Advice needed about working with loggers-clear cutting woods for a pond

[GW]

Hi all.

Sorry about asking such a general question, but I may not have much time to do research before the logging company is available. My questions will be more focused in the future when I'm learning about maintaining our woods.

Things are moving pretty quickly with the contractor who is building two ponds on the property my girlfriend and I share. (She owns 80 acres and I own 2 ) We're each building ponds and hers will be about 6 acres and mine about 1/2 acre. The pond sites haven't had much logging done in many decades and are made up of Loblolly pine, Water Oaks,Tulip Poplar, Sweet gums, Black gums, and a few White Oaks.

The shoreline has been marked at 100 - 200 foot intervals with flags and tape. Actually there will be two different shorelines because we're having two different drain levels. At the high level there will be a little less than an acre where we'll leave the trees to be flooded. I assume we will take out the pines and any White Oaks and leave the Sweet Gums, Water Oaks, Black Gums, and maybe some Poplar. If the water stays up longer than a few months I'll open the lower drain and bring the pond down to about 4 acres giving the trees a chance to dry out. Does that sound OK?

My biggest concern at this time is working with the logging company. I'm not happy being so ignorant about the process. I've taken the time to learn something about the trees we have, but I'm sure there's a ton that I need to know about selling timber. Here's a few things I'm curious about:

At what point do you find out what your trees are worth?

What's the best way to mark the area you want clear cut?

If you could, would you spend every day in the woods observing the logging? That's my inclination.

Will most loggers put the roads back into good condition when they finish?

Is there a standard contract for this type of job?

I should mention that the logging company is in the small SW Georgia town we just moved to, and seems to have a good reputation. I don't have any reason to doubt their integrity, I'm just in the habit of knowing as much as I can in case questions come up.

Thanks for taking the time to read my noobie post.

GW

[ely]

best thing imo is you should make contact with some of that loggers previous customers at least 2-3 and dicuss with them the quality of work they did and any dislikes they may have had. a small town it should not be too tough to get that info. also in  small town if he has been in business for very long he probably knows how to treat folks right. country folks tend to starve the bad weeds out over time, when it comes to loggers, hay balers, and sawmillers.

[WDH]

Welcome to the Forum, GW!  Send me a PM with your location and the name of the logger.  I may be able to help you.

[thurlow]

   

 leave the Sweet Gums, Water Oaks, Black Gums, and maybe some Poplar. If the water stays up longer than a few months I'll open the lower drain and bring the pond down to about 4 acres giving the trees a chance to dry out.   
 

I'm not familiar with Water Oak, but I think the water will eventually kill the other species listed.

[Riles]

Yup, extended flooding of those species would eventually kill them, especially in the growing season. You could get away with a couple weeks in the winter, they prefer a lower elevation, but you'd need Nuttall and overcup oak, bitter pecan, baldcypress and water tupelo for what you're thinking. The white oaks are going to like it the least.

[Phorester]

Good questions to ask, GW, and the time to ask is when you are asking - before you sell the trees, not after.  That's usually when I get these type questions.  The landowner wants me to correct mistakes after he made them instead of keeping them from happening in the first place.

Logging road retirement is a standard logging contract provision. There may be certain laws on this in your State.  Check with your State Forester first. Beyond that, it's flexible.  If you want to split the work, spell it out in the contract.  For instance, you can have the logger do the heavy grading with his equipment and you could do the grass seeding yourself.  Or you could have him do it all.  Just be sure to state it clearly in the contract as to who will do what, and when.

For a clearcut, in my neck of the woods the perimeter is marked clearly with flagging or painting trees.  The instructions given to the logger is, cut every tree inside the perimeter marked in such-and-such way.

I'd spend some time every day when he first starts.  If he's doing what you want, then you might visit only every few days.  A good logger welcomes the landowner, especially at the start so he can adjust his operation to meet the landowners wishes, but some landowners become a pest and expect the logger to take time from his job to visit with them all the time.

Most loggers have developed their own contract.  Naturally they are written to meet his needs, not necessarily the landowners.  So don't use it if it strays too far from what you want, or is so short it doesn't answer your concerns.

As far as a standard contract, don't use one.  Just about every logging job is different. Your State Forester can give you advice on how to write one and what to include and not include.

