Biomass ethanol plant

[Faron]

A Nevada company is proposing to locate a 30 megawatt biomass generating plant in our county, to be accompanied by an ethanol plant that will use some 18 million bushels of corn per year.  The corn plant will use electricity and heat from the power plant. Power will be sold on the grid as well.  The fuels are corn stalks, sawdust and wood chips, clean construction waste, and poultry litter.  They will use on -site strip pits for their water supply, and will operate a closed loop, with no water discharge.  This will add $200 million to our tax base, as well as about 100 well paying jobs. There is a small but vigorous group in opposition to the project. Bioman suggested I ought to open a thread here to solicit ideas on ways to support this project, as well as a detector for any nonsense either side might put out.
I support the project as it was described the other night in a public meeting. There are likely angles I am missing on this, so I welcome your ideas.  The company's website is www.ripattigroup.com  The opposition is www.stopripatti.com.  They are relying to a large extent on information from radical environmental groups, and trying to create a great deal of fear among the older people in the community and suck in the uninformed.  I don't want to pick a fight with these people, but I don't see how we can allow this opportunity to get away. Any ideas?

[Riles]

Chicken litter makes much better fertilizer than fuel. Especially when you're trying to grow biomass.

[Faron]

I think you are right, Riles.  I understand the problem is that in some areas farmers have applied  all that can be legally  applied, and the poultry producers have trouble getting rid of it, especially during bad weather, and during the growing season when the land is in crops.

[flip]

I find it hard to believe someone could argue against it   The people that are against it are they coal guys?   If they can use waste and employee 100 people to generate electricity why not.  It better than burning coal or oil

[Norm]

We have a very large egg laying industry in Iowa. The problem with it as fertilizer is it's so rich that you have to be careful using it without composting it first, which comes with many more problems than you'd think. So we're stuck using it only in the fall. I've read that it makes a pretty good bio fuel but have not seen any used around here that way. I wonder if they can use the DDG's as chicken feed also. We use it as cattle feed around us.

Seems like a darn good idea to me but some folks can only see the worst in things....too bad.

[olyman]

norm--kinda like the coal electric plant in waterloo???

[Faron]

Flip, I am going to track that down.  I suspect some of the opposition has roots in the coal fired  plants down here and maybe some coal miners, but I am not sure of that.  Much of it is a "not in my backyard" mentality.  And for some reason we have a few who don't seem to want anyone or anything to succeed around here. 

One guy, a logger no less, vowed to run us out of town when we outbid him for our original sawmill building. He is now gone, and we are still there, 11 years later.

[flip]

Morons come and go...

[Faron]

Bioman's post on the Biomizer thread concerning the ethanol plant is almost exactly the concept this company is using, just on a large scale.  Electricity and heat from the power plant will be used in the production of ethanol.  I would think that would make for a very efficient and profitable business.  We have two large coal fired power plants in our county. There are more in the area.  Even with modern scrubbers they are not any too clean, in my opinion.  The opposition to the new plant keeps trying to say the bio plant will have a terrible negative impact on air quality.  From what I have learned about Woodmizer's efforts, I don't think that is true.  Bioman, or anyone else, any comments?

[Faron]

You know,  I wonder why some company couldn't cut a deal with our coal fired power plants to take the heat that now goes into huge cooling towers and use it in an ethanol plant located nearby.  It would seem to me using those sources of energy would make production of ethanol much more profitable.

[Ernie]

Morons come and go...

And they usually end up running countries

[beenthere]

Ernie
You havin problems there in new Zealand? 

[DanG]

You know,  I wonder why some company couldn't cut a deal with our coal fired power plants to take the heat that now goes into huge cooling towers and use it in an ethanol plant located nearby.  It would seem to me using those sources of energy would make production of ethanol much more profitable.

We discussed that very thing in a previous thread, Faron.  I think they have plans to do it in some of the new power plants.  It may be too expensive and disruptive to convert the older plants to that concept, though.  The opponents of ethanol development argue that it takes a lot of energy to produce the alcohol, so they conveniently ignore all the sources of free energy all around us.

There are all sorts of conservation measures available that we haven't been taking advantage of, but there is evidence that some companies are actually starting to think of them.  There was to be a new coal fired plant near here that would be located next to a paper mill.  They were going to use the waste water from the paper mill to generate the steam for the power plant to avoid pumping more ground water and to eliminate the pollution problem they have now.  The plans for the power plant have now been scrapped, however.

