What, pray tell, is this little rascal? More pics... (Solved as Winged Elm)

[tcsmpsi]

My photos didn't turn out quite as crisp as I would have liked, but then, with the thickness/pressure of the air, I'm not surprised.   

 

 

 

 

[SwampDonkey]

Chestnut oak of some sort? But, I'm leaning toward a suckered American Chestnut. 

[Dodgy Loner]

See the corky wings on the branch in the third photo?  That means it's an elm of some sort.  Probably a winged elm (Ulmus alata).  Cedar elm (Ulmus crassifolia) also has corky wings, but the leaves have blunt tips.  The leaves of that specimen look too pointy.

[WDH]

The leaves look doubly serrate, and with the corky wings, I agree with DL.  That is the country for cedar elm, though.  Maybe the pointy tips on the new growth is misleading .  I agree that it is either winged elm or cedar elm.  Hmmmm.....  the bark looks kinda smooth for winged elm. 

I recognize the fence, so I know where the pic was taken.  Definitely in Wet Texas .

[SwampDonkey]

The leaves look doubly serrate, and with the corky wings, I agree with DL. 

You guys got better eyesight than me. No matter what strength of glasses I put on I can't see no double serration or 'corky wings'. 

That bark don't look like any elm I'm familiar with. Of course I've only ever seen American Elm or European elm. 

Corky wings on branchlets is a trait of bur oak, but that ain't bur, for sure.

[WDH]

In the third pic, look at the leftmost vertical branch.  Also on the small horizontal branch extending to the left on the leftside of the 3rd pic.  Even thought the leaf pics are a little blurry, I can infer double serrations

[SwampDonkey]

  That's just a dead branch with the bark pealing off.  What about all the other branches? That horizontal branch is a blur, all I see is army worms marching across it.

[WDH]

Now that you mention it, I can see the worms too .  Next thing you know, we be seeing pictures of the beatles .

[tcsmpsi]

I didn't see the worms, but, I do think maybe I hear the beatles.   

I had given thought to chestnut of some sort, but could never get it to agree.

It is the only loner I know of on the place. 

All the leaves, new and old, are pointy.

I'll try to get a couple more, prehaps even more photogenically descriptive (I have distinguished that it may possibly not be the air creating blurriness) photos.

[ely]

i would have to agree that its an elm of some sorts but i am in no way a tree expert. i will have to say that it is most definately banjo's playing, not the beatles.

[WDH]

If I can see double serrations, then I guess you can hear banjos playing

[tcsmpsi]

I took a couple more photos that I'll share of the little rascal.  I don't know that they will help pin down its whatzit status, but, we shall see.

Of course, there are a couple within the knowledge base here who could shine their true diligence in such undertaking, by presenting a closer encounter.   

 

 

 

[Texas Ranger]

After due consideration, and without observing the living creature, I am going to go with winged elm.  A more elliptical leaf than on cedar elm.

Just a guess.

[tcsmpsi]

Well, mister, I would have to say that would be a bit more than just a "guess".  There is more than just a bit of knowledge leading to that conclusion.   

Do you see that rascal very often around these parts? 

Of course, one could still shine by a closer encounter.   

[Dodgy Loner]

Yep.  All of those leaves say "winged elm" to me .

[Texas Ranger]

Michael, yep, got a bunch of them around here, usually not that big, but, being on the edge of the road it gets a lot more sun light than most of the others found in the understory.

[tcsmpsi]

It has been a confusing specimen to me, due to some difference in the leaves and the lack of wings (that, and I ain't all that bright on tree/plant identification...especially, if they're being a bit reticent in the matter) on the branches and/or trunk.

I know in the first group of photos, the third photo, there appears to be be wings on a branch, though I can not remember any such on any of the branches of that little rascal.  SD might be on to something about the worms.     I believe I have another view of that same branch in the second group of photos in which there appears no indication of the wings.

Though, as of yet, we have been fortunate not to experience the influx of webworm that has been inundating the area, what with all the prime conditions for them as of late.

The leaves on this tree are thinner, a little larger and softer than what I generally associate with, what I believe to be, the usual understory little elm we have (which is what I had remembered referring to as a "pi** elm").  In fact, now that I think upon it, I believe I have some of that on the place. 

But, then too, I sure as heck haven't found anything else to call it.  Of course, I have pruned it a little every year for the last...probably 15 yrs or so.  And, since it is right at the gate entrance to the place, and more in the open, as you mention, might have given it a little different characterization.  And, being right under the electrical entrance and transformer.     

[Dodgy Loner]

Don't let the lack of wings fool you.  Winged elms, especially mature ones, usually don't have any wings at all.  Young seedlings usually have an abundance of wings, but not always.  Your tree is right in the transitional period, where you can generally find a few wings, but not too many.

Basically, an elm that has wings can be narrowed down to either winged elm or cedar elm (or more rarely, September elm).  However, an elm that does not have wings could be any kind of elm.  You can't rule out winged elm or cedar elm based on the absence of wings.

[SwampDonkey]

I know you guys have it nailed down. But that bark sure looks like red maple. 

[TexasTimbers]

That leaf looks like an elm to my very uneducated IDing abilities.

Worms eh. Anyone like catfish? I prefer salt water fish and the fishier the better.
Blacktip shark is downright tasty. So is Cobia. Can't catch 'em with worms though.

