Look what Kickback can do......

[KiwiCharlie]

G'day guys,

Thought I would post a picture of what kickback can do to the frail human body.
Then thought better of it and decided to put it in as a link so you get the choice to view it or not.
Its from the NZ OSH web-site, and it is graphic (although not that bad).  Also note what appears to be immediate bruising bottom left and top right.
You choose....
Work Safe, and keep an eye on where the tip of your bar is.
Cheers
Charlie

http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/kidz/gore/kickback.shtml

[Kevin]

Most don`t live to tell about it.
Everyone should carry a picture like that in their saw box as a reminder.
I took a guy to the hospital a few years ago that sunk his chain into the top of his knee while brushing a trail.
Not a pretty sight.

[Tom]

That's pretty impressive KiwiCharlie

The last one I heard about around here was killed.  He was standing on a ladder using one hand to limb a tree.

Saws are too dangerous to take them for granted.  There was a carpenter here about a year ago who cut a stud with his circular saw while holding the wood in his hand.  The saw cut an artery in his thigh and he died before help could arrive.

[Corley5]

A kid, 22 or 23 years old, from Vanderbilt Mi was killed last week when the saw he was running kicked back and cut his throat.  He made it the 100 yards back to the truck and grabbed a t-shirt to try to stop the bleeding before he died.  I know the guys he was working for and one of them walked around the truck saw him the with bloody shirt and then he fell over dead.  He had been warned before that chainsaws weren't toys and to hold on to them tight.  He had developed a habit of not wrapping his thumb around the handle bar.  Sounds like they should have fired him rather than telling the the right way to do it.    

[Ron Scott]

I was told about that incident in the woods today, but didn't know any details other than a cutter had cut his throat with a chain saw and died. Others had heard it on the news, but no details.

Thanks for filling us in. The picture presented is very timely with this incident.

[Kevin]

Here`s another ...
http://www.unionleader.com/articles_show.html?article=3621

[KiwiCharlie]

G'day Guys,

When a major artery is cut and the heart is pumping hard through panic, it cant take long to pump out too much blood to survive.  Any doctors on the forum?....
I started using saws very young (through a mixture of parents splitting, and remote living).  I basically taught myself the theory from a Homelite saw manual, and went out and started felling!  When I look back now on some of the things I cut and did with a saw, it honestly sends a cold shiver through me.
I must have had a guardian angel looking over me.
Now with the training and the experience (and memories), I have a very[/b] great respect for saws.  It helps keep you healthy!
Pictures like this are not very nice to look at, but if its the closest you come to an injury like this, then its worth a look.
Work Safe.
Cheers,
Charlie.

[Gordon]

We have all done some not so smart moves with saws and by the grace of God lived to tell about it.

Now let me ask a question to you all. How many of you wear safety equipment on a REGULAR basis? Chaps, hardhat, eyeprotection, safety boots.

If your not you should be. Can't be stressed enough how dangerous a saw is. Chaps do no good if they are sitting behind the seat of the truck and thats a fact.

Gordon

[Corley5]

I ALWAYS wear a hardhat.  A 4" DBH dead elm fell on me once and if I hadn't had a hardhat on it surely would have killed me.  As it was it fractured the seventh vertebrae in my neck, separated my shoulder, sprained an ankle and my ear required 13 stitches to be re-attached.  The ear lobe injury was from the hardhat suspension that was forced over  my ear and then sprung back taking part of my ear with it.  Still much better than a split skull.  Otherwise I wasn't hurt too bad .
Don't forget the ear protection!  Chainsaws are rough on hearing.

[KiwiCharlie]

G'day Gordon,

When I am felling I wear a helmet with all the attachments, but not while limbing etc.  Just muffs.
I always wear chaps and also cut resistant boots.  As a youngster I took out a chunk of big toe while wearing gumboots!
Back then I wasnt worried (didnt even think of it) about muffs, and I think that is coming back to bite me now.  Starting to find hearing certain tones a bit harder.  The one item I dont wear regularly is eye protection.  Find it restricts vision too much, gets sweaty, foggy etc.  Poor excuses I know.
Cheers
Charlie.

