Author Topic: Taxes on alternative fuels? (Read 3699 times)

DanG · « **on:** June 13, 2007, 11:56:36 am »

I hate to risk starting another political tirade here, but this may be important to some of you...or all of us. $:-\$ I just heard on TV that a guy in North Carolina was fined $1000 by the State for using veggie oil in his diesel car. The fine was because he wasn't paying road taxes. My question is, what vehicle has the State of North Carolina provided for him to pay these taxes? Is it not incumbent on them to provide a system for citizens to pay a tax that they expect to collect?

The brief news blurb I saw said that the State had all kinds of programs to encourage the use of alternative fuels.

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #1 on:** June 13, 2007, 12:34:19 pm »

I agree.

Do tractors pay road tax? what about horse and buggies? what about BICYCLES?!?!?!

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #2 on:** June 13, 2007, 12:39:31 pm »

Here ya go. Enjoy the ride.

click here

Tom · « **Reply #3 on:** June 13, 2007, 04:46:04 pm »

Is it really a "fuel" tax or is it a Gasoline tax and a diesel oil tax. They may call it a road tax, but only because the proceeds are supposed to go toward road upkeep. The ony alcohol tax I know of is for human ingestion. When did they start taxing "anything" that you put in you gasoline tank? I've looked for the actual verbiage and can't find it.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2007, 06:41:57 pm »

You're not alone looking for the actual documentation. That's typical Govt. employees changing the wording to fit their needs

They don't understand what's going on, so, it MUST need taxing

DanG · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2007, 11:30:34 pm »

Problem is that they DO understand what's going on, Harold. They see that they will lose a lot of tax money if too many people go the bio-fuel route on their own. I can't say that I totally disagree with them. It is only fair that all users of the roadways help to pay for them. I think there should be a bicycle tax to pay for all the extra pavement that is laid down for bike lanes. The fuel tax is the fairest way I can think of to pay for the roads. My problem with the story is that they fined the guy for not paying the tax without providing a way for him to pay it. How is he supposed to determine how much to pay, or to whom he should pay it?

We have gone way beyond the point where we only concern ourselves with our own individual wallets. We need to think about what we are going to do to maintain our current way of living. As citizens become more innovative in alternative ways to power their vehicles, Government needs to become more innovative in securing the funding to maintain the roads. Singling out one guy to make an example of is not the way!

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #6 on:** June 14, 2007, 08:36:12 am »

DanG, if you read that whole thread, no-one is against paying the taxes. It's the double dealing, paperwork that is the problem, as in all Govt. situations.

There will always be tax cheats. The folks doing the fuel thing are actually pioneering the making of quantities of fuel by individuals.

Instead of Govt. having a simple form to pay the tax by, they use paperwork required by commercial operators.

The guy in Illinois, reported about here earlier, has to become a commercial operator of receiving and distributing fuel, before he can pay the tax. He has all records of exactly how much he made and used. Tax due is less than $400.00. for 2 years. Problem is, Govt can't simply put a form together. He MIGHT be doing that they can't see, so, he MUST be doing something illegal. They want him to post a $2500.00 Bond

What gets me is, Tax WAS paid on the cooking oil. Tax WAS paid on the Methanol and Lye. Now, they want more tax, WITH the hassle

It's NEVER simple with the State Govt. Federal Govt has the form, no problem

DanG · « **Reply #7 on:** June 14, 2007, 08:43:54 am »

I think we pretty much just said the same thing, didn't we?

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #8 on:** June 14, 2007, 08:48:34 am »

Can't be.

We never agree

Do we

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #9 on:** June 14, 2007, 05:53:25 pm »

Our state has a tax rates for all types of alternative fuels. They've had them for over 10 years.

