Advice needed about working with loggers-clear cutting woods for a pond

[rebocardo]

There is more then one sad tale on the board because of the lack of a real forester involved in the sale or clearing. Six acres, that is pretty small and if you got paid anything at all, I would consider that 100% bonus.

> At what point do you find out what your trees are worth?

BEFORE they are cut. That is what the forester will do.

> What's the best way to mark the area you want clear cut?

It varies, what I would do is mark the outline/cut trees in orange paint and orange tape on the first branch head height branch if possible or wrap the tape around the tree at head height.

Then where they are not suppose to cut, mark with blue paint and tape, two trees deep. So, if they cut one blue tree by accident, they have no excuse for cutting the second. It does not hurt to clear out the brush, drive stakes, and have blue tape between the stakes as a "do not cross line".

> would you spend every day in the woods observing the logging?

Yes, especially out going trucks.

> Will most loggers put the roads back into good condition when they finish?

No.

> Is there a standard contract for this type of job?

No, but, there are some good ones in this forum.

Removing logs is 1/2 the job on a clearing. What are you going to be doing with the tops and branches? I have cleaned up lots where just a one acre clearing was insurmoutable for the lot owner because of the mess someone else left behind. Especially if they drop a junk tree on top of the tops which makes clearing it very dangerous for anyone that can't rig it and pull it off with equipment

If you have some very nice trees, you don't want them damaged by "barking" while skidding logs or practically destroyed by dropping another tree against it or a good tree gridled by a winch line.

If you are building a pond area, you probably want the stumps removed and not just ground.

> I'll open the lower drain and bring the pond down to about 4 acres giving the trees a chance to dry out.

Any tree (like the ones you listed) that will be in a flood area for an extended amount of time, should be removed as it will die. If the water doesn't kill it the carpenter ants or termites will.
 

[GW]

Thanks rebocardo.

I think I understand everything with one exception. The area that I planned having some flooded trees has quite a few Water Tupelo. The links I posted in reply #13 of this thread led me to believe that WT would thrive submerged. One of them says that when they are found with Cypress that the Water Tupelo are usually in the deeper water. I'm going to want to be pretty sure of this before the timber gets cut.

[GW]

Tomorrow I'm meeting with a state forester. I've also contacted a few private foresters and will meet with them soon. One person we trust very much has worked with what I believe would be called an industrial forester. Our friend explained that this person works for a mill, but that he's known him for many years and considers him to be a fair and honest man.  It goes against my instincts somewhat, but if this friend says he's honest I believe it.

I've convinced Cindy to slow down a bit and get some help setting up a management plan for her woodland. She understands now that it's better to have the woods thinned at the same time the pond site is cut. The friend I mentioned above has had several different parcels logged and he is helping us by sharing some of his mistakes with us. 

Thanks again.

[Hans1]

I have been working on two ponds that are currently being built . My ponds are being constructed for flood control the construction is 90%paid by the federal government.I marked all of the trees in the basin with paint and got bids from three Loggers/small mill operators. The highest bidder paid in full and cut the trees.Clean up is not a issue all remaining trees,stumps and tops were cleared stacked and burned using large  track hoe and dozer. I would not make the process extra trouble unless the tree are of great value.   

[GW]

That's very similar to what we're doing. The pond man will clear and remove all stumps and tops after the clear cutting. The original idea was that the timber from the pond site plus the trees thinned from the other 50+ acres might pay for the pond. I walked the woods with a private forestry consultant yesterday and he said that's possible, but that almost every large tree would have to harvested to do it. That won't happen.

I made my girlfriend aware that the government would pay for part of the pond construction, but she didn't feel comfortable involving them to that extent so we didn't look into it. She's funny that way.


Edit: Anyone who is working on a pond would be wise to check out the Pond Boss website. I've learned a lot there.

[rebocardo]

Some links that might interest you

www.georgiawatercouncil.org

www.agr.georgia.gov

The above publishes the "Farmers and Consumers Market Bulletin" where you can advertise (for free) your firewood and lumber.  It would be a good place for a bid (people put ads in there for that).

Plus, I was thinking a good forester might be able to come up with a plan to allow you a constant supply of 4-6 cords of firewood a year on 80 acres. Most cut and split hardwoods sell in GA for $100-$150 a cord. Getting $600 from the land for free would go a long ways towards paying for the forester and ponds and probably would make it better woods.

