LL's Identification Games (Number 1) - (SOLVED???: pignut hickory)

[Lanier_Lurker]

Here is one that may provide a little bit of a challenge.

The shoe in the picture is a mens size 11.



 

[WDH]

I am on-to-ya, Mister Lanier Lurker, but I ain't saying .  All I can say is that I bet the stipular scars completely encircle the twig .

However,  I am having big trouble Id'ing the shoe .

[Lanier_Lurker]

Well, seeing as I don't know what stipular scars are, you may be on to me more than I know. 

I figured you would be all over this one.

[DanG]

Cheap knockoff of a Sperry Top-sider. 

[WDH]

Well, a stipule is a little leaf-like structure that form at the base of a leaf petiole as the leaf emerges from the bud.  In this family of plants, the stipules are quite large and showy, but they only last for a few days before falling off.  However, they leave scars from their presence.  In most species, the scars are not conspicuous. In a few they are prominent, and in a few more, the scars left from the stipule form a circle around the twig.  Sycamore is one species that has this characteristic, but this ain't sycamore!

And I ain't saying . 

[Lanier_Lurker]

I took a closer look and I think I may see the characteristic you describe - but I am not certain.

Lets see if we get any other guesses.  I'll wait another day or two before posting the next picture.

Yes DanG, you got it right - cheap Sperry Topsider imitations.  I use them for fishing and shuffling around in my redneck clothes. 

[WDH]

Toward the end of the twig as you approach the bud, look at the area at the base of the leaf petioles.  There should be a thin line that encircles the twig.  About the size as if you drew it on the twig with a fine-pointed pencil.

[Phorester]

You Georgia boys wear shoes?  And socks, too?? 

My first guess from this first picture is bigleaf magnolia, Magnolia macrophylla, although this would be a small leaf of that species.

[WDH]

You Georgia boys wear shoes?  And socks, too?? 

Lanier Lurker, we have been officially insulted .  Those Virginians are just jealous, that is all.  At least our family tree has branches .

The leaf base is not right for big leaf magnolia.  Big leaf has an auriculate base (that means ear-like  ).  The leaf in the pic is not auriculate.  It is either cucumber tree, Magnolia acuminata or umbrella magnolia, Magnolia tripetala.  Both have stipular scars that completely circle the twig .

The way to tell them apart is the leaf arrangement and the buds.  In cucumber tree, the leaves are arranged spaced along the twig, while in umbrella magnolia, the leaves are crowded terminally at the tip of the branch.  Also, cucumber tree has a fuzzy, silky bud and the twigs are pubescent (covered with short tiny hairs) while those in umbrella magnolia are not.

I am going with umbrella magnolia based on the size of the leaf.

[SwampDonkey]

............and some stipules become thorns. OUCH!!


Not to throw anyone off or anything. 

[SwampDonkey]

Am I looking at an entire leaf or a petiole. 

[Lanier_Lurker]

WDH, I thought you had me cornered.

It is not in the Magnoliaceae family.

It is in the Juglandaceae family.

I'll prepare and post another picture later today.

[WDH]

You are sneaky, LL .

A big Carya leaflet probably?  But, then again, that may be a miniature shoe so I better wait for another pic .

[beenthere]

Maybe like the Carya ovata  (shagbark hickory) ?

leaf photo

[Lanier_Lurker]

Yes, they are Carya shade leaves.  I figured the large size and my showing only one leaflet might make it a little bit of a challenge.

Carya glabra (pignut hickory) I'm pretty sure.



 

 

[SwampDonkey]

I planted some last fall from bitternut's seed collection.  Keeping my eyes open for some germination.

[Lanier_Lurker]

Upon a closer inspection, my entire yard (woods) looks like a nursery of hickory trees.  There are all sizes from two year old sprouts, to 30 year old juveniles, to probably 150 year old adults.  I have sprouts all over the place.  The only sprouts I seem to have more of than hickory are white oak and yellow poplar.  There are also a few northern red oaks sprouts.

Many of these sprouts are in places where they will have to be cut back or removed.

Therefore, anyone is welcome to come dig a few up for transplanting (especially the white oaks).

But, I may be a bit too far away for SD.   

[WDH]

You could send him some acorns and nuts .  Well, maybe next year if it rains next year .

[Lanier_Lurker]

As weird as this year has been with the spring freeze and spring drought, I may not have any nuts. 

Interestingly enough, this should be a nut crop year based on my near absence of nuts last year (with the 2 year cycles on various species).  Sadly, one of my large hickories whose crown covers part of my deck and driveway is already dropping green immature nuts that are smaller than the size of your pinky finger thumbnail.  I've blown many hundreds of them into the woods along with freeze-burnt leaves.

[WDH]

LL,

Over the last 4 days, the hickories near my house have begun aborting their nuts.  There are thousands on the ground, just like you said.  I am not optimistic for a good nut year.

[Phorester]

Now, now........... showing only part of a leaf ain't kosher........