Alternative Fuels Tax Rates

CNG (gal) $.079/gallon
Propane/LPG (gal) $.228/gallon
Ethanol (gal) $.208/gallon
Methanol (gal) $.154/gallon
E-85 (gal) $.219/gallon
M-85 (gal) $.178/gallon
LNG (gal) $.182/gallon
Electricity $.0093 KWH

They also have forms for you to file the tax and you can prepay taxes. If prepaid, you also get a discount.

In these cases, compliance seems to be voluntary until caught.

Then they'll make an example out of someone so others fall in line.

Ianab · « **Reply #10 on:** June 14, 2007, 06:46:45 pm »

In NZ diesel fuel doesn't have road tax levied like petrol or LPG does. A lot of it is used off-road and by heavy trucks that have their own mileage/weight based tax system. If you run a diesel powered car / ute then you have to pay tax seperatly and buy an extra windscreen sticker with with your mileage printed on it. So Biodiesel just stays in that class and you buy your mileage as needed. Go to the post shop and buy another 5,000 ks when you need.

But yeah.. if the system isn't in place like that it makes life hard

Cheers

Ian

DanG · « **Reply #11 on:** June 14, 2007, 10:32:51 pm »

Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on June 14, 2007, 08:48:34 am

Can't be.

We never agree Do we

You have agreed with me a couple of times, but I don't recall an occasion where I agreed with you.

Cedarman · « **Reply #12 on:** June 15, 2007, 06:56:48 am »

If its is a road tax, then each person should pay according to the miles driven, not the gallons used. If I get 12 mpg in my big car, I am paying a lot more taxes per mile than my daughters car that gets 40mpg. So there is a big flaw in that we are paying for the road use. We are paying for the gallons used. They just use the tax that they get for the roads. What about the guy that plugs his car in and uses electricity to charge his battery? How is he paying for the roads?

It won't be long before they will be doing odometer checks and you will pay according to miles driven. Then the used car dealers won't have to turn the miles back.

scsmith42 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 15, 2007, 07:22:02 am »

I'm on a bio-diesel list server in North Carolina, and the fellow that DanG referenced in his original posting is on the same list serve.

A couple of weeks ago he shared some insight into the situation, via posting a copy of a letter that he sent to the Governor of NC.

The letter is insightful, and I've posted it below.

Regards, Scott

*****************************

"Robert Teixeira wrote:

Hello to all,

I thought that the folks on the list should be made aware of my situation with the Department of Revenue and using non-road taxed fuel.

Rather than write the story again I thought I'd send a copy of my letter to Governor Easley.

The Charlotte Observer will do a story on this issue in the next several weeks and I will forward a link to the list when it comes out.

Here's the letter, let the discussions begin,

Bob Teixeira

Dear Mr. Easley,

For six months I have been operating a vehicle on vegetable oil and I am currently in a bit of a legal situation with the Department of Revenue.

I was stopped as I drove by an RV checkpoint for the use of dyed diesel and I have been issued federal and state revenue penalties for driving on fuel that did not include road tax. Total fines are $1000.00 State and $1000.00 Federal. They suspected me because I proudly displayed a sticker stating that the vehicle ran on 100 percent vegetable oil.

The fines are steep because of the common abuse of off road dyed diesel being used in trucking companies and RV's. They view this as the same offense.

I have no quarrel with the collection of road tax but I feel the penalties are not related to my offense and that the continued collection of these fines is not in the best interest of the country and our move towards independence from foreign oil. Individuals who are trying to do the right thing environmentally cannot and should not continue to take this kind of financial hit.

This exact situation has occurred in Illinois in January 07. The difference was that their Department of Revenue did not issue a penalty for the use of non-tax paid fuel. They simply were interested in the lost revenue which I should also pay and gladly will do so. By my generous calculations I owe the Dept. of Revenue $ 86.00.

In addition the state of Illinois has recently made changes to the laws regarding this issue. In order to make it easier for individuals to comply with road tax issues, no license is required for usage of up to 5000 gallons per year and payments are to be made once yearly.

