Author Topic: Nail size? (Read 1505 times)

metalspinner · « **on:** June 18, 2007, 09:08:39 am »

I'm fixin' to get ready to build something.

A couple of garden sheds and such to be exact. I will be using AD rough sawn poplar 2X material for framing. What size nail do you guy's usually use for true 2" thick material? I need to buy a framing gun and a box of nails, so some advice from you guy's would be appreciated.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2007, 09:25:59 am »

I have a Hitatchi NR90AC3 round head nailer that shoots from 2 3/8 to 3 1/2" nails. It has a selector for for single or double sequential firing. I have been very happy with it.

More than likely I bought it through Amazon.com HERE a look at it.

WDH · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2007, 09:53:39 am »

Quote from: metalspinner on June 18, 2007, 09:08:39 am

I'm fixin' to get ready to build something.

Translation: If you are "fixing' to get ready" to do something, that means that the intent is strong, the cognitive process are working, and planning is taking place in the mind

.

thurlow · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2007, 10:04:04 am »

When I used elbow power, it was 16s, 20s and 40s for 2 inch stuff...........depending on the application. Have had a Paslode framing nailer (air) for 7 or 8 years; it changed my life as far as framing stuff up. Originally only clipped head nails could be had for it, but now off-set/full head nails are available. I think 3 and a quarter inch are the longest nails made for it. I bought it instead of one of the other brands, because they seem to be preferred (locally) by the professionals, probably because of the support at the local lumber shed.....................

badpenny · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2007, 11:37:14 am »

I am using a Campbell Hausfeld stick nailer, with 3 1/2" clipped head nails for all the framing in my new home, full 2X sills, joists and studs. 2 1/2" is the shortest I have found locally, using them for nailing down decking, anything 3/4" thick or so. This setup seems to be working well for me, your mileage may vary.

metalspinner · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2007, 11:53:48 am »

Quote

Translation: If you are "fixing' to get ready" to do something, that means that the intent is strong, the cognitive process are working, and planning is taking place in the mind .

BINGO!

thurlow · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2007, 12:00:13 pm »

From an older gentleman in our church...........a long time ago. "I'm fixin to go ..................." From VERY proper retired schoolteacher, "Well, actually, fixing means repairing". "That's perxactly what I meant, "I'm repairing to go..............."

tcsmpsi · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2007, 12:32:21 pm »

General framing work, I use my old DuoFast with 31/2" coated nails.

If it ain't wanting to comply, I'll hand drive 16s or 20s screw-shank galvanized to draw it up.

Using full 2", I would consider the standard 31/2" framing nail as a minimal application.

gharlan · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2007, 12:59:20 pm »

ther is more to be aware of than length in gun nails. They are also given in diameters---.120--.131. For framing a stud to plate two 3"x.131 nails meet code. But it takes three 3"x.120 to meet the code. That being said, when it is just a matter of pulling a trigger most carpenters way exceed code with any diameter nail used.

Don P · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:36:28 pm »

What gharlan said plus, nails develop rated strength when buried 10 diameters into the main member. For most framing I'd use the 3-1/2" longs and big diameter. Deformed shanks and full heads don't change shear strength but do help with withdrawal. Its hard to beat hardened ring or spiral shanked hand drives, especially if working with green wood. In fact they are the only ones that don't lose withdrawal strength in that situation. Hand drives and a palm nailer would be a not too bad way to do that.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:41:52 pm »

Quote

For framing a stud to plate two 3"x.131 nails meet code. But it takes three 3"x.120 to meet the code.

Makes ya wonder how the old timers ever got a house to stand more than a few years, EH

I never saw a Micrometer in my grandfathers Tool chest, OR my Uncle's tool chest

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2007, 09:25:15 pm »

I am going to use trunnels in my house, do they have a code for that?

Dave

Don P · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2007, 10:16:06 pm »

Yup, engineering required

That is a direct quote, notice the -ing

You didn't see grandpa frame with a .131 or a .120 "box nail", his were .162-.225 "commons". I grew up with .148 "sinkers" mostly. Each has a strength just like different sizes and materials of bolts or ... pegs.

It's no different than knowing when to use a 2x10 rather than a 2x8 and how closely to space them. A building is nothing but a bunch of sticks held off the ground by connections. Generally when stressed, buildings fail at the connections. The engineers of great great grandpa's day understood this and gave him rules of thumb that covered most situations for the common nails of that time. Since then nail and screw sizes have changed. Many people mistakenly still use the nail counts and spacing from the older common nails with the smaller diameter gun nails.

A strong enough timber with unknown or inadequate connections is a waste of lumber. Using 5- 1/4" studs to hold the wheels on your car just because grandpa used 5 of something to hold the wheels on his car isn't going to be much comfort as you send someone else's kids out to drive the car

.

Handy Andy · « **Reply #13 on:** June 18, 2007, 10:45:50 pm »

About 25 years ago, maybe 30 I bought my first 16d framing gun. I found that the time saved was about one man. Of 3. So 2 guys could frame a house with a gun as fast as 3 guys could frame nailing by hand. The problem back then is the gun had to be fixed at least once to get through framing one house. Now I have a Hitachi, and it just doesn't break down. Don't frame nearly as often as I once did, but get out the old gun and it still works. I think the question is using 2" lumber how long nails do you need to use. The maximum length of most framing guns is 3 1/2. We usually use 3 1/4 with standard framing material, so 3 1/2 would be OK. Sure some codes will specify, but if you check, they don't allow you to saw your own lumber. Not graded. But the code is a good place to check.