[GW]

I'll check those links out rebocardo, thanks. I appreciate looking at less conventional approaches.

That said, the ponds are very costly, relative to your firewood numbers. That income wouldn't pay for the pond in our lifetimes. I got worried for a minute that the pond construction was overpriced, but I've checked the numbers at Pond Boss and those guys weren't shocked. The one Forester I walked the woods with said that for Cindy to pay for the pond with timber money she would have to cut almost every marketable tree from the whole area. They spoke in terms of decades for the woods to regenerate and Cindy won't go for that. The way I presented it to Cindy she could take profit from the timber and wreck the woods, or she can surgically thin the woods and increase her real estate value. Also cleaning up the woods would give benefits from our own enjoyment of them. We have no plans on selling this land, but thinking in those terms might help make the decision easier.

I asked Cindy how important profit was in working out a management plan and she put it last. Basically other than clear cutting the pond site, she wants to do whatever results in a healthy beautiful wildlife habitat and only consider profit as a side benefit. The Forester suggested that Cindy hire a crew to thin unhealthy and (certain) small trees, and to harvest some marketable Loblollys in easy access locations. He said the loggers would chip the small trees and debris and sell the large ones and the result would be about break-even in terms of cost. He said that approach would result in a healthy and beautiful woodland similar to some large plantations his company manages. The down side is no help from timber in paying for the pond.

[WDH]

GW, sounds like that you need to go ahead and cut the trees for the pond.  As to the rest of the property, I would be glad to look at it for you this fall and offer some perspective on how to manage the timber consistent with maximizing wildlife on the property.  In fact, Dodgy Loner and I are planning to attend the Moutrie, GA Sunbelt Ag Exposition in October.  We are thinking about hooking up with DanG, Radar67, and DonK on the excursion.  If it is not too late, I would be happy to stop by your place.  Plus, Dodgy Loner has a passion for looking at trees (not that I don't  ), and it would be very convenient since I believe that you are not too far from Moultrie  .

[GW]

Wow WDH, that's a very generous offer to make to a newbie. I'll forward your offer to Cindy and hopefully the timing will be good. 

I've been wanting to visit the Ag Expo myself. I was planning on asking my neighbor if he wanted to ride up there with me.  He's 85 years old and he's been farming next door for over 50 years counting this year's crop. He's been a great neighbor from the day we moved here.

[WDH]

Sounds like a plan GW .

[DanG]

Ya have to pass right by GW's place to get from Moultrie to here.   GW, you'd be silly to not go to the Moultrie show.  There'll be lots of ForestryForum members there, hanging around the sawmilling area.  We always have a blast.

[GW]

I can't imagine why I wouldn't go. I've heard they also have pond related stuff so I'm definitely going.

I've got an appointment with the 2nd Forester today. I first called him after seeing the company listed on the State Forestry site, then his name came up when I asked another good neighbor for advice. He said that person had done jobs for him and he was happy with the results. Someone else we trust mentioned a person at that same company.

When I spoke with this Forester on the phone he asked who was building the pond. I told him and he said we were working with the best. That's always nice to hear.

When I get a little time I'll be adding some photos of our place to my gallery.
 

[rebocardo]

> Also cleaning up the woods would give benefits from our own enjoyment of them.

Yes, that is why I am having mine done and why I spent a lot of time marking my borders. I want to put in a trail accessable to a ATV or small 4x4 and have a 1+ mile trail to walk around the property edge.  With all the brush cleared for 30+ feet on each side. Mostly so I do not get surprised by a bear or surprise one.

Since enjoyment is the main thing. One thing I might suggest is planning on putting in a screened gazebo with a fire place/pit in the middle of it (BBQ and heat in winter) from where you can watch a sunset over the ponds on higher ground. The firepit/stove/chimney should have a clear shot of sky directly above.

Under some good shade trees so you can enjoy the pond under cover even when the GA sun is beating down, but, hidden from view behind "leave" trees where the opening faces west and is surrounded by trees on the other sides with a possible view of the east.

Reason for mentioning this is for a good breeze you want to place it so it is not blocked by a hill either.