[Tom]

Hey kiwi Charlie,

I have heard of a full face helmet, like a hardhat with a full plastic face shield,  That has a battery powered fan in the top of the helmet that purges the air from in front of the your face.  This keeps the shield from fogging and I think prescription glasses as well.  I think I have seen it in conjunction with equipment for turners and people using sanders in a closed shop.  Where to find one I don't know but if I can think of where I saw it I'll holler.

[Aussie]

I wear steel capped boots, safety glasses, ear muffs and gloves. I haven't been doing any falling and don't have a hard hat. Do you wear a hard hat when your not falling. Also I don't have any cut resistant pants and was wondering do most people prefer pants or chaps.

[KiwiCharlie]

G'day Aussie,

I prefer the chaps as they give me more freedom of movement.  I found pants to be restrictive and hot over jeans etc.  If you wear them all day, then they need to be comfy!!  Otherwise they just stay in the back of the ute.
Tom.  If that helmet design wasnt too heavy or bulky it would work well.  I think Ive seen them a few years ago, and the fan pack attached to the belt and fed air up through a hose.  Might be obsolete nowadays with the size of batteries etc.
Oh yeah, I wear gloves too for the vibration.  That Raynauds affliction doesnt sound good.....
Cheers,
Charlie.

[Don P]

I'm curious. How many years have you guys been holding saws on a full time basis,and about how many hours per week? Any carpal tunnel syndrome?

[KiwiCharlie]

G'day Don,

I have been on the end of saws for almost 20 years now (surprised myself when I actually stopped and added it up!), but not full time.
In my late teens/early twenties I used them a bit, averaging probably 20 hours/week ,with no repetitive strain injuries.  Young bodies and all that?
Any full time loggers out there?
I find my back gives me more trouble than anything else, and honestly, I get more wrist problems from the mouse on the computer than from chainsaws!!
Cheers
Charlie.

[Ron Wenrich]

I have some repetitive motion problems with my shoulder.  It comes from using the log turner in the booth.  Sometimes it goes all the way to my wrist.  If it was my left arm, I'd think it was heart problems.

We had one old logger around here that never wore any type of protective gear.  He was lucky to never been hurt too bad.  But, he was pretty hard of hearing and had been for quite a few years.

They found that farmers seem to be deaf in only one ear.  It comes from turning your head to watch your equipment in the rear.  The exhaust pipe goes right into the other ear.

I've always worn ear protection.  I think it has helped me as compared to others in the same line of work who haven't used it.

I don't wear steel tips.  When I cut in the woods, I always wore a ding hat.  Saved my head on several occasions.

Most saws now have the anti-kickback feature.  That has probably lessened the amount of accidents.

[ken]

I always wear steel toe boots, gloves, and a full protection helmet with muffs and mesh face shield. For those who haven't tried that type of helmet, I can't say enough good about it. They're only about $35 US and available from most of the net suppliers. There is never a problem with obscured vision and both the shield and the muffs can be flipped up on top of the helmet when not needed.

The other day I was on a commercial site clearing and the OSHA guy came over and asked if I had been alerted to the fact he was coming that day. He loved the helmet.

[Tom]

Ken,

My wife just bought me one of those to use with my portable sawmill.  It is in an unopened box in my truck right now and I can hardly wait to use it.  It will really come in handy when the wind is blowing the sawdust back in my face.

I am not sure about the heat nor the ear muffs.  I find that I use the sound of the engine to determine how the saw is cutting and this may inhibit that.

[L. Wakefield]

   When I bought my Husky I also got 2 of those safety hats with the mesh and the ear muffles. Woulda been great units if they hadn't fallen right apart. They weren't any $35- I think they were a low price knockoff.  lw

[Don P]

I hear that, it's the same thing that came with my mill. In the shops we wore gear, as I've gone out on my own I've gotten slack. So,Ken where do ya order a good one?

