Author Topic: Private Forest Landowners... (Read 2378 times)

BlaBla · « **on:** September 14, 2007, 05:27:53 pm »

I'm trying to do research on why private forest landowners do what they do with their land and how that changes throughout the country. I'm trying to find lists of these people, but it's not that easy. Most states and counties don't maintain this kind of information. Any ideas on what states and/or counties might do this? I'm only looking for county-sized samples, but whole states would provide more flexibility.

beenthere · « **Reply #1 on:** September 14, 2007, 05:51:49 pm »

Trying to comprehend what you are asking, but don't think you will find "lists of these people" (whatever that might mean).

You may contact the Tree Farm Association, or the Woodland Owners Association (via internet) and read some of their articles addressing 'what' (and maybe why) landowners do with their private forests (usually very little in general). Also, the Society of American Foresters address the topic and would be another source of info. Each of these groups have regular publications and printed stories about private landowner holdings of timber in their forests.

Tom · « **Reply #2 on:** September 14, 2007, 06:34:46 pm »

The reason that private landowners have such a bad reputation is because of the idea that they "don't do very much". It's an idea promulgated by the large landowners (they see the small landowner as taking their resources), Consulting Foresters (most, it seems, haven't the time to devote to small landowners and consider them a drain on their time), and many loggers (who would rather move equipment one time and stay on the job forever). The mills have gone to full tree processing which has cut the small operator out of much of the action. The small operator was the life blood of the small landowner. Rules and regulations developed at the mill to protect against log theft have stopped the landowner from marketing his own logs. So, the observations of many are that the small landowner does nothing. That loss of market power and the opinion that small tree farmers are second class citizens, opens these lands to development, which makes it look like the small landowner had that on his mind all along. It isn't necessarily true.

You will probably have trouble getting individual names and properties. The Stewardship Plan is a Federal program that might help you. Your best bet is going to be to go through the USDA and/or each State's Division of Forestry. Personal knowledge will probably only come from One on One interviews with small landowners. Most of these are now paranoid about talking with people because of the problems they have had with tax authorities and environmental wacko groups. Tree Farming isn't an industry that has much support from any faction.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #3 on:** September 14, 2007, 07:05:20 pm »

If you're just looking for names, then you could pull them from the county tax assessments. Some of those are on the Internet. But, that will take a ton of time.

I'm not certain as to what you are trying to research. Usually, landowners do what they do based on economics and ideals. If the idea is that trees aren't worth much, then the landowner will cut them down as soon as someone is willing to log them off. Conversely, if the landowner thinks they're worth a ton of money, he will never be able to find a marketplace, and perpetuates the thoughts that all loggers are crooks. Both actions are based on faulty economics, but have different outcomes.

Some landowners work from a biology aspect. Some do tree thinnings by taking out the worst, and keeping the best. Others may do harvesting to open up feed plots for wildlife. Both are working from a biology aspect, and are applying different management schemes but to different ends.

I think you'll end up with a long list. Landowners do things for a variety of reasons, and they're as diverse as the number of landowners.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #4 on:** October 20, 2007, 06:33:20 pm »

Since we have a marketing board system in New Brunswick, there have been numerous surveys with questions and compiled responses just like what your seeking. There is a thread deep in this forum someplace I wrote up on the subject with some exerpts from various reports. I'll dig a little, it may or may not be of interest.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #5 on:** October 20, 2007, 06:37:39 pm »

Here is that post embedded in another thread.

Forest Certification-Woodlot Owner Surveys for NB

Brian Beauchamp · « **Reply #6 on:** October 20, 2007, 10:52:31 pm »

Quote from: Tom on September 14, 2007, 06:34:46 pm

The reason that private landowners have such a bad reputation is because of the idea that they "don't do very much". It's an idea promulgated by the large landowners (they see the small landowner as taking their resources), Consulting Foresters (most, it seems, haven't the time to devote to small landowners and consider them a drain on their time), and many loggers (who would rather move equipment one time and stay on the job forever). The mills have gone to full tree processing which has cut the small operator out of much of the action. The small operator was the life blood of the small landowner. Rules and regulations developed at the mill to protect against log theft have stopped the landowner from marketing his own logs. So, the observations of many are that the small landowner does nothing. That loss of market power and the opinion that small tree farmers are second class citizens, opens these lands to development, which makes it look like the small landowner had that on his mind all along. It isn't necessarily true.

You will probably have trouble getting individual names and properties. The Stewardship Plan is a Federal program that might help you. Your best bet is going to be to go through the USDA and/or each State's Division of Forestry. Personal knowledge will probably only come from One on One interviews with small landowners. Most of these are now paranoid about talking with people because of the problems they have had with tax authorities and environmental wacko groups. Tree Farming isn't an industry that has much support from any faction.

Well said, Tom.

WDH · « **Reply #7 on:** October 20, 2007, 10:56:31 pm »

BlaBla,

Is this a school project or thesis?