If we really want to encourage NC residents to take the lead on alternative fuel use we could follow the example from Washington State where individuals can use up to 600 gallons of bio-fuels per year tax exempt.

Currently NC law requires a license to be a fuel provider, a bond of $2000.00, and monthly payments. The bond portion is currently up for review, a step in the right direction.

I see great inequity in the current system. Toyota Priuses and other hybrid vehicles do not pay road tax for any miles driven on their electric motors and what about vehicles that run on natural gas? I have written Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger wondering how he calculates his road usage tax on his hydrogen powered Hummer. The Department of Revenue is targeting vehicles that run on bio-fuels because it sort of fits with the existing laws. It is clear that the laws for this kind of activity are behind what is happening on the street. We need to make some changes. We need equity and clarity. I suggest reporting odometer readings as part of our annual tax obligations.

Perhaps it is too late for me, since my offense falls under current laws, but it pains me to think that individuals will continue to be discouraged from using fuels from renewable sources that are better for the environment, I know I have been.

My penalty is due by June 13th and any advice before that date would be greatly appreciated!

Sincerely,

Bob Teixeira"

DanG · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2007, 11:05:10 am »

Thanks for posting that, Scott. It is nice to know the facts in the case, rather than trying to draw conclusions from a distorted news blurb. Keep us posted on any developments you learn of, would you?

It is fortunate that the victim here was someone who knew the proper way to handle it. He is trying to work within the system to have the laws adjusted to fit the current situation. That's the American way. I hope the Governor will do something to provide relief.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #15 on:** June 15, 2007, 11:06:56 am »

In the last legislature the State of Indiana exempted home made bio-diesel from fuel taxes as long as it is used by the maker and not sold.

Once in a great while something goes right.

Cedarman · « **Reply #16 on:** June 15, 2007, 03:06:34 pm »

Well, pick me up off the floor and give me oxygen.

A Hoosier

DanG · « **Reply #17 on:** June 15, 2007, 03:49:54 pm »

Good for Indiana!

I got curious and took a quick(2 hours) tour of the Fla laws on fuel taxation. The only mention I found about alternative fuels was the licensing of bio-diesel makers. You have to have a state license to make AND sell it. I assume by that that you could make it for your own use without a license. I never found anything about taxation of it specifically, but there was a lot about dyed(off-road) diesel fuel. It is legal for farmers and commercial fishermen, but not for construction equipment or pleasure boats. The taxes for marine use are much lower than for road use, something like 4.7¢ per gallon. The tax on aviation fuel is about twice that, and for road use, about 10 times. There are forms available for paying those taxes, but again, no mention of alternative fuels that I could find. I guess we'll see what happens when some over-zealous DOT cop tickets somebody for burning frenchfry grease, eh?

Don P · « **Reply #18 on:** June 15, 2007, 05:11:33 pm »

There was a somewhat similar case here a few months ago. The victim came up on their radar when he approached local gov't about providing them with fleet veggie diesel. They let no good deed go unpunished

Tom · « **Reply #19 on:** June 15, 2007, 06:33:27 pm »

This is to be expected since I believe it to be the goal of Government to stop you from doing anything.

scsmith42 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 15, 2007, 06:53:12 pm »

Dang, will do.

FYI there is a North Carolina State Congresscritter that drives a car fueled by veggie oil. He is introducing a bill to create an exemption for personal use (I'm not sure what the annual gallons exempted will be).

Will keep you posted.

Scott

DanG · « **Reply #21 on:** June 15, 2007, 11:00:56 pm »

Thanks Scott. I'll look forward to the updates. This is good stuff.

By the way, I've been meaning to mention...I gotta take exception to your "two cents worth" line. It should read, "He whose DADDY dies with the most toys, wins."

scsmith42 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 17, 2007, 05:48:47 am »

DanG -

Amen Bro!!!