[KiwiCharlie]

G'day Tom,

Dont worry about the muffs blocking the tones of the saw cutting.  I can still easily hear the difference in the cut, and I have the top-notch "A" rated Peltor muffs which block out the most noise.  They just take the harshness off it.
Cheers
Charlie.

[timberbeast]

Carpal tunnel,  BIG Time,  Don.  Only hurts at night,  but my hands get numb just from holding a pencil sometimes.  As far as protective equipment,  I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it would definitely incriminate me.

[L. Wakefield]

   And on the subject of sore joints- consider the muscle/joint at the base of your thumb- it's called the thenar eminence. It is one of the most mobile- and most often-used- joint of your body. In my ongoing 'adventures with arthritis' I've gotten to the point where that baby aches even when I'm just writing- and as a nurse and emt I write a lot. So then I buy the little sickle bar mower (qv) and lo you have to squeeze these handle all the time to keep her under control. It's called 'use it or lose it'- I'm using it. :-/lw

[Don P]

I guess what brought that to mind was a discussion I had with Dad awhile back. He was wondering why all us pups were getting carpal tunnel. I didn't have any real answers,I think they labored as hard but we get more done ie more repetition with faster,harder banging,more vibrating tools. M. has cts in both hands now, has the painful variety, got operated on in the right (her dominant hand) to no avail. Have heard of better luck in the numbing variety. I've got it in the left(my dominant). The reason I was curious of loggers is you guys are almost all vibration(I think). We pound and vibrate about equally, so was wondering how you hold up.

That thumb does talk too generally when we hit receptical row on the cabins and I chisel all day.Generally the timely application of chilled aluminum at the end can still calm it tho.

Sorry KC,realized I've tangled yet another thread.

[Ron Scott]

Had surgery for carpal tunnel on the right wrist in 1984. Sawing brought it on bad. It's been fine since then with a lot of hard use, but now getting treated for the left wrist.

[CHARLIE]

I'm not a sawyer or logger but I do have arthritis pretty bad so I figure I can contribute somewhat.  I firmly believe that the position you might constantly hold your hands/wrist, repetitive motion and vibration causes carpel tunnel.  I know that people on our manufacturing floor get carpel tunnel from using those air powered tools to drive screws and nuts. When they pull the trigger, it will torque to the right. They use them all day without a break.  And like Don P, the base of my left thumb is REALLY tender.  I used to take Tylenol Arthritis (650 mg slow release) which helped somewhat but now take Celebrex that works better in some spots. What is interesting is that it doesn't touch the pain in some joints but helps it in others.  Go Figure :-/   Anyway, I assume that when using chainsaws, you would be holding your wrist and fingers a certain way for long periods of time and then there's the constant vibration.

TOM, USE THEM DANGED EARMUFFS!!! I'M YELLING 'CAUSE YOU'RE HARD OF HEARING!!   I have earmuffs I use in the shop. They reduce the noise to a nondamaging level, but I can still hear my radio (neighbors probably can too). I think you will still be able to hear the sounds of the motor OK even with the muffs on.  You might be surprised at what you can still hear with 'em on.

[Jeff]

Wear em Tom, or you won't be able to hear what you need to hear anyway. My hearing has really went downhill and I am only 39 (for a few more precious days!) I know exactly what your talking about, with the subtle changes in the sounds of your machine, this is especially so with a circular sawmill. But I now wear earplugs in my sawbooth. Parts of my hearing have been effected that now, some sounds cause pain. I can still hear what I need to hear, and that includes my radio.

I had my ears tested at a free test at a sporting goods store last year. They wanted to know how many years I had been trap shooting without hearing protection, because the damage I had was exactly like they see from that. Some frequencies are totally gone. One of the reasons I have a heck of a time hearing my son, and why ya'll might have trouble hearing certain individuals but not others.