[Greg]

Somewhat related to this discussion.

I saw a mention of a company today called Blue Fire Ethanol who is building cellulose to ethanol plants in the US and Japan.

Never heard of them before. Sounds legit. Alot of talk about commericalizing cellulose to ethanol processes, but this is the first I've seen with a real business plan to make it happen. Supposedly will make use of biomass, wood and agricultural wastes, and even garbage as a feedstock.

It will be interesting to watch this company and others like it, develop.
Greg

[footer]

Anyone heard of this place? http://www.e3biofuels.com/
An interestin concept, except they recently filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy.

In Nebraska, the E3 BioFuels plant has filed for bankruptcy after mechanical problems made the rate of production unprofitable. The plant has shut down production pending reorganization.

The plant, which opened in June, was one of the first to use a “closed-loop” system where methane from 28,000 head of cattle was used to provide power to the plant, and distillers grains from ethanol production were fed to the cattle.  A boiler explosion was blamed primarily for the loss in production capacity.

This is what they do.

E3 BioFuels' patented technology brings together three proven components into a single, closed-loop system, with astonishing results for the environment and the ethanol business.

A large cattle feedlot or dairy that produces large quantities of cow manure needing treatment.
An anaerobic digester that transforms the cow manure into biogas.
An ethanol plant that runs on the biogas instead of natural gas or coal, and whose leftover wet grain is fed back to the cattle.
The result is an energy-efficient, low-cost solution to America's energy needs. Not only that, but the process of creating this ethanol doesn't contribute to global warming and actually reduces air and water pollution.

[saddletramp]

Howdy Faron. Just heard the first roumurs about putting an ethanol plant alongside the coal fired plant in our county. They would capture the excess heat from the coal plant and pipe to the excess heat to an ethanol plant sitting right next to it. They (dont really know who THEY are yet) Have talked to the county comm's about putting a truck route around a small town as they expect 200 semi's of corn a day. The dg and oil would be shipped out by rail. The power company is doing a study to find out how much trouble it would be and find out how much money to charge the ethanol people. At first glance it sounds good to me, see how it develops. Faron I will keep you posted.

[Don_Papenburg]

If the poultry farmers are having trouble disposing of their litter all they have to do is callit municipal sludge waste and then it can be injected into the ground to the point of pooling on the surface and running off site .

[Faron]

Those are both interesting projects.  If you guys don't mind, keep us updated on them from time to time. 
I think anytime you can take somethng that is considered waste and turn it into an energy source at a little profit you are accomplishing something very good for our economy and the envirionment.  Obviously biofuels as they stand now can't solve all our energy woes, but it is a part of the puzzle.  I keep remembering that contraption at Kitty Hawk didn't look all that promising, either. 

Here is one example.  An acre of 150 bushel corn also produces about 2100 lbs of cobs.  These cobs could be used in a lot of different ways with no negative impact on soil quality.  Woodmizer's Biomizer would love them.  They can also be fermented and produce ethanol.  I understand  that pound for pound more ethanol can be produced from the cob than the corn itself.  I can't back up that statement, but I read it somewhere. Farmers and manufacturers are working on and have some equipment and modifications to combines to collect these cobs.  I intend to make sure when I purchase my next combine I have enough capacity that I can collect these cobs for one use or another.

[Don_Papenburg]

I was reading today about sweet sorgum.  It uses less nitrogen than corn and produces sugary syrup ready to ferment . Corn and celulous  need to have the starch converted to sugar , the expensive part of ethanol.   The down side is the government  regressive laws .   It would be very profitable to harvest and distill onsite  using a portable still so farmers could share cost .  The feds forbid the use possesion of portable stills .    Once the syrup is distilled it just needs a little refining that could be done at the local ethanol plant.

[DanG]

Could it be, Don, that I am finally sitting in the Catbird seat?   I know you said "sorghum", but sugar cane produces the same sort of syrup, and sugar cane is what I got.  I planted a small patch a couple months ago to make table syrup with.  It got me to thinking about the possibility of making fuel alcohol with it too.  I have a big ol' roller mill that will produce up to 2000 gallons of cane juice per day.  That mill could easily be mounted on a trailer and taken to the field, and the product could be trucked to the distillery.