Here's the latest update on NC Biofuels tax:

On Jun 15, 2007, at 12:54 AM, Robert Teixeira wrote:

> Hello to all,
>
> To update you, I heard from Senator Bingham. He is adamant about
> pushing through new legislature that will make individual users of
> less than 500 gallons per quarter, tax exempt! That's 2000 gallons per
> year folks and that would take care of just about all of us. They are
> in session right now and Senator Bingham is very aggressively trying
> to add this issue in to the current session. We couldn't have a
> better advocate, he's a real "shoot from the hip", "tell it like he
> sees it" man and it was a true pleasure to speak with him. Yippee! I
> think that my work is almost done and I'm ready to get back to music
> related stuff. Remember, It's not a law yet, wait for follow up.
>
> One more thing to do and then I think I'm done. I will interview with
> an NPR reporter tomorrow for a spot to air on NPR's "Market Place",
> not sure what day or time.
>
> Thanks again for all the support!
>
> Bob Teixeira

TW · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2007, 03:09:10 pm »

There has been some problems of this kind in Finland too. Our government has decided to do nothing about it because we will build nuclear powerplants to reach the goals of the Kyoto agreement, and therefore do not need renewable motor fuel.
Idiots. My English vocabulary does not include any dirty enogh word so I cannot describe my thoughts.

My sympaties are with those of you who tries to solve thge fuel problem. Go on!!!

DanG · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2007, 10:51:20 pm »

I'm new to this taxation part of the alternative fuel issue, so I haven't had much time to reflect on it. But, as I formulate my cogitation outline, I am starting to wonder if these tax exemptions are wise. I think it is great that some of the pioneers in this new technology will recieve this extra incentive, but I'm not sure it is right to exempt all the users indefinitely. Right now, it isn't much of an issue because there aren't many folks doing it, but what if it becomes more mainstream, and millions of cars and trucks start running on veggie oil and alcohol? It just isn't right for these people to get a "free ride" while the people who don't have an option have to pay all their taxes for them. My initial thought is that those who make their own bio-diesel, and those who merely recycle cooking oil should get a break. Those who buy it from a commercial producer should pay taxes on it to do their part in maintaining the roads. For the record, I have always thought that ALL of the fuel tax should go to either the roads or the regulation and enforcement of the fuel laws, and to pay the cost of taxing the fuel. Not a nickel should go to anything else. By the same token, no other tax money should go to those things.

Come to think of it, the guys that are pumping oil from the local Chinese restaurant are getting their fuel for free anyway, so they shouldn't mind paying the 40 or 50 cents in taxes.

The guys like OWW, who have made a significant investment in money and effort should definitely get a break.

Now these are just my initial knee-jerk thoughts on the matter. I'll probably update some of this after a bit of cogitation and some input from my friends here.

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:15:14 am »

DanG, home made biodeisel will never become mainstream, it's a lot of work and investment to get that far. same thing with alcohol.

Cedarman · « **Reply #26 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:52:30 am »

There is no logic in taxation. If you think there is, it is just coincidence. Taxes on alcohol and tobacco are to keep you from using so much and because they can tax it.
Property taxes for schools. I have no kids in schools, but still have to pay for them because they are for the general welfare of the state. The lady that doesn't have a car benefits from roads that make it possible for her to get mail, groceries, friends to visit etc. Income taxes, because our silly ancestors voted to let them do it. Sales tax, same reason. Fuel taxes, based on gallons used rather than miles driven. Is that fair?
Anytime we can keep from taxing, we are better off. Just because lower income folks don't pay income taxes, doesn't mean they are not taxed to death by all the other insidious taxes.

I will relock my tripped trigger.

stonebroke · « **Reply #27 on:** June 18, 2007, 07:23:56 am »

there should be no tax on any renewable fuel. This would be the best way to encourage renewable fuels. Put all the tax on regular fuels, this would also have the benefit of raising the price of nonrenewable fuels and discouraging there use.