[WDH]

Of course, there are a couple within the knowledge base here who could shine their true diligence in such undertaking, by presenting a closer encounter.   

REPORT FROM THE FIELD:

A closer encounter occurred .  With the permission of Tcsmpsi, dutiful tree parent, this observer surreptitiously observed subject specimen at very close and intimate quarters .

 

Unequalateral bases were present, and the diagnosis of elm was confirmed.  Subject specimen, much to my chagrin  , while proving to be an elm, did not display appropriate demeanor to confirm the suspicions of either winged  elm or cedar elm.  After a little head scratching  , this observer carefully observed said branching and could not find conclusive evidence of tell-tale wings, a point previously made by said tree parent and curator.  There were some bumping looking, almost hackberry like protrubrances, but very few in number.  The branches were alarming smooth.  Also, said leaves were not thick and leathery enough to point to the dastardly cedar elm, pith Allum as I learned a number of years ago in Paris, Texas.  The real kicker was the the leaves, on their upper sides, were as smooth as a baby's-bottom.  Soft and shiny, like said urator said . 

After much deliberation, said observer came to the conclusion that he was observing American Elm, Ulmus americana, totally blowing out of the water his previous assessment of cedar elm .

[Texas Ranger]

Nope, with the new photo evidence, gonna change my mind, water elm, leaf is coarsely dentate, American elm has "frilly" dentate.  Water elm has slimmer leaves than American, and in 40 years have found only one genuine American elm in Texas (of course, disclaimer, never look for them much, either)

Yup, Planera aquatica.

Did ya get wet, Dan?

[WDH]

Kevjay, well, I had a fine breakfast with the Texas Ranger.  Then paid a short visit to the philosophical Tcsmpsi where we discussed weighty matters.  Then, with the best intentions of mice and men, I struck out for the wet, hot, humid, tick infested, snake infested, spider infested, and much muddy East Texas thickets.  But alas, a saving phone call arrived in the nick of time with a bureaucratical nightmare that needed corporate attention and my able assistance.  Spent most of the day at the computer problem solving.  Saved from the heat, rain, heat, and rain.  In that order.  Oh well, tomorrow is another day .

TR, posted on Georgia Florida Rain thread. 

[SwampDonkey]

Bark on trunk and branches are too smooth for American elm. Even a young American elm starts getting flaky bark after about 1 inch diameter. But, it surely is an elm of some sort.

[WDH]

After sleeping on it, I have concluded that several things about this tree don't look right.  It seems like it is a cross between several species.  It looks more like winged, but acts like american elm.  It is not cedar elm or water elm.  It is not slippery elm.

I guess I will have to call it American Wingless Winged Texas Elm (Ulmus alata var. americana var. tcsmpsia). 

Sometimes things don't fall neatly into our pigeon holes.  Put a gun to my head and tell me I have one chance to get it right....I am calling it a non typical winged elm with american elm tendencies .

[tcsmpsi]

As you see, in the upper left quadrant of your first photo, WDH, my previous assessment of our good fortune not to be inundated with the worm, as is becoming prolific in the area, may have been a bit premature.   I thought I may should have kept my mouth shut.    

WDH, recognition of my being remiss in my introductions when ol' Red came in.  Hadn't seen him in some years, and was a bit preoccupied in determining the scope of the weight he seemed to be bearing.

I thought those strange buggy tracks in the drive might be yours.  

So, DL, with new field evidence available, do you still hold to your previous, well articulated assessment of a transitional winged elm?

Thusfar, it would seem that we have an American Red Maple Winged Water Elm.
With perhaps a Cannabaceae ancestral influence.  
                                
                                                            
  ****                                                
    Well, WDH, seems we rounded this corner 'bout the same time. 

[TexasTimbers]

. . . . . Then paid a short visit to the philosophical Tcsmpsi where we discussed weighty matters. . . . .

I just can't imagine that.

[tcsmpsi]

. . . . . Then paid a short visit to the philosophical Tcsmpsi where we discussed weighty matters. . . . .

I just can't imagine that.

Well now, kev, I just can't imagine why you can't imagine that.   

[WDH]

See, I told you he was philosophical .

[Texas Ranger]

Danny, you sure you aint a Texan?

[WDH]

I think that I might be becoming naturalized .

[tcsmpsi]

I think that I might be becoming naturalized .

I would thoughtfully confirm that analysis.   

Ahhhh...hear it?   That rolling thunder coming in announcing yet another darkened day of earth washing.
 
Ahhh yes...getting louder and darker, now.  Soon....we'll be blessed with a little rain. 

What do you think?  Has this little rascal been 'solved'?

[WDH]

Yes, it has been solved in my opinion.  I have done some additional research (the field type), and I have found additional winged elm with very smooth leaves in that part of the country.  Usually the upper sides are scabrous, but not always.  I am confident it is Ulmus alata.

[Dodgy Loner]

I can see why there was some confusion when you went to see the tree - the leaves you posted look too fat to be winged elm, but to short to be American elm.  I'm going to stick with my original assesment of winged elm, though.  Just an odd little specimen from the western end of its range .  I'd say that this little rascal has been solved.

[tcsmpsi]

Ahhhh....the ulmas alata alma mater.   

Kind of a shame though...that American Wingless Winged Texas Elm had kind of a ring to it.   

[WDH]

You just liked the tcsmpsia part .