The biggest problem I see with using it for commercial production is in providing a steady supply of raw material.  Here in our temperate climate, it grows just fine but you only get one crop per year....all at the same time!  Cane juice cannot be held in storage the way corn can, as it begins to ferment in 3 days, even when refrigerated.  As far as I know, it would have to either be frozen, or processed into syrup or sugar in order to hold a year-round supply.  All of those options seem to be energy/cost prohibitive at this time.

I understand they do use sugar cane for ethanol production in S. America, but they can grow it year-round down there, and avoid the stockpiling problem.

With the limited amount of research I have done, I still feel that corn is the best short-term bet for fuel ethanol.  I base this opinion primarily on the fact that its usefulness as animal feed is retained after the ethanol is extracted.

[clousert]

Good Point, DanG

Corn Distillers Grain is the highest value output from ethanol production when looking at the by-products.  Some of the other ingredients just produce junk, which is a cost to get rid of.  That fact, along with the massive infrasture already in place to move corn, is why it is so attractive.

That said, this corn appetite has driven the price of corn to more than double its price, which is bad for livestock producers, and ultimately bad for ethanol plants who budgeted on $2 or maybe $3 corn.

If you have sugar cane and a roller, why not stabilize the liquid you are producing?  Either boil the sap like maple syrup, so that it contains a very high volume of sugar (and will be stable) or ferment it in an oxygen restricted vessel and do a fast distillation - one that might produce 50% ethanol and 50% water - then further refine it later as time permits.  Any alcohol content over 30% should be stable.
In Europe, back in the 1400's, they were having trouble transporting wine on ships because of the movement and instability of the product.  They discovered that by adding hard liquor to the wine (today we call this brandy) they could safely store and transport the product for months at a time.

Just a thought.

[benjaminbof]

Faron, my two cents.Ethanol use 34 per cent of its energy for distill. This energy is low temperature, near water boiling point. To use waste heat is an wonderful idea to hitch hike cooling towers.If you use crops for fermenting probably you will pay to work. Using tractor to plow and harvester to pick up must produce meals because you will take more money. This is know as supply and demand. Last year in Brazil was produced less ethanol from sugar cane due worse state policies.Capitalism is not "infalible".Sugar cane bagasse is useful to breed cattle. Best raw material not only for its cost lower than many other energy products also environmental considerations; is "saw dust". Dedini in Brazil are developing with Honda not only cell ethanol also hybrid cars able to use ethanol mixes in its internal combustion motor.benjaminbof@yahoo.com.ar

[Modat22]

The world needs to figure out how the termite makes enzymes in its gut that break down cellulose to glucose with very little by products left over. If we can duplicate the process we could have extremely efficient ethanol producing plants with very little woody waste and a great fertilizer from the waste.

[Ron Scott]

NEWPAGE NIXES BIOFUELS PROJECT

POSTED: 18 July 2009 , http://www.dailypress.net/page/content.detail/id/513904.html?nav=5003

ESCANABA - NewPage officials have announced they will not continue work on a biofuels gasification project at the company's plant in Escanaba.

NewPage had entered into a joint venture in August 2007 with Chemrec Ab of Sweden. The announcement to discontinue the project was announced in a press release issued Friday by Shawn Hall, medial relations coordinator for the Miamisburg, Ohio-based company.

Company officials cited high costs involved in the installation of the Chemrec process as the company's main reason to discontinue the endeavor, as well as a lack of demand. Company officials did say, however, it may revisit the technology in the future.

As part of the would-be biofuel gasification process, fiber removed from wood chips produced at the craft/pulp mill would have been used in an extraction process in which a black liquor would have been made. Through this byproduct, a biofuel would have been produced.

"While this type of new technology is exciting to consider, unfortunately the escalating cost of the installation of the Chemrec process and the substantial investment required to modify our existing operations precludes us from proceeding with this project," Rick Willett, president and chief executive officer for NewPage, said in the press release.

Willett added that unlike Europe, the demand for methanol and dimethyl ether as transportation fuels has not developed in North America.

"The lack of demand for these products in our country doesn't support the feasibility of the project. To be a viable project, the costs for the installation would need to be much lower and the current market prices for methanol and dimethyl ether would need to improve as well," said Willett.

