LL's Identification Games (Number 1) - (SOLVED???: pignut hickory)

[Lanier_Lurker]

Yep, not much to go on with that pic.

A hint:

When crushed it is pleasantly fragrant.  In fact, a spice is made from these leaves.

[WDH]

Sassafras albidum

[Lanier_Lurker]

Yep, that is it.

I may do a thread on these later.  This leaf is from the only mature sassafras tree I have, and I am very concerned about it.  I'm afraid it is being slowly but surely shaded to death by some oaks and yellow poplars.  I have another mature sassafras that died about 5 years ago for that very reason - and it is still standing.  They don't seem to be as shade tolerant as sourwood.

I should cut it down and see how well it works for smoking meat before it rots.

[WDH]

Sorry to hear about the little tree .

[Lanier_Lurker]

Uh, this one just got a little more complicated. 

This tree is right at the end of my driveway, so I glance at it every evening when I get home from work (which is in the daylight now finally.....). 

The same limb that had the 5 leaflet leaf last year (shown earlier in the post) has some 7s on it this year.  Then I took a closer look and noticed that *most* of the leaves on the tree are 7s this year.  SO....

WDH's observation about hairy vs smooth rachis in Frank's post (http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,23658.0.html) gave me something else to look at.  These leaves are near the ground so close examination is possible.

They are, as WDH put it, "smooth as a baby's bottom".

To be more certain that I know what "smooth as a baby's bottom" means when comparing rachis(s) on hickories, I went to a known mockernut and looked at it.  Sure enough, it is quite wooly and distinctly different from these.

But, would a hickory with mostly 7s (with smooth rachis) on it be a pignut, or do I possibly have a red hickory here?  Or, since this tree is shaded quite a bit by larger trees could that trigger a greater incidence of 7s?

Unfortunately, the tree is only about 3 inches dbh so examining the bark may be useless.  And, it is not old enough to produce nuts yet either.

Here are some new pictures.

[Dodgy Loner]

Many of the dendrologists I know (including yours truly and both of my dendrology professors) don't consider red hickory to be a distinct species, and simply lump it together with pignut hickory.  The two simply integrade too much to place many of the specimens in either category.  Your specimen is a perfect example of this.

[Lanier_Lurker]

So, do any of the following synonyms align with your way of thinking?  Sounds like perhaps the first one does - simply a variant of glabra?

Or, not a formally recognized variant at all?

Carya glabra var. odorata
Carya ovalis var. mollis
Carya ovalis var. obcordata
Carya ovalis var. obovalis
Carya ovalis var. odorata

[Dodgy Loner]

Yes, I consider red hickory to be a variety of pignut (ie, Carya glabra var. odorata).  However, one of my dendro professors simply considered the entire group to be a single species, as he claimed they integrated too much in some areas to warrant breaking them up into different varieties.  Although my view is not quite that extreme, I do think that whoever came up with all of the distinct varieties of red hickory that you list must have had an overactive imagination.  Oftentimes morphological differences among different populations are more correctly attributed to site differences, rather than genetic variability.

[WDH]

Back in the Pleistocene Era when I took Dendrology, Red Hickory and Pignut Hickory were listed as distinctly different species.  Today, I consider Red Hickory to be a scaly Pignut.  Most of what I learned as Red Hickory has scaly bark (not shaggy like shagbark, just distinctly scaly).  Prototypical Pignut has tight bark.  But, like Dodgy says, there are several intergrades.   

That is a nice 7-leaflet Red Pignut . 

[Lanier_Lurker]

Well, it sounds like the "mostly 5s with occasional 7s" rule for pignut may not be hard and fast.  This tree, this year, is mostly 7s.  But if the smooth rachis is in fact the key characteristic, then it is a pignut.

I have another one up by the house with the same exact characteristics, but with much smaller sun leaves.

I also have a mockernut that was almost entirely 9s last year, but this year it is mostly 7s with just a handful of 9s.

I guess there is always something to learn. 

Perhaps Frank should double check his transplanted hickory for smooth vs wooly rachis?  He could have a pignut after all.

Another question: in terms of lumber quality, would pignut and mockernut be about equal - or is one generally considered better (e.g., on equal site quality and/or being of equal size/form).

BTW, my pignut seeds took a lot longer to germinate than the mockernut, which in turn took a lot longer than the various red oak species (which sprouted like weeds).  I potted 14 pignuts on Sunday.  Those little suckers are a lot of work.  They are extremely hard to de-husk, and the majority of them did not sink (when float tested last fall).  And with the ones I kept, the germination rate is not as good as with the mockernuts.

I should have some pictures of my makeshift tree nursery soon on the other thread.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,30816.0.html)

[Dodgy Loner]

All of the "true hickories"  - mockernut, pignut, shagback, and shellbark - are considered to have wood that is slightly better than the "pecan hickories" - pecan, bitternut hickory, and water hickory.  I use them interchangeably, though, because they are all very hard and very strong.

[WDH]

Of the "true hickories" shagbark is probably the most desired for lumber products, but it is not the most common.  Pignut and mockernut are more prevalent.  However, in the right forest conditions, pignut and mockernut produce some high quality, clear sawlogs.

It seems that hickory lumber has become more popular, especially for cabinets.

[SwampDonkey]

I'd be careful of pubescence to, when it comes to sun and shade leaves. Depending on the location in the crown or canopy there may or may not be those little hairs. I know black cherry doesn't have hairs all the time on every leaf sample.


But I suspect those hairs on some hickory species are a throw back to the oily hairs on butternut and walnut.

[WDH]

The rachis is quite hirsute in mockernut and many of the other hickories .