kind. A little fuzzy. They are shaped more like a duckbill (valvate) with two sides that come together. The mockernut bud is big and fat (big as the end of your little finger). Bud scales are shiny, not fuzzy, overlap (imbricate), and are very brown.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #27 on:** November 11, 2007, 06:03:37 pm »

All this diamond ridge talk, reminds me of butternut and white ash.

WDH · « **Reply #28 on:** November 11, 2007, 09:34:15 pm »

Me too...........

woodbeard · « **Reply #29 on:** November 12, 2007, 07:17:59 am »

Ah, so bitternut is the one I tend to confuse with ash at first glance.
The butternut around here is much different looking. It does have a diamondish configuration to the bark, but spread out much more than black walnut or ash, with many wide, flat areas.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #30 on:** November 12, 2007, 07:34:26 am »

I only brought it up because of the diamond patterns.

Do you saw much butternut woodbeard? or white ash? I like both and need to source some more local butternut for projects down the road (time-wise). On the farm we sold we had quite a few butternut, even growing out on the hardwood ridge and mostly along our streams. Not used to seeing it to far from the river. A couple weeks ago I saw some nice ones up by a cell phone tower, growing on an abandoned farm field. It was abandoned a long time because the softwood and poplar was 12-20 inch at breast height. In a good market trend, those are money trees, with the current markets....I'd rather the worms ate them.

Greg · « **Reply #31 on:** November 12, 2007, 10:23:18 am »

Any hickory with tight bark like that I've always just called "pignut".

Haven't heard of mockernut, in these parts anyways

Greg

woodbeard · « **Reply #32 on:** November 12, 2007, 04:51:55 pm »

Quote

Do you saw much butternut woodbeard?

Whenever I can. It's getting wiped out around here by something. Whenever logs of it turn up at the local log yard, they are usually kinda rough, and sell as #3 mixed hardwoods at $180/mbf, so I snatch up whatever I can.

WDH · « **Reply #33 on:** November 12, 2007, 05:09:21 pm »

Quote from: Greg on November 12, 2007, 10:23:18 am

Any hickory with tight bark like that I've always just called "pignut".

Haven't heard of mockernut, in these parts anyways
Greg

Google Carya tomemtosa

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #34 on:** November 12, 2007, 06:12:33 pm »

I always considered the forests of Ohio about the most genetically diverse area in terms of hardwood species in the eastern US. It's also on the edge for ranges of many species of the far north or the south.

SPIKER · « **Reply #35 on:** November 24, 2007, 01:37:25 pm »

here is a pic of pig nut showing the diamond paterns it is ~ 20" dbh

this tree's nuts are very thin skinned with a raised edge on the husk sections. no pics of these nuts maybe tomarrow I'll take camera & get some shots of the nuts on the hickerys

mark m

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #36 on:** December 01, 2007, 09:07:03 pm »

Looking at the nut it is a Mockernut Hickory and the bark confirms that. In hickorys I have noted that thick husk nuts taste better (Shagbark, Shellbark and Mockernut) and thin husk like Pignut, Nutmeg and Black.
LeeB you will mostly have mockernut in your area unless the bark looks like a white oak then it is a shagbark.

LeeB · « **Reply #37 on:** December 02, 2007, 04:02:23 am »

Thanks Arky. You know, the invite to come by is still open, along with the offer to throw some steaks on the grill.

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Author Topic: I cannot figure out this hickory (Read 2285 times)