[WDH]

We been tricked, Phorester .  Don't worry, we will get him back .

[SwampDonkey]

I tried to make you's wise to the whole caper. 

[WDH]

Swamp D.

You did try, but we didn't listen .  We were not being very auriculate .

[SPIKER]

when I saw it I thought hickory, (didn't get here until today so I'm LATE but on target)  also with what I thought was single leaflet of a larger one that it may have even been buckeye tree but was sure it was in the family of nut trees .. 


dang I got to start getting to these posts sooner. 

mark M

[Dave Shepard]

I sawed out 1200 feet of 5/4x12 clear pignut flooring this winter, waiting to see how it dried.
Beautiful wood.

Dave

[Dodgy Loner]

Beautiful wood, indeed.  Many woodworkers (myself included) have a love/hate relationship with hickory - they love the appearance, but hate the effect that it has on their newly sharpened blades.

[SwampDonkey]

I think pigman made a nice bed (head/foot boards) out of hickory last winter. 

[WDH]

If you like to see sparks fly from your woodworking equipment, hickory is a good choice .

[Dodgy Loner]

You would know, after milling all that T&G paneling for JTS, wouldn't you?

[SwampDonkey]

That's what pin cherry does to brush saw blades to.  Nice fireworks.

[WDH]

Yes DL,

We processed about 500 bd-ft of pecan into T&G paneling, and the sparks flew!  That is between the times you and were looking at other wood or trees .

[Dodgy Loner]

I knew it was a lot, but I didn't realize it was that much!   Sure does look nice though, doesn't it?

[Lanier_Lurker]

Sorry about the sneakiness.   

But, I knew if I showed the entire leaf instead of a leaflet it would be too easy for this group.  I should have had an intermediate picture that showed some, but not all of the leaflets.  Next time I do one of these guessing games I'll do something along those lines.

[WDH]

LL,

I appreciate the challenge. 

What is this youzguys thing .  Is (was) it Yooper night?  I smell a rat .

OK, there is something smelly going on here .

[Lanier_Lurker]

LL,

Over the last 4 days, the hickories near my house have begun aborting their nuts.  There are thousands on the ground, just like you said.  I am not optimistic for a good nut year.

This is still happening with my hickories, but the encouraging thing is that the nuts keep getting bigger.  Those that are dropping now are nearly full size.  They make a resounding "thump" when they hit the hood of my car as I innocently stand next to it.

Maybe some of them will hang on until fall.

[Lanier_Lurker]

Update.

It looks like I mighta had a decent nut crop on the big hickory that overhangs my driveway, house, and deck after all.

Then, over the last couple of weeks I get this.

 

 

My marauding squirrels are not only eating up all the nuts, but they are making a DanG mess in the process.   

Not to mention that I must duck for cover every time I walk outside.  I've threatened my wife that I'm going to start taking care of the little varmints with weaponry, which she didn't take to at all.  Since the 4 cats won't do it I guess it falls to me.  Some silent nocturnal operations may be in order......

The blower gets this stuff pretty well, but the chewed up pieces get caught between the deck boards and I have get down on my knees to pick it out.  I have enough trouble keeping the deck clean as it is without that nonsense.

Good news: the even larger pignut hickory up at the end of the driveway is dropping nuts that may be fertile and will germinate.  SD (or whoever), if you want some let me know.  I've been collecting them.

[SwampDonkey]

The blower gets this stuff pretty well, but the chewed up pieces get caught between the deck boards and I have get down on my knees to pick it out.  I have enough trouble keeping the deck clean as it is without that nonsense.

Whatever happened to the idea of using a good broom?  Real cheap, and works on manpower.

Good news: the even larger pignut hickory up at the end of the driveway is dropping nuts that may be fertile and will germinate.  SD (or whoever), if you want some let me know.  I've been collecting them.

Hope that comment doesn't negatively influence my chances of receiving some pignuts. 

[Lanier_Lurker]

Naw, the broom won't get it either.  The stuff settles into the gaps between the deck boards.

I have to use a screwdriver or ice pick to get it (depending on the size of the gap).

Very annoying. 

OH!

Super dooper bonus question: Can anyone identify the green leaf in the foreground?  I'm talking about the one on the right, not the chewed up one on the left.

 

[WDH]

LL, that is a harsh test (from the pic).  With such little data to go on, I would ask if the stipular scars completly encircle the twig .  Or do you have a twig .  Magnolia acuminata .

[Lanier_Lurker]

Yep, not much to go on with that pic.

A hint:

When crushed it is pleasantly fragrant.  In fact, a spice is made from these leaves.

[WDH]

Sassafras albidum

[Lanier_Lurker]

Yep, that is it.

I may do a thread on these later.  This leaf is from the only mature sassafras tree I have, and I am very concerned about it.  I'm afraid it is being slowly but surely shaded to death by some oaks and yellow poplars.  I have another mature sassafras that died about 5 years ago for that very reason - and it is still standing.  They don't seem to be as shade tolerant as sourwood.