Stonebroke

DanG · « **Reply #28 on:** June 18, 2007, 11:04:50 am »

Cedarman, I bet you're just a barrel of laughs around April 15, eh?

I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy, but somebody has to pay for the infrastructure we enjoy. I just think that everybody should pay a share, and that is what's happening, to a degree. The person who has no car is paying fuel tax too, because it is being passed on to them by the people who bring their mail and goods. To put things in perspective, our car gets 21 mpg and we drive it about 15,000 miles per year. The fuel tax here is 42 cents per gallon, so I'm paying 2¢ per mile, or $300 per year. It ain't exactly taking the food off my table. It is the other $2.58 per gallon that is killing me! The tax that is kicking things out of balance is the sales tax. At 7% of the price, there is an additional 21 cents per gallon tax on $3 fuel! That is figured on the price, so the State is getting a huge windfall with the increased fuel price! Of course, that figure is a little bit skewed because the sales tax is figured on the fuel cost before taxes.

The illogical part of the tax lies in the way the money is spent. They could certainly get by with a lot less!

OneWithWood · « **Reply #29 on:** June 18, 2007, 12:40:39 pm »

By golly, DanG, I think I should get a break too!! And I do

It is good that someone at the state house was looking for a way to push alternative fuels. I would bet though that if you were to look closely at the issue of taxing individuals who make their own fuel you would find that the dollars expended to collect the tax, especially one that would rely almost totally on self-reporting, far exceed the dollars available for collection. I think it is similar to the personal exemption folks get for brewing their own beer and wine.

I also have to agree with Dan_Shade. Making bio-diesel at home is a very time consuming effort. It takes time to collect the oil and it takes time to brew the stuff. If I didn't thoroughly enjoy tinkering like a mad scientist I doubt I would have become involved in the adventure.

DanG · « **Reply #30 on:** June 18, 2007, 02:44:47 pm »

OWW, for the sake of discussion, lets say you decided you could do better making and selling fuel instead of playing around with wood.

Should the people you're selling to be exempt from paying taxes, too?

The collection system would indeed be cumbersome if we all had to file an annual fuel tax form. That's why it is collected at the pump. How else ya gonna do it? Toll roads? I live on a County road that get's an average of 1 car per hour. Should we put a toll booth at each end of it? That would be ridiculous, but the road gets maintained, and somebody has to pay for that.

Now let's look at your pore old Aunt Maudie. She lives in a little apartment on a very limited income and works as a door greeter at Walmart. She obviously can't make her own fuel to get to work, and nobody within a hundred miles of here sells renewable fuel, so she has to buy gasoline. Is it fair to make her pay my taxes for me, Stonebroke?

Now before anybody else gets their trigger tripped

these are just rhetorical questions intended to provoke thoughtful discussion. I'd really like to see some good ideas on how we can sort out some of the mess we've made for ourselves.

Tom · « **Reply #31 on:** June 18, 2007, 03:52:17 pm »

Tax the right to use the road to get the maintenance funds, not the rate at which the vehicle burns fuel. If there must be a tax, charge on the license tag and let the bureaucrats fight it out as to which segment of the Government gets a piece of the pie. I'm sure there will be some vehicles that will remain exempt.

If the local drunk loses his license and takes his tractor to town for groceries, what's the difference? The important thing to remember is the relativity. It's not our job to earn money to support the governments, it's the governments job to protect us as we live. The cost of doing business shouldn't kill off the customer.

Taxes are just a means for the government to "take" money from its citizens to meet debts incurred by whom?

