GW's pond site tree Water Tupelo?

[GW]

I've been told by at least 5 people that these trees aren't Water Tupelo. The main reason I still believe they are WT is because in a normal weather pattern many of them would be flooded approximately 80% of the time. They might only be in a few inches of water, but flooded still. The one in these photos sits directly in the drain that feeds the pond site. I've also just spent almost an hour comparing my photos to those I could find on the internet and the leaves look exactly like WT to me.







These are from what I think is a sucker from the same tree:

[Texas Ranger]

Yep, what it looks like to me, as well.

[Tom]

GW, if you find that it really is, and the Foresters are saying so, hang onto the butts of them when they are taken down.  The wood is supposed to be soft, plain grained and prized by carvers.  The ones that carve duck decoys are especially the ones who look for it.

[SwampDonkey]

Looks like sourwood to me chum Oxydendrum arboreum  The fruit isn't Tupelo and the leaf stalks are too short. Tupelo leaves are non serrated for the most part, but occasionally some serration. Flowers of tupelo, and thus the fruit are born in axils of the leaves, not on the tip of a branch. Those fruits there will become a capsule which splits in 5 parts when ripe.

[WDH]

SD,  sourwood does not naturally range that far south. 

I believe that it is definately tupelo.

[Texas Ranger]

Could be sour gum

[GW]

Here's a few more pics. The first photo is the same tree from my first post. You can see the banks of the creek clearly in that one. The second photo is a smaller tree 25 or 30 feet downstream, also in the creek. It goes straight up like that for more than 30 feet.

[Texas Ranger]

Butt swell, yup, tupelo, or sour gum.

[WDH]

Most definately a much photographed chapeau at the base of a tupelo

Chapeau......tupelo...get it .  It is getting late and I am getty Dodgy .

[SwampDonkey]

Don't look right to me. Tupelo fruit looks like olives on individual peduncles, not on a long racemes. Time will tell when them capsules bust open. 

You bunch of cherry pickers!!

Relax, that's in relation to the peduncles of sweet cherries we get in the store. 

[GW]

I'm wondering if the little tree is really a sucker or maybe a different tree all together. One thing I can do is eat one of the leaves and see if it's sour. If I never post here again try looking for a species that's poisonous.  I'm also going to dig around on the ground and see if I can find some of last years fruit.

1/4 mile away from this tree is a stand of similar looking trees that is always flooded. And by "always", I mean it's not flooded now but that's only because of the worst drought in over 50 years. I'm new to this area but my neighbor has been here for 85 years and that swamp land is his. I'll go over there today and take some pictures of those trees.

I appreciate the help everybody, please keep in mind that I WANT these to be Water Tupelo...

[Texas Ranger]

The "fruit" appears to be just out of the flower stage, there could be the difference, Swamp.

[SwampDonkey]

No, a peduncle doesn't turn to a raceme or ament or visa versa. You've seen green cherry fruit. That fruiting structure even reminds me of aspen, which also has seed in capsules. But the leaves are not aspen. It would be uncharacteristic of a mature tree to have fruit way down low in the understory, especially if it's shade intolerant.

[GW]

SwampDonkey, doesn't your observation about fruit being in the understory support the idea that this small plant isn't the same as the larger tree? I'll try to get a better look, but I haven't seen fruit on any higher branches.

[SwampDonkey]

Roger wilco.

[Dodgy Loner]

You've definitely got yourself a tupelo, GW.  The reason you've been told it's not water tupelo is because it's not.  Water tupelo (Nyssa aquatic) has long petioles and large leaves (usually 4-6").  What you've got is swamp tupelo (Nyssa sylvatica var. biflora), which has the short petioles and smaller leaves that are present in your photo.  Water tupelo is almost exlusively a river bottom tree, while swamp tupelo likes smaller creek bottoms, pond edges, and moist depression.

The second plant in your photo is a Virginia-willow (Itea virginica), hence the confusion over the fruit.  Notice the serrated margins of the leaves - tupelos have smooth margins.  Virginia-willow is an understory shrub that frequents wet areas and rarely gets more than a few feet tall.

Nice photography, by the way!  Those are the best plant photos I've ever seen in this forum.

[SwampDonkey]

Ah willow, 'splains the capsules for me now. Although, I've never seen ovate willow leaves before.

Apparently, swamp Tupelo is another variety of black Tupelo, with narrower leaves. I don't have very extensive info on it. Seems to be mentioned when talking about black tupelo. Bark looks similar to black though.

Was wondering when Duck Dodger was going to pipe in.

[WDH]

SD, oh yea of little faith .

There are several black gums/tupelos.  Black gum, swamp gum or swamp tupelo, water tupelo, and ogeechee gum.  All very similiar and closely related.  Sometimes the difference between them is botanically minor.  Most botanists are splitters rather than lumpers .  I am more of a lumper than a splitter for practical reasons................

[SwampDonkey]

SD, oh yea of little faith .

Especially, when someone tries to pass off willow capsules for Tupelo drupes. 


Do we need another bark discussion? 

Need a break and i don't even smoke. 

[WDH]

Hey, that bark is prototypical tupelo . 

Don't you know that Elvis was from Tupelo .