Prior to announcing the project in 2007, Chemrec AB, which has the proprietary technology, had approached the Michigan Economic Development Corporation (MEDC) to find a partner in the United States.

At that time, a three-phase study was outlined with the ability for either company to opt out at the conclusion of each phase.

Throughout the time-frame of the project, according to Willett, NewPage had worked closely with Chemrec officials, Sen. Debbie Stabenow, Gov. Jennifer Granholm and the MEDC, along with other numerous state and local officials.

"We appreciate the dedication, involvement and support from everyone who worked on this project," said Willett. "As biofuel gasification develops, United States energy policy evolves and the economy improves, it is a possibility that NewPage could revisit the technology in the future."

Chemrec has operated a pilot plant in Piteå, Sweden for two years and recently announced a full-scale production plant at another location in Sweden. 

[glgdiggs]

One of the draw backs of corn based ethanol is EROEI (energy returned on energy invested). Without the federal subsidies there would be no ethanol produced here. Conventional oil has an average EROEI of 20 today in 1930 it was over 100, corn ethanol averages between .85 to 1.7 meaning at .85 it takes more energy to produce it than you get from the ethanol, not good! Biofuels developed from agricultural products have to low an EROEI to ever replace oil which they depend on in inputs (pesticides, fertilizers, diesel, etc.) to grow. Wind is the only renewable energy source with an EROEI of 20. Solar is only at 1 to 1.5 when you consider the total energy to manufacture the panel in comparison to it's enegy use life. So I would not favor a corn based ethanol plant because thermodynamicly they are lossers which so far have only raised the price of food and as a side bar damaged many a small engine. Sorry could'nt help myself.

[OneWithWood]

No need to apologize glgdiggs.  You speak the truth.

[DanG]

'Tis the truth he doth speak, indeed, as long as you only think of solar in terms of panels.  It does take a lot of energy to make corn alcohol, and that is expensive if you have to make that energy just for the purpose.  Heat is energy, and just happens to be the type of energy you need to make alcohol.  Any idea how much energy we create specifically for the purpose of getting rid of heat?  Why not use some of the heat for a purpose, like making ethanol, and save some of the energy that we're currently using to cool things.  Of course, it would take not only a major re-tooling of the current infrastructure, but a major re-tooling of our way of thinking.  The way will not be shown by big companies in huge refineries or massive power plants.  It will be shown by little bright guys like OWW with his little biodiesel machine, and oddball old farts like me who are too lazy to do anything but think.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 I would guess that using the stalks is too much trouble

  Corn stalks contain nearly the same amount of sugar as the corn grain, once converted

  If Ethanol is ruining all these engines, why is Brazil not having all these problems

  Stop the Govt. sugar support pricing, let it float on the open market, and convert some of that along with the Ethanol

  I would also guess that, the Govt. has allotted corn acreage, and most farmers jumped on that. Now, if you don't plant corn, you lose the allottment

  I KNOW y'all will correct me if I'm wrong  

[DanG]

  I KNOW y'all will correct me if I'm wrong  

Hellsbells Harold.  I'll even correct YOU if you ain't wrong!

[Fla._Deadheader]

   

[DanG]

Up there in reply #26, I didn't tie that together as well as I intended.  I meant to insert that it is very easy and very cheap to heat liquids with passive solar.

[sharp edge]

The big problem with ethanol is when the refinerys add it to gas, they end up with to much gas. There only so much oil & gas in a barrel of crude. What are they to do with the extra gas? Give it away?

SE

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Then, why $5.00 a gallon, last year

  Me thinks Americanos are not paying attention

  My first Brides Brother once said, "I don't care if it goes to $5.00 a Gallon. I will still drive". Last year, he sold his 21' boat, because he couldn't afford to use it. 

  I think it's all in the grand scheme of things, to slowly raise prices to where there IS a surplus, and then back off just a tad. Last years episode proved that people will pay, no matter what.

  If I was still living in Florida, I would be in the business of converting cars and light trucks, to all electric. It's NOT that difficult or expensive, if you shop around for parts. 