OneWithWood · « **Reply #32 on:** June 18, 2007, 03:57:16 pm »

If I were to get serious, build a large capacity bio diesel brewing facility and sell to the public, I would be required to sell the fuel using a government inspected fueling facility. That means a licensed and inspected fuel pump. At that point I would expect to collect the taxes on behalf of all the government entities that feel entitled. IF the government should get serious about weaning ourselves from petro based fuels a tax differential could be instituted.
One thing everyone needs to be aware of is that I still pay fuel taxes for my gas powered car and I need to use petro diesel during the winter months so I still get to pay for the infrastructure.
I look at it this way - I go to some extra lengths to burn a cleaner less poluting fuel when I can. The State of Indiana rewards me for my effort.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #33 on:** June 18, 2007, 04:26:55 pm »

Actually, I think the tax is fair enough. We somehow need to get the Wyatt Earps off the Govt dole and get back to reality.

There are so many taxes on taxes, that, Govt just seems to always need more, WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY.

There is WAAYYYYYYY more Pork involved FOR BIG OIL, so, the little guy doesn't stand a chance. Google up Blenders payback. I can't think of what it's actually called. It's the deduction of $1.00 per gallon of Diesel produced by adding 1% Vegoil. BIG OIL is getting stinkin rich(er) from this Boondoggle. Ever heard the terms B-100 and B-99

the B-99 is the blended stuff. Govt PAYS BIG OIL to add the Veg oil, at the tune of $1.00 per Gallon of Diesel blended. B-100 is Pure Veg Oil.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #34 on:** June 18, 2007, 05:36:38 pm »

Thinking on Cedarman's point about taxing by the gallon as not being fair, I tend to think it is. The reason being is those cars with bigger engines are usually on a heavier car. Heavier cars would put more wear and tear on the roads than a lighter one. So the gallon tax is probably pretty fair. I wouldn't want to pay the same rate per mile as the tractor trailers.

Maybe we should have a tax for speed. Put governors on the cars and trucks, and let people pay more if they want to drive faster. Your average car or truck that wants to do the speed limit, let them pay their usual registration fee. If you want to do 10 over, then increase their fees by a couple of 100 bucks/year. 20 over would cost you even more.

stonebroke · « **Reply #35 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:11:06 pm »

Quote from: DanG on June 18, 2007, 02:44:47 pm

OWW, for the sake of discussion, lets say you decided you could do better making and selling fuel instead of playing around with wood. Should the people you're selling to be exempt from paying taxes, too?

The collection system would indeed be cumbersome if we all had to file an annual fuel tax form. That's why it is collected at the pump. How else ya gonna do it? Toll roads? I live on a County road that get's an average of 1 car per hour. Should we put a toll booth at each end of it? That would be ridiculous, but the road gets maintained, and somebody has to pay for that.

Now let's look at your pore old Aunt Maudie. She lives in a little apartment on a very limited income and works as a door greeter at Walmart. She obviously can't make her own fuel to get to work, and nobody within a hundred miles of here sells renewable fuel, so she has to buy gasoline. Is it fair to make her pay my taxes for me, Stonebroke?

Now before anybody else gets their trigger tripped these are just rhetorical questions intended to provoke thoughtful discussion. I'd really like to see some good ideas on how we can sort out some of the mess we've made for ourselves.

DanG

If we are going to use taxes for social engineering than renewable fuels would be on the top of my list. I would not purpose to keep the tax exemption forever but the industry needs a jump start. If no one is selling renewable fuel within 100 miles than I guess that they would not lose too much in taxes. I would much rather have subsidy for americans making fuel here than giving money to overseas interests.

Stonebroke

Quartlow · « **Reply #36 on:** June 29, 2007, 03:32:05 pm »

One big problem I see here is you keep talking about road tax, we used to have that in the trucking industry, it was called HUT, highway use tax. We fought long and hard to get rid of it, problem was you had this thick folder with tax stickers and paperwork and a ton of stickers on the outside of the truck. Now when you register a commercial vehicle you pick what states you want licensed in. Those are printed right on your registration. You get one sticker now, your IFTA (International Fuel Tax Agreement). Now you report your fuel taxes to one agency instead of 50.

Don't be so hasty in asking for HUT again.