I should cut it down and see how well it works for smoking meat before it rots.

[WDH]

Sorry to hear about the little tree .

[Lanier_Lurker]

Uh, this one just got a little more complicated. 

This tree is right at the end of my driveway, so I glance at it every evening when I get home from work (which is in the daylight now finally.....). 

The same limb that had the 5 leaflet leaf last year (shown earlier in the post) has some 7s on it this year.  Then I took a closer look and noticed that *most* of the leaves on the tree are 7s this year.  SO....

WDH's observation about hairy vs smooth rachis in Frank's post (http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,23658.0.html) gave me something else to look at.  These leaves are near the ground so close examination is possible.

They are, as WDH put it, "smooth as a baby's bottom".

To be more certain that I know what "smooth as a baby's bottom" means when comparing rachis(s) on hickories, I went to a known mockernut and looked at it.  Sure enough, it is quite wooly and distinctly different from these.

But, would a hickory with mostly 7s (with smooth rachis) on it be a pignut, or do I possibly have a red hickory here?  Or, since this tree is shaded quite a bit by larger trees could that trigger a greater incidence of 7s?

Unfortunately, the tree is only about 3 inches dbh so examining the bark may be useless.  And, it is not old enough to produce nuts yet either.

Here are some new pictures.

[Dodgy Loner]

Many of the dendrologists I know (including yours truly and both of my dendrology professors) don't consider red hickory to be a distinct species, and simply lump it together with pignut hickory.  The two simply integrade too much to place many of the specimens in either category.  Your specimen is a perfect example of this.

[Lanier_Lurker]

So, do any of the following synonyms align with your way of thinking?  Sounds like perhaps the first one does - simply a variant of glabra?

Or, not a formally recognized variant at all?

Carya glabra var. odorata
Carya ovalis var. mollis
Carya ovalis var. obcordata
Carya ovalis var. obovalis
Carya ovalis var. odorata

[Dodgy Loner]

Yes, I consider red hickory to be a variety of pignut (ie, Carya glabra var. odorata).  However, one of my dendro professors simply considered the entire group to be a single species, as he claimed they integrated too much in some areas to warrant breaking them up into different varieties.  Although my view is not quite that extreme, I do think that whoever came up with all of the distinct varieties of red hickory that you list must have had an overactive imagination.  Oftentimes morphological differences among different populations are more correctly attributed to site differences, rather than genetic variability.

[WDH]

Back in the Pleistocene Era when I took Dendrology, Red Hickory and Pignut Hickory were listed as distinctly different species.  Today, I consider Red Hickory to be a scaly Pignut.  Most of what I learned as Red Hickory has scaly bark (not shaggy like shagbark, just distinctly scaly).  Prototypical Pignut has tight bark.  But, like Dodgy says, there are several intergrades.   

That is a nice 7-leaflet Red Pignut . 

[Lanier_Lurker]

Well, it sounds like the "mostly 5s with occasional 7s" rule for pignut may not be hard and fast.  This tree, this year, is mostly 7s.  But if the smooth rachis is in fact the key characteristic, then it is a pignut.

I have another one up by the house with the same exact characteristics, but with much smaller sun leaves.

I also have a mockernut that was almost entirely 9s last year, but this year it is mostly 7s with just a handful of 9s.

I guess there is always something to learn. 

Perhaps Frank should double check his transplanted hickory for smooth vs wooly rachis?  He could have a pignut after all.

Another question: in terms of lumber quality, would pignut and mockernut be about equal - or is one generally considered better (e.g., on equal site quality and/or being of equal size/form).

BTW, my pignut seeds took a lot longer to germinate than the mockernut, which in turn took a lot longer than the various red oak species (which sprouted like weeds).  I potted 14 pignuts on Sunday.  Those little suckers are a lot of work.  They are extremely hard to de-husk, and the majority of them did not sink (when float tested last fall).  And with the ones I kept, the germination rate is not as good as with the mockernuts.

I should have some pictures of my makeshift tree nursery soon on the other thread.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,30816.0.html)

[Dodgy Loner]

All of the "true hickories"  - mockernut, pignut, shagback, and shellbark - are considered to have wood that is slightly better than the "pecan hickories" - pecan, bitternut hickory, and water hickory.  I use them interchangeably, though, because they are all very hard and very strong.

[WDH]

Of the "true hickories" shagbark is probably the most desired for lumber products, but it is not the most common.  Pignut and mockernut are more prevalent.  However, in the right forest conditions, pignut and mockernut produce some high quality, clear sawlogs.

It seems that hickory lumber has become more popular, especially for cabinets.

[SwampDonkey]

I'd be careful of pubescence to, when it comes to sun and shade leaves. Depending on the location in the crown or canopy there may or may not be those little hairs. I know black cherry doesn't have hairs all the time on every leaf sample.


But I suspect those hairs on some hickory species are a throw back to the oily hairs on butternut and walnut.

[WDH]

The rachis is quite hirsute in mockernut and many of the other hickories .