Deadwood · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2007, 04:34:12 am »

Here in Maine a good majority of the smaller landowners make up a huge portion of the woodland. There are plots up north by the big papermills, but in the lower part of the state, its the landowners like me with 300-400 acres that are the norm.

20 years ago people like me cut their own woodlots with their own tractors and stuff. You would not believe how much the sawlog and pulp market was influenced by landowners doing their own logging this time of year. Property taxes come due this time of year for most towns, and of ourse extra cash for Christmas too.

Now I think it is a time thing. Everyone is too busy to do that and get professional loggers to come in and log the land. There is still incentives out there for private landowners to log, like you don't have to be a certified logger to haul wood to a mill IF that wood was cut by the landowner. If you cut your own woodlot you don't need to notify the State Forest Service of the harvest either.

Unfortunately I don't think you are going to get a good census of why landowners do what they do via a list. Maine has SWOAM (small woodlot owners of Maine) but anyone who belongs to that is going to be well versed in forestry, really care about their land and throw the curve so to speak.

20 years or so and before, landowners would keep their woodlots unharvested for years, paying the taxes every year then just before retirement flatten it for the cash. Now that landowners are cash starved, I noticed they cut their woodlots a lot more often. I have counted 3-4 harvests in my lifetime on some land around here, and they were not good thinning harvests either. The wood they harvest is all under a foot in diameter, but the wood is big enough for pulp. The key word being big enough. I kind of like it though in a way...it makes the wood that comes off my land look really big!!

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2007, 06:26:03 am »

My uncle said about the downturn of the industry: 'Now maybe the woodlots will have a chance to grow".

It was hard to do a selection for a profit around here before the down swing, now it's impossible unless it's your land and you do it part time with low equipment costs on weekends. Or the spouse is the bread winner. I observe it many times and i know the family situation in most cases.

Deadwood · « **Reply #10 on:** October 21, 2007, 07:36:09 am »

I hear you Swamp Donkey,

My neighbor clearcut 200 acres back in the early 80's. Took 3 skidders 4 years to log every living tree off the place. I mean it was a true clearcut. You could not believe my shock when he told me he was logging it again last year. I try to be polite but I was like "what are they going to cut?"

There was a little firewood in there, and some spruce and fir that were just big enough to harvest. Fence post sized.

I gleaned two things out of this. One. Landowners are no longer allowing their wood to grow before cutting it. Two. There are loggers out there that are willing to cut ANY woodlot, no matter how lousy the wood.

routestep · « **Reply #11 on:** November 18, 2007, 06:15:44 pm »

Blabla, the University of Maine is currently conducting a survey on private land owners in Penobscot County, Maine. Call up the School of Forest Resources MS Candidate - Gretchen Heldmann at 207 581-2897 to discuss her survey. It's pretty detailed.

WDH · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2007, 12:23:44 am »

We seem to have lost Blabla

.

Phorester · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2007, 10:02:34 pm »

Yep, dissappeared. There's around 470,000 forestland owners in Virginia. That'd be quite a list. Also, quite a lot of information already out there on what private forestland owners do and don't do. Maybe he found it and didn't need to come back here.

BlaBla · « **Reply #14 on:** March 01, 2008, 08:25:09 pm »

oops...I promise you didn't lose me forever. I haven't been back much since the now infamous crash. I just wanted to stop back in and say thanks for the input--just discovered a few new posts today, 4 months later...the forestry forum puts out a lot of perspective out there that is not emphasized in academia.

Originally, I was looking for compiled, complete lists of forest landowners to survey and interview for a research proposal for an undergraduate thesis project. Now, it appears that I'll have to go through tax records (hopefully GIS will make it quite a bit easier) to get this list. I'll be conducting this in the 11-county southernmost region of Illinois. The project will focus on the relationship between national forest land and private forest landowners and other demographic, environmental, and economic factors. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. This definitely helps as I put interview protocols and the survey together.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #15 on:** March 01, 2008, 08:55:33 pm »

It would be interesting to compare to the many surveys done here in NB over the years. I would think the results are quite similar. I think you'll find the responses of those more involved and dependent on the industry a bit different from those that own land for the sake of owning it and again a little different from those that have nostalgia about the days when they were young with dad and grandpa cutting firewood or making syrup and have now got a day job at the fabrication plant.

woodtroll · « **Reply #16 on:** March 02, 2008, 01:13:51 am »

Originally, I was looking for compiled, complete lists of forest landowners to survey and interview for a research proposal for an undergraduate thesis project. Now, it appears that I'll have to go through tax records (hopefully GIS will make it quite a bit easier) to get this list. I'll be conducting this in the 11-county southernmost region of Illinois. The project will focus on the relationship between national forest land and private forest landowners and other demographic, environmental, and economic factors. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. This definitely helps as I put interview protocols and the survey together.

You are talking a large number of forest owners. With many different objectives. Not to mention a National Forest that does not sell/harvest a stick of commercial lumber.
The main reason most become interested in forest management is to keep their property taxes low. I would be interested in seeing your results.

