Author Topic: Hydrogen generator help (Read 2204 times)

flip · « **on:** July 12, 2007, 09:17:34 am »

Ok, so a guy on my Ford dealer message board was talking about a hydrogen generator he has on his truck. I am looking to experiment to see if it does increase my MPG slightly. Of course it's just a supplement to the main fuel so I'm not expecting much. Sos I get curious and do a little research on the net to find out about these little jems

These things are easy to build and install on the vehicle (here comes the but). I need to supply DC voltage to the unit to start the reaction and supply a regulated amperage to it. I need to make sure the thing draws 20amps to supply the amount of H volume to the fuel system to make any difference. Any of you guys know of a device I can regulate the amperage between 10-40 amps dc that is somewhat cheap? Some guys are using DC motor controllers which for that amperage range are $$. I also saw a guy that sells these on Ebay with little plug in capsules which leads me to believe it is some type of resistor

This is my only hang up right now on this, and I know there are some electrical guys here.

Captain · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2007, 10:46:29 am »

Need a little more information - how many watts is this hydrogen generator. Simple Ohm's law calculation at 14 Volts solves to .7 ohm resistance for 20 Amps. This calculation is going to change dynamically when the other load is added.

Captain

flip · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2007, 11:42:32 am »

I havn't built yet, that is the next step. Instructions are all over the web but I don't think they really say how to calculate until after you build. Plan on using stainless steel in a tube 6"X15". If you use straight tap with no conductor like potassium hydroxide you get less production which I guess all relates to how many watts it will draw $:-\$ Hmmmmm.

Dale Hatfield · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2007, 04:33:27 pm »

wonder how it would work in a Diesel?
Could it be set up like a boost cooleror would it be better to run all they way through throttle travel?

flip · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2007, 05:02:14 pm »

They sell the units for diesel only they are about about 50%l larger.

Stump Jumper · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2007, 05:15:15 pm »

i have been playing with this idia also you can change the electrode size to get the amp draw you need untill your soulition gets lower than the electrode ,so make more resevore above the electrodes

Don P · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2007, 05:56:07 pm »

This seems to break one of those rules of thermodynamics. You're burning fuel to turn an engine which in turn spins an alternator which then takes extra current to generate hydrogen. The higher the draw on an alternator the more effort it takes to turn it, it doesn't make power for free. A resistor is taking that effort and turning it into heat, whatever goes on from there is being used to split water? Every step has losses, I dunno

Dale Hatfield · « **Reply #7 on:** July 13, 2007, 06:35:45 am »

Buy I done some searching One place had plans for like a 100 another for 29. Complete kit was anywhere from a 1000 to a few hundred bucks. Mind you that both products looked very much the same. Kinda odd
Dale

flip · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2007, 08:38:01 am »

None of the places or any searching did I find an optimal surface area for the electrodes or amperage. If you have huge plates you make a bunch of hydro but it draws a lot of juice. If plates are too small you get no production so it's really not worth doing, looking for the sweet spot.

As far as being perpetual, that will never happen. What does make sense about the thing though, since your engine is running anyway, you are turning your alternator. An increase of 10-20 amps will not draw more power than what the hydro machine will put off in fuel, it will supplement your fuel requirements but never fully replace with this system.

Since I have scan tools here at work to monitor fuel trims, oxygen sensor readings and such I'll be able to tell if these things really do work. What I expect is that the computer system will recognize excess fuel in the system and try to lean the engine out. It does this by running shorter fuel injector pulse times. So as long as the generator puts out a steady supply of H it should be a benefit on longer drives. I say this because the vehicle runs in a open loop when it is cold and does not take into account for sensor readings until you hit operating temp. Once it is in closed loop fuel delivery is controlled by readings it gets from multiple sensors. If you have a slight vacuum leak the computer will try to compensate by slowly adding fuel (maybe over a 30 minute? time period) until it sees the stoichometric ratio of 14:1. If you hop in your car and take off to the grocery store 2 miles down the road I don't think having a generator would do one bit of good. You may get into closed loop by the time you get there but again, the computer would not be able to compensate for the excess fuel.
This all goes out the window if you use the fuel injectors to deliver the H. The system is more complex and you have to use valving, shutoffs, pressure regulators, and other stuff to make it run 100% all the time. Mucho $$.

Bill · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2007, 12:22:03 am »

Quote from: Don P on July 12, 2007, 05:56:07 pm

This seems to break one of those rules of thermodynamics. You're burning fuel to turn an engine which in turn spins an alternator which then takes extra current to generate hydrogen. The higher the draw on an alternator the more effort it takes to turn it, it doesn't make power for free. A resistor is taking that effort and turning it into heat, whatever goes on from there is being used to split water? Every step has losses, I dunno

FWIW - I'm also interested in seeing that you save fuel. I remember someone back in school ( shoulda been paying more attention I suppose ) saying that when you transfer energy from one form to another it loses anywhere from 10-40% ( or more ) of the original energy. So what that could mean is that you'd be spending more fuel to turn the alternator than if you weren't trying to run the hydrogen generator. Maybe if you could use a "free" water wheel to generate the electricity and saved the hydrogen in a bottle and then added the bottle with a regulator into the truck fuel system ? ? ? Don't know .