Don P · « **Reply #14 on:** June 18, 2007, 11:37:29 pm »

There's a good connection calculator on the AWC's website here;
http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp

I was curious and ran some nails real quick in full 2" SPF lumber.
a gun 12d- .128x 3.25" is allowed 79 lbs in shear
a hand drive 16d cc sinker- .148x 3.25" gets 93 lbs
a hand drive 20d common- .192x4" will take 144 lbs in shear

Look at the diameters of the 2 old hand drives. Move the diameter decimal a tens place, that is the optimum 10d penetration into the main member. Look at the length and think about the wood they were for, ~10 shank diameters into the main member. The .162's, remember when 2x was 1-5/8" thick? There has been the same thought behind the selection of the proper nail diameters and lengths for quite some time. The nails have changed with dimensions or with what the gun of the day could fire. The number of nails is based on the load and what each nail can support.

The calc goes into the math deeper than the 10d rule of thumb and gives strength for many combinations, this allows more interchanges while keeping the strength up. The NDS goes into this to some length. That calc does it all, thats about 50 pages of formulas and tables worth, its pretty slick.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2007, 08:52:21 am »

Sometimes we tend to think that our forefathers knew it all and that building science, construction methods and practices could not have improved over what they did. That is of course, untrue.
On the other hand, there are some really shoddy homes being built that "meet code". I read somewhere in the pasy couple years where the average lifespan of a stick built home is less than 70 years. There is more than one reason for this but the main reason is because they are, "stick" built homes. The "balloon framing " method requires so many parts to be assembled and it starts life out as an inefficient, leaky, porous structure which starts degrading immediately.
Concrete (ICF) is not the only more permanent, cost efficient building method but it is IMHO the best bang for the buck today. Our next home will be a mix of TFed trusses on ICF walls with maybe SIP roof and gables, or maybe 100% ICF, but a metal over SIP roof should last 100 years or more .

If Burlkraft sees this thread he is going to say something like "Hey Kev how's the house coming? Already building your next one

"

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2007, 08:59:00 am »

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2007, 09:39:35 am »

The introduction of balloon framing was the begining of the end in my opinion, but then again, I have been told I like to live in the dark ages.

Dave

Tony · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2007, 06:11:55 pm »

We used the Paslode Framing nailer and also "pole barn" nails. These nails are from 3" and up and ring shank. I'm glad the White Oak 2x's were "fresh", I don't think the shed will fall in anytime soon

Tony

maple flats · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2007, 09:39:48 pm »

I also would use 3 1/2", if you could I would even use 3.75" but I have never seen them.

isawlogs · « **Reply #20 on:** June 19, 2007, 09:56:20 pm »

A long time ago

I help a neighbour , who later became a good friend , build a hunting camp .
He had two types of nails .... big twistys and small twistys

the big ones where 4" galvinized spirrals , small ones where 2 1/2" galvinised spirrals . that is the summer I had Popeys arm .

Don P · « **Reply #21 on:** June 19, 2007, 10:43:26 pm »

Not gun nails but these are the popeye nails I like with the palm nailer. They maintain their strength the best of any when using wood green that then dries.
http://www.mazenails.com/catalog/catalog.php?page=PAGE23&group=POS
http://www.mazenails.com/catalog/catalog.php?page=PAGE23&group=POS2
The instructors in a class were pushing the ring shanks over spirals, they have slightly higher initial withdrawal numbers. When I quizzed a little further, the spirals have a slightly lower initial "pop" but a slightly higher withdrawal from there out. I like spirals myself and maintained that the roofers usually take care of the pop anywhere in the building when they stock the roof

IMERC · « **Reply #22 on:** June 20, 2007, 02:30:50 am »

the Hitachie guns get excellent reviews... look into the 83 model...
16d shorts or fulls will be plenty for what yur doing..

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #23 on:** June 20, 2007, 11:45:58 am »

I have an old Paslode that I like, a old senco, and a REAL old unibody paslode that is too cool. You can tie a rope to it and use as a demolition ball - then after demolishing the building you can cram it full of nails and build something with it. It is LOUD, has a monster recoil, and blows air right into your face

But time and time again as IMERC points out, I find myself reaching for one of my Hitachi's. I don't like that new color scheme though. I wish they had stuck to their light metallic green. All my hitachi's have the old paint scheme. Function over form I know but I just don't like it that they feel like they had to follow Makita's radical youth-getter makeover.

Don P · « **Reply #24 on:** June 20, 2007, 05:53:21 pm »

Quote

and blows air right into your face

I hate having to unwrap eyelashes from the back side of my eyeball

scsmith42 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 20, 2007, 06:11:50 pm »

I've got a Porter Cable FR350Mag. It will shoot a 3.5" nail, as I recall up to .160 diameter or thereabouts.

The nice thing about it is that it's made from magneseum, and it's a bit lighter than the normal air nailer. It shoots a full round head nail, for maximum pullout resistance.

You won't have to reload as often if you buy a clipped head nailer though.

The company in the link that Don provided (Maze nails) has some really great products. I used their 3.5" spiral shank double galvanized nails when I built my perimeter fence - no problem sinking them into very dry locust fence posts.

IMERC · « **Reply #26 on:** June 21, 2007, 01:06:47 am »

Quote from: scsmith42 on June 20, 2007, 06:11:50 pm

You won't have to reload as often if you buy a clipped head nailer though.

local codes now say which nail to use... CH or FRH's...
gotta watch it...

an old Senco SN-IV with the over sized mag will shoot 4" nails...

Paslode offers an offset FR collated nail that works in a lot of CH guns.. several dia's...

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Author Topic: Nail size? (Read 1505 times)