[DanG]

The problems with ethanol have less to do with cost of production than they do with ripping people off, IMHO.  My understanding is that a bushel of corn weighs 40 pounds, and you have 32 pounds of high-grade cattle feed left after you get the alky out of it.  According to my math, the most loss you can attribute to ethanol is 20%.  However, what I am seeing from the anti-ethanol crowd is that they want to claim the entire cost of production as an expense of making the ethanol.  According to the most liberal math I can conjure up, they shouldn't claim more than 20% of that cost.  Then the feedlot folks don't want to concede that the ethanol people have paid for 20% of the planting and harvesting bill, and they credit themselves for 100% of it.  Now we're being charged for 200% of the production cost.  Then the food people, those who use corn in their products, claim that alcohol production has tripled the cost of their materials, even if corn is just a minor ingredient.  They also want to claim another 100% of the production cost of the ethanol corn, even though it isn't the same corn that they use.  If these people would just deal honestly with their expenses, and use a little common sense in the ethanol production, it could be a profitable business without a Gov't subsidy.

[Fla._Deadheader]

    8

  Someone FINALLY gets it. Good on ya, Dan 

  AND, I will correct YOU. There is 56# of shelled corn per bushel. 

[DanG]

Huh?  You tell me I'm right, then you correct me?  Where'd you ever get an idea like that?

[Fla._Deadheader]

   

Hellsbells Harold.  I'll even correct YOU if you ain't wrong!

[Gary_C]

No need to apologize glgdiggs.  You speak the truth.

I don't see much truth in those claims. If they considered all the energy it took to make those dead dinosaurs into oil as they consider energy of production for corn I wonder how the numbers would look. And food price increases have more to do with transportation cost increases than raw material increases. That has been proven many times in countless studies. Plus the major food for livestock part of the corn still remains after extracting the ethanol. When was the last time you ate an ear of field corn?

This is just more ethanol and farmer bashing than truth.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 The ONLY ones making money on Ethanol-Corn is the chemical companies. They make the Fertilizer, the weed killer, and, I believe, are major feedlot owners

  Over the years, how much has production cost per bushel, increased, compared to price per bushel of corn

  Might be interesting if some good sized corn growers could post some figures.  Seems to me, corn has been LOW for as long as I can remember, compared to production costs

[DanG]

Good point Harold.  I don't have any exact figures, but it seems to me the corn price was about the same as pre-ethanol prices, even back when fuel was thirty cents and seed was $7 a ton instead of $7 a pound.

[Tom]

When was the last time you ate an ear of field corn?

This morning.

Even on the cob or cut and frozen in niblets it's good if you break it before it turns to to starch.

It makes good grits, hominy and cornmeal.   

[DouginUtah]

Average Yearly Corn Prices for Selected States vs. Iowa

                 2000 2001 2002  2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Minnesota   1.75  1.90   2.15  2.35 1.85 1.86 2.89  4.13
IOWA         1.75  1.90   2.25  2.37 1.99 1.94 3.03  4.29

http://www.econ.iastate.edu/outreach/agriculture/periodicals/chartbook/Chartbook2/Tables/Table11B.pdf

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Doug, would you happen to know if the prices you posted are at the elevator, or retail, in the feed store Just want to establish the fact.

  As Tom said, Roastin Ears is GOOOOD  Eatin. Stone ground is, also. 

[beenthere]

I heard a presentation once (20 years ago) that showed the range in price per bushel of corn back 300 years in this country. It ranged between $1 and like $5. The economy and the value of a dollar changed a lot, but not the price for a bushel of corn.
Cannot find such stats when googled.

And we used to eat the field corn on the cob when its development was "just right". A pretty brief window there, as I recall. Not quite as good as the varieties of sweet corn, but a close second. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 That's "Roastin Ears", BT. Add a little sugar to the water, if ya boil the corn, and it's difficult to tell the difference.

[DouginUtah]

The listed prices are the prices received by the farmer as reported by the Department of Agriculture.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Thanks Doug.

[Norm]

Corn is $2.86 at the local elevator today. The price of corn flakes, beef and everything else that went to highs last year due to ethanol driving up food prices are still the same as they were. Input costs to grow it have not come  down.

That truth is almost verbatim to what Exxon sends out to keep you firmly attached to their teat.

Geez Gary you rabble rouser, once again you've got me replying to these evil ethanol threads.

[Gary_C]

Geez Gary you rabble rouser, once again you've got me replying to these evil ethanol threads.

I'm like you Norm on responding to these threads anymore, but I blame my response on that board moderator endorsing that bit of "the truth about their evil competitor ethanol."