Furby · « **Reply #37 on:** June 30, 2007, 03:34:42 pm »

Don't forget about NY state, they still use HUT.

Bill · « **Reply #38 on:** July 29, 2007, 01:29:29 am »

Sorry to join this thread late but there's a rant coming on here - let it begin:

Fuel taxes - to be used for construction and maintenance of roads. Doesn't matter whether you live in one end of the state or the other - the roads are there if you need 'em to go see Aunt Bessie or a friend. I kinda like what was said about the lower mpg vehicles being heavier so they cause more wear and tear - so its OK to charge by the gallon. Maybe it'd pay to raise the tax for land barge luxury cars - get the rich folks to ask for decent mileage also ? ( Has the world been going to war for oil since WWII ? - different thread - sorry )

BioFuels - IMHO there should be a personal ( fed and st ) exemption for fuel ( and licensing ) you make and use in you own vehicle - to 500 gallons a quarter . The Fed's should pay to certify diesel vehicles for biodiesel ( not the mfg's ) so we encourage the use of low ( zero ? ) polluting biofuels that also reduce foreign oil use. ( Too bad BIG OIL you've been holding us back too long ) If you resell it you're liable for the tax on all of it.

Taxes - I'm agin 'em - they wanna tax the shirt off my back so I'd vote for rollbacks - they always seem to wanna solve problems by creating new ones. Here's one that's gotten me riled up enough to follow through - letter to the state legislature since the Gov wants to add toll gates on I-80; they're already on the PA Trnpk - what's he thinking ( Jeff - my apologies if this isn't allowed ):

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/find.cfm
( to look up rep's email addresses in PA )

I usually don't contact elected officials but the issue with toll roads has shaken me into action.

If the state needs money for roadway maintenance they should use the mechanism they currently have in place - fuel taxes collected at the pump ( we already need to stop to buy fuel so there is no additional penalty to stop on a toll road ) . Whether you live in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh or Altoona the taxes go to support roads here in PA.

Creating toll plazas with the delays to collect tickets ( or pass computerized terminals to track travel ) only serves to waste precious oil in an era when our national priority should be to - reduce - consumption of oil. The delays to pay the toll tickets is evidenced daily with the traffic reports at rush hour - no matter whether at the Philadelphia interchange or elsewhere. A needless waste of scarce ( and expensive ) foreign oil and a taxpayer/voter's free time .

Toll roads on the other hand go to creating bureaucratic jobs and consulting for political ( rewards for loyalty at taxpayer expense ) purposes only - "patronage". There is no valid excuse to perpetuate patronage in this day and age. Leasing toll roads to private industry only adds another layer of bureaucracy ( and "rewards" for politicians supporting it ) and the need to add profits while minimizing expenses - spelled as minimizing maintenance that provides for my family's safety while using the road.

Thank you for your time

Well its been awhile since I've had a good rant - thanks for reading .

stonebroke · « **Reply #39 on:** July 29, 2007, 06:59:47 am »

that was a great rant Bill!!!!!!!

Stonebroke

Don_Papenburg · « **Reply #40 on:** July 29, 2007, 10:22:46 pm »

Ron we have the system for taxing the ones who want to go faster, ask my wife , Wisconsin has a tough system cost her $200 to go a little over . but then she had to go faster to make up for the time spent so they could collect . The system still needs some tweeking.

Bill you should check out Illinois tollroads . You need a electronic transponder or you have to stop at a couple of brandnew manned toll booths with very slow government employees. Talk about a step backwards ,what did they do with all the unmaned automatic toll booths? The ones that did not require a slow gov employee?

DanG · « **Reply #41 on:** July 29, 2007, 11:07:07 pm »

I don't object to toll roads and bridges, as long as they are primarily for a certain group of people who go to a certain place. For instance, the immensely expensive bridge that goes to St. George's Island, just south of me, is just for the people who want to bake their brains out or rent one of the cottages for vacation. I don't feel that I, or the rest of you should have to pay for that.