A bushy cedar makes a great shade tree because you can trim the lower branches on one side to fit the gazebo under it and you will always have lower branches directly over the roof unlike a pine. Both the pines and oaks tend to drop dead 3-4" branches that can put a hurting on the gazebo roof. The ideal cedars will probably be about 8-10" DBH and about 40-60 feet tall. Between a pair is ideal. Sweetgums and magnolias (probably no magnolias in your woods) make great ones too because the dead branches do not drop as much as the pine and oaks. Though the seedpods can be a hassle.

Just something to think about when doing the shore line and leave trees and having a rec area and access to it with a small 4x4 or ATV in case you have to drive yourself or someone else up that can't make the walk.

[rebocardo]

Here is a picture of a gazebo (this time in the pond) in Covington GA.

I imagine if you contacted the author, you could go there and sit there to get ideas about feel and look. It appears to be a public place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Duck_pond_with_gazebo.jpg

[GW]

Great ideas rebocardo, the gazebo looks nice. We don't have cedar trees here, but there are Magnolias, thousands of them. They might almost outnumber the Sweet Gums and the Water Oaks. I have a few big Magnolias that I would like to leave within 15 feet of the shoreline but I'm not sure if they'll survive.

This last Forester I met with seems like a good man. We spent half a day looking at Cindy's woods plus 3 other properties he manages. Here's what I got from that meeting:

Like you all said, the property is borderline too small to get loggers interested. The only way to offset the cost of the pond would be to clear cut the whole property. As I said before that's out of the question.

Getting someone out to clear 6 acres for the pond would be difficult. At one point he even stated that we could have the pond man cut and burn the trees. I don't know how serious he was, he might of just been thinking out loud. As you probably know there isn't much high value timber in the pond site.

One option is to leave the wooded area like it is. There's a fair amount of undergrowth and saplings, but the canopy is pretty well developed so even in the summer you can get around alright. There is already a loop road so we can always get around that way easily. The woods are pretty in this natural state so I wouldn't mind just leaving them and having no maintenance.

The last option we talked about is a chipping operation and that is what had been done to the properties we looked at. He took me to one that they were just finishing, and to another one that was done 5 years ago. It was a little strange at first to see only larger trees, but it was nice to be able to see the topography of the land. The trees on that land were about 60 feet apart on average. I asked if you could leave more trees and he said maybe up to 50% more, but but wouldn't advise leaving more than that. I asked about allowing small and medium trees to grow back in and he explained that you would be going from a low maintenance situation to a high maintenance one. If we do this, the question is do we have enough material including the 6 acre clear cut to interest the chipper operators. I would want to leave a 100 foot buffer around the property line and there are several drains that would be left alone. If Cindy likes the idea the Forester will come out and GPS the property to calculate how many acres would be chipped. This would take him about an hour which he would bill for.

Depending on the estimated acreage to be cleared/chipped he might work on either a commission or an hourly basis. He thinks it would most likely be hourly. His company gets $100/hour. He said the chipping operation may pay for itself depending on many variables including oil and timber prices and the effects of weather. He said the goal would be break-even, including his fees, but that over the course of a year or two Cindy might profit a few thousand or spend a few. He said he tries to avoid building up expectations too high and that he would rather have people be pleasantly surprised by some extra profit than have them disappointed by an unexpected expense. I'm the same way.

[blaze83]

this might be a dumb question... what is the pond going to be used for... why log it at all.. why not flood the area and turn it into a wonderful 6 acre fishery... all the flooded trees would make wonderful habitat for panfish, bass,  pearch and other species of fish and wildlife. just a thought

Blaze83

[GW]

blaze83, the main reason is that the soils in the site aren't the best for pond building. To get a good seal they'll be taking out every tree and stump, then mixing the clay deposits with the sandy areas and compacting it with the dozers and scrapers. They're harvesting clay from Cindy's cultivated land to construct the core of the dam and they may even need to bring in some extra clay to line the pond basin. Another reason is that they'll be excavating down a few feet to make the pond deeper. Those are the reasons this pond is fairly expensive to build.

Not a dumb question in my opinion.