[WDH]

A real important consideration is to work with a reputable logger.  No contract will relieve your pain and suffering if you get someone who takes advantage of you.  Any recourse on your part to a breech in the agreement will cost you in time and money in the legal system.  The best thing is to be sure you are dealing with someone with a good reputation and track record.  As previously advised by Ely, check around and get references. 

A concern that I have with your situation is that 6-7 acres is very small.  The logger will cut it and be gone in a couple of days unless you are adding other acreage to the sale.  That is not a problem in itself, but the best loggers will not be interested in such a small area.  That makes you more vulnerable to a part-time logger or someone who will be in a hurry to clear cut and clear out.  Don't make things complicated or come at them with a contract that would scare off a lawyer, otherwise the good loggers will steer clear of you.  Keep it simple, with your expectations clearly defined. 

[Gary_C]

All good advice. The way to get the best price is to get more than one bid. However as WDH said, you will have more trouble getting someone interested and then the cost of moving equipment in and site work may eat any returns for the logger.

[DanG]

Welcome to the Forum, GW.    Where in SW Ga, and who's your logger?  I know one logging outfit with a great reputation, but he just sold his business because of cancer.   I don't know who bought it, or if they are honest.  I also know of one who is crooked as a snake.   I have a sneaky suspicion that he may be the one who did the buying and kept the reputable name.

[Phorester]

Good point from WDH about the small size of the job.  Another point on selling timber, it may not happen "overnight".  Quite often loggers don't actually cut some jobs for several weeks or months  after signing the contract.  Being in a hurry to get timber cut as soon as possible also invites the cut-and-run, make-a-big-mess-and-leave  type operators.  Up my way, a standard pulpwood contract is for 6 months, with the understanding that one 6 month extension might be granted.    A sawtimber sale contract is a minimum of one year from the contract signing. 

With all that acreage being owned by your girlfriend, however, there could be much more timber that needs to be cut.  Beware, though, "needs to be cut' should be decided by a professional forester working for you, not someone who wants to buy your trees. 

If you can hold off on getting the pond sites cleared for a few months, I suspect you would be better served by getting a forester to do a forest management plan for the entire acreage before you sell any trees.  Quite likely you and she can get your forests in better health and value following a well thought out management plan.  Again, contact your State Forester for this.  Even if he/she doesn't do such a plan, they can put you in touch with consulting foresters who do.

[Raider Bill]

I think the biggest concern has been over looked here.

Things are moving pretty quickly with the contractor who is building two ponds on the property my girlfriend and I share. (She owns 80 acres and I own 2 ) We're each building ponds and hers will be about 6 acres and mine about 1/2 acre.

YIKES! What happened here man!?

[WDH]

Excellent comment by Phoerster to do a management plan for the whole property.

[GW]

Thanks for all the replies everybody, I would have responded sooner but I changed my email address and got locked out until this afternoon.

Sometime tomorrow I'll address your comments. Cindy and I really appreciate the help.

[GW]

I'd like to start by commenting on the forester. He has lived here all of his life and his family is one of the oldest in this county. People here have good things to say about him and I doubt that he would cheat a new neighbor. My concern isn't about his honesty, but that his crew won't have the patience to deal with an uniformed landowner. Hopefully I can get up to speed with your help. We've talked with smaller loggers in the area and when a job gets too big for them they recommend this company as one that can handle any size job. Besides harvesting timber he also sells forestry related products including large machinery.

One reason he might be inclined to do a small job like this is to help out his cousin who is our pond contractor. The pond man has built ponds all of his life and learned from his father who also was a pond builder. I've done a lot of research about pond building and this man seems knowledgeable and honest. When he had doubts that we would keep a larger sized pond full he recommended a smaller pond which meant less money for him. Cindy and I are both comfortable with the logger and the pond builder.

Your advice to develop a forest management plan makes perfect sense, but there are a few reasons that we don't want to wait very long to start the ponds. The main reason is that the drought conditions we're having make the pond construction easier and could result in a pond that holds water better. I would rather see a contractor work under optimal conditions if possible and that's what we have now. Also if the pond man has to start other jobs there's no telling when he'll have a time slot to fit us in.