ID4ster · « **Reply #17 on:** March 02, 2008, 01:53:51 am »

Why not go the the various state forest owners associations and ask them if they could put you in contact with some of their members? There are plenty of state associations out there. New York Forest Owners Assoc., Idaho Forest Owners Assoc.. New Hampshire Woodlot Owners, etc. Look it up on the internet and you should find a list of the various state organizations that you can tap into. Looking in the tax records will take forever unless what you want is a sample of all forest owners not just those interested or committed enough to be in a state association. If a random sample of all owners is what you want then you'll need to look at the tax records and another semester or two to complete your project.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #18 on:** March 02, 2008, 07:06:51 am »

You might not get your list of names and addresses from the associations. I know we never gave out that info at our Marketing Boards/Wood Producers Association unless the Federation of woodlot owners was collaborating on a survey with the University or Government. But, in later years (since 1998), all you needed was an account with Service NB to get access to the assessment and ownership records. Each parcel is even categorized as farmland, woodland etc.....The marketing boards all have that info as well on their GIS systems that they get from the government as part of the private land silviculture program. But you can pull it off the web at your own home for $10/mo for 10 hours account.

Phorester · « **Reply #19 on:** March 02, 2008, 08:35:14 am »

You might also try the American Tree Farm System for another perspective of private forestland ownership. http://www.treefarmsystem.org Contacting your State Tree Farm Committee might give you an avenue for lists of landowners who actively manage their forestlands (otherwise they wouldn't be in the Tree Farm system) This would be the contrast between owners who practice forestry and ones who don't.

From their home page:

"The term "tree farming" was first used in the 1940's to introduce the public to sustainable forestry terminology they could easily understand. Farming implies continual stewardship and production of goods year after year. By linking the term "farming" with trees, foresters could communicate the concept of sustainable production of forest products over time. Tree Farming implies commitment to the land and was the philosophical opposite of the "cut-out and get-out" philosophy of the early 20th century.
Tree Farms are more than pine plantations or Christmas tree farms. Tree Farms are varied in nature and contain many different habitats and stages of forest regeneration, from seedlings to mature timber. Biodiversity is a critical component of a certified Tree Farm. Tree Farmers must maintain natural forest buffers and other aspects of conservation techniques.

ATFS was established in response to concerns that America's private forests were being cut at unsustainable rates without reforestation. It all began in 1941 when the first Tree Farm was designated in Washington State. The Tree Farm's purpose was to demonstrate sound forest management practices to area landowners. California's Tree Farm program started later in 1941 and has grown to include nearly 600 Tree Farms covering 3.5 million acres of the state."

Another comment; in Virginia some counties have a lot of land ownership information online, some have a little bit, some have absolutely nothing. You have to go to the county courthouse and physically search their real estate tax information. I suspect it's the same in Illinois.

ibseeker · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2008, 01:29:47 pm »

It would be interesting to participate in a survey like this. I used to think of myself as a small woodlot owner but after deadwood's comments about his 300-400 acres as a small woodlot, I just got downsized to a "micro" woodlot owner!

Now, I might have misread deadwood's comment but that's neither here nor there.
What qualifies as a small woodlot? In order to qualify for the greenbelt program there is a 15 acre minimum and it has to stay as a forest.

Tom and Ron's comments were right on target. I moved ahead with logging my property without the support of a Consulting Forester. Everything that I heard led me to my decision to remove the Virginia Pine....was it right? It wasn't for money. Heck, I was paid $4400. Not enough to influence my decision. I just thought it was the right thing to do before the pine beetle came back and I lost all of that pine. I got input from a variety of sources so that I felt like it wasn't biased and about a logger making money from me...Ralph didn't get rich logging my 20 acres that's for sure. I'd just like to see the results of this survey to get better ideas of what I might do. Right now, I'm kind of stuck. What to do next?

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #21 on:** March 02, 2008, 01:48:48 pm »

Yeah you just struck a cord. How large of a parcel of woodland do you need to be called a small woodlot owner? Historically, it has been 25 acres in my area and more recently it is 12 acres because of silviculture programs. A 10 acre lot or less around here is considered a building lot now and is taxed as such. I know one old timer with a couple of small parcels he acquired along road frontage and it wasn't intended for building lots. One is wooded and another is a 10 acre field. Kinda of forces your hand, to sell it off as building lots when your tax goes from $10 to $450 a year.

The zoning or taxation changed back in 1998. I guess they needed a way to drum up revenue to write a non standard GIS and maintain the records in it.

Brian Beauchamp · « **Reply #22 on:** March 02, 2008, 10:02:56 pm »

Quote from: Deadwood on October 21, 2007, 07:36:09 am

Two. There are loggers out there that are willing to cut ANY woodlot, no matter how lousy the wood.

Hey...send some of them my way...I have plenty of lousy trees to get rid of...and some good ones too!

News:

Author Topic: Private Forest Landowners... (Read 2378 times)