What I DO object to is that a few states have shanghaied portions of the Interstate Highway System, which we have already paid for, and are charging tolls for us to use. To me, this is nothing short of highway robbery!

There is an attitude in some circles that "the Feds" should pay for certain things. Well, "the Feds" is me and you, folks! Lets come up with some ways to actually conserve some resources and save some money, not just ways to get somebody else to pay for it.

Bill · « **Reply #42 on:** July 30, 2007, 02:04:51 am »

Don
We've got some fancy "EZPass" electronic toll gates now on the PA Trnpk ( think Interstate -76/276 ) . My objection to them is now they've admitted they eliminated some of the employees and are just going for the $$$$ and they gotta outside firm doing it so they need to factor their expenses and profit in on top of what the state gets. Plus I'm not normally a privacy freak but I kinda object to a system that tracks where my car is - at least I have a weird feeling about some stranger able to track my cars going places - kinda as if someone was following me around (?) - and I'm not that exciting .

DanG
Now I know the Romans used tolls to pay for their roads but I think they were the first. So why we need to go back to 2000 year old technology is beyond me - doesn't seem like something a rational man would do. My objection to toll roads is that I pay road taxes for roads out in the middle of the state that I'll never see - why should I now have to pay additional taxes for the roads I do use. If they want toll roads for the roads I use then I think I should get back the road tax they collected on gas for the roads in Emporium PA etc .

IMHO - I think that there are roads throughout the state and whether I use them or not ( they're there iffen I need 'em ) my road tax from gas goes to their construction and maintenance - don't need another tax - toll - for the roads I do actually use . Waste of time and oil/gas plus lets too many bureaucrats put their hand in the till so to speak .

Course just my $.02

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #43 on:** July 31, 2007, 06:04:53 am »

And, if our governor wouldn't have taken $500 million from gas tax receipts and given them for mass transit in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, there wouldn't be any talk about toll roads on I-80.

Tolls from interstate roads can only be used on that highway. I don't have any problem with it. The PA Turnpike is a lot better than most of the interstates in the state. All because they have tolls, and have always had tolls.

The patronage system they have there is pretty corrupt. But, so is all the top tier forms of management in the patronage system. All those legislators that we threw out said they could get better jobs working in the private sector. Most of them came back to the state teat after they were canned. Our rep lost his $70,000/year job and accepted one for $35,000/year with the state. He's still overpaid.

Bill · « **Reply #44 on:** August 01, 2007, 01:38:02 pm »

Ron

FWIW - Our Gov also just finished a major reconstruction/expansion of the Pa Trnpk for the Phila area to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of millions ( my estimate from checking on the cost per mile of interstate construction times the number of miles they did ). My thought is now the piper is due and the Gov doesn't want the people to see how much he spent ( gave away ? ) so its to be buried inside this sale/lease deal he's cooked up.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #45 on:** August 01, 2007, 01:42:28 pm »

Better hope your govenor is not talking to our govenor. Our boy Mitch done sold the Indiana toll road to some Spanish/Australian consortium. Got 3.5 billion for it and he is still crying for money. Now he is trying to sell us a new toll road in the southern half of the state and the state lottery is up for sale.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #46 on:** August 01, 2007, 06:02:48 pm »

Our gov talked about selling the lottery, as well. He's a lame duck, and now he's getting really bold. He can't be reelected. Our legislature is walking on egg shells since we threw 20% of them out of office and threw a superior court judge out because he spent too much money on perks. We really got their attention.

We have just recently got slots in for the purpose reducing property tax. So far, the gov has given out money for a new arena for the Pittsburgh Penguins (so they wouldn't leave) and I think some sort of stadium money. Meanwhile, us taxpayers haven't seen a dime.

I figure by next year at this time, we'll be back with our pitchforks and storming the capitol again.

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