One thing I don't understand is what is the harm of having the clear cutting done now, and then having the logger come back when he can to thin the woods? He has already said that that is what he will do. Maybe he's willing to break up the job because he's wanting to help his cousin the pond builder. I'm sure they work together when they can.

When Cindy and I first moved here I contacted the State forestry dept and set up an appointment with a state forester. He came and we walked the woods, but I was surprised by how little he offered in the way of help or even advice. I asked questions about thinning and prescribed burning but he didn't seem very interested. He did give me some great pointers about photography and we tried to find a big Magnolia I had seen before. He said he would send us an outline, but we never heard from him and I lost interest in working with him. I suppose I could try again but I would like to think about some private help.

The area that would be flooded at times has mostly Water Tupelo which I've been calling Black Gum. Maybe the thing to do is to cut all but the Water Tupelo which I know live in standing water. I talked with Cindy about cutting everything and planting Cypress, but the Water Tupelo are common around here on land that floods periodically and if we left them we wouldn't have to wait 20 years to get some big trees. Here's some info about them:

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/Volume_2/nyssa/aquatica.htm

http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2001/11/20.htm

[Tom]

Gw,
There is a major distinction to be made between a Logger and a Forester.  It is not just semantics.   

Foresters are educated at the college level to make decisions about the betterment of the forest and the individual trees.  They are schooled to provide information to landowners about the course of planning that will make their forest or woodlot a sustainable entity, providing income and recreation for generations. 

When recomendations are made to get a forester to help, the members aren't talking of the same level industry as a logger resides.  I'm not speaking out against loggers.  I'm just trying to get you to understand that these are two very different occupations.   Comparing a Logger to a Forester would be much like comparing a Farmer to a Veterinarian, or a mystic to a lawyer.

Any Logger worth his salt will tell you the same thing. 

Your first post ask questions that are fundamental to Forestry study.

While a consulting Forester may handle the contracts for harvest, planting and preparation for you, they don't have to do the whole thing.  To ignore that level of industry expertise when it is so readily available could be folly.  If it were me, I would run to my nearest consulting Forester as fast as my feet would carry me and ask for advice.  It may end up in a contract that will ultimately serve your family well.  It will, in the least, give you peace of mind and provide some direction. 

[Phorester]

I would say that if you can get the logger to come back to thin your woods after he does the clearcuts, then that's good.  My concern was that he would not want to come back to do a thinning after doing the clearcut because of the reduced volume of trees he would have to come back for.  It might not be worth it for him to come back.  In other words, offering both at the same time would give you more timber volume to sell, making it more attractive to a buyer.

But....., you need to have the trees to be removed in a thinning chosen by a professional forester working for you.  In other words, not someone who wants to buy your trees. That would be a conflict of interest.   No disrespect to the logger, but a pro forester will be more knowledgeble about the biological aspects of choosing which trees to remove.  More to the point, choosing which trees to leave for the future based on good biology, and removing the ones that are inhibiting their growth.  And the logger has the knowledge to remove them without damaging the land or the trees left.

Since you have had bad luck with the State Forester (shame on him - since I'm one too, but maybe he can't offer as many services as we can in Virginia) you need to hire a consulting forester in your area to do this for you. Hopefully, the State forester could provide you with a list of those, or maybe somebody in this forum can.

[Phorester]

Well put, TOM.

[GW]

Well, I guess we're in the market for a forester. I can see that what's been bothering me is the idea of working only with a logger, even if they're a good logger. I just didn't have the words to go with it.

It sounds like finding and hiring a good forester should take care of most of our issues. I'll call the state tomorrow and see what they say. In defense of the state forester that came out to see us I remember he told me that he had to cover a huge territory, so maybe it's wasn't his fault he couldn't do more.

I hate being ignorant, thanks for helping.

[Tom]

Stay in touch here too, cause, we have Foresters floating around the corners to answer questions.  It's just that you will be better served by someone that can walk your property with you.  The interest will remain here.  We're a curious bunch and will want to know how things are going. 

[GW]

Thanks Tom. You didn't get rid of me that easily.

As time passes I would like to do more and more of maintenance myself. I've always enjoyed gardening and landscaping and I think caring for some pretty wooded land would be even better. At the least I will want to do the lighter work. This property we found is something special and any time I spend working on it is time well spent. I'll have plenty more questions.