Would be good to know how it works out . . .

flip · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2007, 04:22:03 pm »

You can easily tune the generator to put out more than you need, it's a matter of getting the right combination. Obviously not perpetual, but if you increase MPG by supplementing H in place of dino juice it would save some $$, maybe not a huge amount, but on long trips it would help.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #11 on:** August 02, 2007, 05:01:29 pm »

I've thought about this thermodynamic thing, and I'm not sure that really applies. The only energy you're using is to break the bond between hydrogen and oxygen in the water. You're not transferring the energy to the hydrogen.

The use of hydrogen in the engine is that of a fuel. That's a chemical reaction, not a physical one. Given the high energy content of hydrogen, it seems to me that you should be able to extract more energy from the hydrogen than what was put in to break the bond.

Or am I looking at this wrong?

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #12 on:** August 02, 2007, 07:11:40 pm »

I've got info that says Hydrogen burns 3 times hotter than gasoline. THAT should give you some idea on how much assistance you get in the engine.

Don P · « **Reply #13 on:** August 02, 2007, 09:28:24 pm »

I think the change back, is to water, when you burn (oxidize) it. I think that the energy to break the bond is the energy you release when you burn it, less the losses. I might be wrong... make that, I'm probably wrong, I slept through chemistry, several times

.

I do remember that hydrogen bonds were the weakest ones in nature, they are what holds us together

.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #14 on:** August 02, 2007, 10:26:51 pm »

I didn't sleep through chem classes, but I certainly didn't do all that well.

I don't think that the energy to break the bond has anything to do with the amount of energy you get from the hydrogen. I don't think that its a 1 to 1 ratio. When you get beyond that thinking, things fall into place, at least for me.

JimMartin9999 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2007, 10:49:40 pm »

When you burn hydrogen, you ozidize it, i.e. you combine it with ozygen (is this the right spelling?). the product is water, H2O. As someone said above ,there should be equal amounts of energy in both directions, minus the usual loss.

Kcwoodbutcher · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2007, 11:49:37 pm »

The whole thing smacks of the perpetual energy machine. It takes much more energy to break the H2O bond than to recombine them. If this was such a great process with a 110% output energy over input energy it would solve the energy crisis. The sales pitch of this device seems to be-well your running the engine anyway so what's the difference? The alternator is working harder and the engine is using more fuel to compensate.
From another viewpoint it would seem that the amount of hydrogen these units could produce would be insignificant verses the volumes of air/fuel digested by the typical internal combustion engine.The output of the devices would have to be several cubic feet per minute.

Bill · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2007, 12:17:26 am »

FWIW

Over on some of the VW Diesel web sites they talk about the alternatives ( and why they don't get implemented ? ? ? ) . The logic I seem to recall about hydrogen fueled vehicles was twofold I think. The one was that there was/is no distribution system in place ( like for gas or diesel ) that could handle ( the highly volatile ) hydrogen gas/liquid . The other that seemed to kill it was that they couldn't produce hydrogen because it cost more to make it than they could get to sell it ( including govt subsidies ? ) . That's what makes this seem like it ~ may ~ just be too good to be true . So sure would like to hear more about it - either way.

Good Luck

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2007, 06:39:18 am »

If the energy is a minus, then how can they distill other liquids into products without it being a net energy loss? Doesn't the heat break bonds to reform other chemicals?

Here's an overview of where industry is taking this technology.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/how-a-hydrogen-boosted-gasoline-engine-works.htm If it was pie in the sky stuff, they wouldn't be investing in it.

Ianab · « **Reply #19 on:** August 03, 2007, 07:49:05 am »

When you break down complex molecules into simpler ones you usually loose potential energy. So when you ferment sugar into ethanol the reaction gives off energy, but only a percentage of the total. Meanwhile you change sugar, (tasty but useless as a vehicle fuel) into ethanol. Also tasty, but can be burnt in a 'normal' engine. You have a loss in the process, but if you turn 100lb of lumpy sugar into 50lb of ethanol fuel it's acceptable.

There is a lot of hype around fuel conditioners and hydrogen injectors, but do any of them actually help? The link refers to MIT research. But when you search on that it shows they are using a serious electrical discharge on the fuel to partially break it down before it enters the engine. They make no claims about increased power or fuel economy, just the the 'pre-digested' fuel burns with less emissions. OK, thats believable, but they dont actually claim to get more power.
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1999/discover.html

Lots of people want investors to help them develop their patented ideas.. that doesn't mean they actually work.

Cheers

Ian

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Author Topic: Hydrogen generator help (Read 2204 times)