 

[GW]

I'm trying to picture what the last Forester meant by chipper operation. I found this web page for a brushcutter-chipper and I'm wondering if that's what he meant. 2/3 of the way into the video they pan the camera through some chipped woodland with only large trees remaining and it looks very similar to what he showed me on the properties we drove through.

Can anyone offer any comparisons between leaving the woods as they are (with small trees and undergrowth), and clearing it like in the video?

Here's the page with the chipper and video: http://www.deniscimaf.com/a-dah100.html

EDIT: I was told that just after the thinning is done they would apply an herbicide to kill the cut trees so they don't regrow. Sweet Gums seemed to be the main focus of that problem. After that the maintenance would be some mowing (annual?) and burning, I think every 4 or 5 years. Of course I was told it depends on a lot of factors.

[Tom]

GW,
Chipper operation could encompass anything from a small brush chipper to a whole tree chipper to a clearing machine that has a grinder on its front that some call a tree eater.  Chips, if in volume, may be removed from the site and sold as fuel, or spread on the site to decompose.
http://www.banditchippers.com/index.php?option=com_models&itemId=15&lineId=3
http://www.morbark.com/

Chipping has evolved into a real science.  Clean chips of specific sizes can be produced to match the market that is available.

[rebocardo]

I know very little about chipping except what I rent for small jobs (usually a 6" Veermer) and what I saw on the History Channel where they use heavy equipment to feed a forest eater.

In the video it appears they leave the chipped stuff on the floor, I think I would want that removed. To me, that would be a hazard and fuel source. Though from experience, the chips do deter undergrowth for at least a few months.

After chipping do you seed the area with wild flowers and such to prevent run off?

It sounds like your property is probably 1" or less top soil and if you dig down with a shovel you can easily hit sand/loam. I would think if you removed all the plant cover with chipping, that is asking for top soil erosion you can't correct.  Though if there are lots in your area done like that I wouldn't worry much then.

I think you being in GA, if you had it chipped and didn't sell it in that big of a clearing (50+ acres), you would be leaving money a lot of the money on the floor too.

http://www.engr.uga.edu/service/outreach/Biofuel%20Directory/Georgia%20Biofuel%20Directory.pdf

> At one point he even stated that we could have the pond man cut and burn the trees.

They do that alot around here. Cut and push in a pile and burn it all. Rubs me 100% the wrong way. I didn't like dumpstering on my last lot clearing, but, they only gave me two weeks to clear the lot.   

> As you probably know there isn't much high value timber in the pond site.

Nope, usually firewood material at best.

> Getting someone out to clear 6 acres for the pond would be difficult.

In GA??? Everyone has a chainsaw    There has to be 500 tree services in the Yellow Pages for Atlanta alone. Getting them to clear it just for the lumber is the tough part.

If I were you and and -needed- only six acres cleared, here is how I would do it.

1) Buy the widest self driven brush cutter possible (Dr.Field's brush cutter with the locking diff and electric start) or rent one. Measure out a 218x218 plot and see how long it takes to clear one acre of all under brush and small trees and to knock it down into shreds and mulch. Just be careful of widow makers attached to vines.

2) Then have someone come in and drop the trees. Pull them to the side or front of the property, and cut into big firewood length piles. People will burn everything you mentioned except the pine. Give the firewood away for free or sell it cheap and find a local pulp mill for the pine. If the pulp mill is too much hassle, I would give the pine away free to a local sawyer even if I had to pay the tree company to drop it off.

It should only cost you about $1000-$1200 an acre to do it that way. Even less if you chip in with the labor on the minor clearing and such.  Then pay someone to come in with HD equipment and rip all the stumps up. Maybe the pond guy. I would burn the stumps though.

Just a few ideas to bounce off you.

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If you want to do the whole thing at once, the chipping with the forester supervising it sounds like the best and fastest solution for you and from your post I assume the chips are sold to offset the cost of the chipping.
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I do think leaving big healthy trees spaced 50-60 feet apart is a good idea. It will give you healthy trees and give you a chance to keep kudzu, vines, and ivy at bay. Also, it probably will reduce the amount of fuel for a fire and with the fires they have had so far in GA, that would be a good thing.

Keeping up anything over 5 acres is no small task in itself, especially if you leave a bunch of small stuff behind that makes it tough to drive though with an ATV/brush cutter combo. I think maybe this is what the forester meant?