[Tom]

Thanks Jeff,

I think we all should encourage each other when it comes to our health.  I just hope I'm in as good a shape as you are when I get to be your age.

Seriously, I need to wear something. I have noticed a great degradation in my hearing since I was in the Navy.  A Sonarman depends on his ears and I could hear a pin drop at a thousand feet ::)but not anymore.

Some sounds hurt my ears now too.....Rap music for instance or the heavy bass boom boxes installed in the trunks of youngsters cars.  Why they think I need to feel that is beyond me. If I had to lose a range of hearing I wish it had been that one. 

What I miss are the subtle sounds in the forest.  I will sit for long periods hoping that some of them will come back and imagining what they sounded like.  I think I can hear them if I concentrate but don't know if it is true or my imagination.  

I turn the TV up too loud, the truck radio up too loud, talk too loud, say "what" to many times and still forget to wear ear protection.  

I'm going to change.

Charlie, the beginning of my hearing loss was the high pitched whine of the fans in the computer room.  Years of that has me yelling at everybody.  This sawmill is just topping it off.

[CHARLIE]

I lost quite a bit of my hearing when I worked for the railroad. If you think the whistle and bell are loud, ya oughta sit inside the steel cab of the engine when they're blown and rung.  I was just a youngun at the time and the old time railroaders just sat there as if there was no noise and it was painful to my ears. So, 'cause I didn't want to be classified as a whimp, I literally gritted my teeth and endured it. It never occured to me that those old railroaders were already dang near deaf.  Now....I have a sweetwife that has a voice that is in one of the tones I don't hear very well. She's ALWAYS telling me, "I told you that." or "How many times do I have to tell you?"    

[Timber_Tramp]

Hi There, I read most of the posts on this thread and thought I would throw in my 2 cents.
I have some whitefinger ( Renauds Disease), from using a saw to make my living in the woods for the last 20 years, but it is not very debilitating. I have just lost a bit of dexterity, such as in hand writing, in spite of a severe chainsaw laceration to my left wrist which required the skills of a neurosurgeon in 1981, who specialized in chainsaw injuries only.
Although most dont realize it, our mental, physical and emotional  state is more responsible for keeping us safe than the gear we wear. Over confidence is also a killer.
 Of the 6 lost time injuries that I have had in the woods in the last 20 years, I would say, as I look back on it now, that my mind wasnt on the job and I was bothered by something at the time. Most injuries are the result of "high balling", working to fast. So combine the two and we have an accident looking for a place to happen.
If I could only choose one arcticle of personal safety equipment it would hearing protection. I plain and simply cant use a saw without using Peltor muffs and never could.
 The best assurance against injury in the woods, is to be happy, comfortable, relaxed and aware.
Knock on Wood, and send me some Lumber!
John Lambert

[Tom]

I agree, John, concentration is the best safety device.  I think that youth has a mind too fast to allow it and age has a mind to cluttered to control it.

If I had been concentrating on the job at hand the other day, I wouldn't have driven past 3 expressway exits and gone 30 miles out of my way on the way to work at a site practically in my backyard.  

I don't know what was on my mine but it wasn't driving.  Perhaps I was more aware of the road than I remember and would have avoided an accident, but I was not aware of where I was until it was too late and I was on a long bridge approach across the St. Johns.

An analogy might be, thinking about doing such a good job making a felling cut that you don't notice the Grizzly sniffing the pemmican in your back pocket.

[Jeff]

All true, BUT, the safety equipment is there for the days that you are NOT in perfect mental condition,  or your working conditions may NOT be perfect.  A positive attitude towards your work, and being experienced doing what you do is NOT an excuse for failure to wear the proper safety gear.

[Tom]

That's correct.

[Timber_Tramp]

Absolutely! Safety gear is a definate requirement but should not give a false sense of security.
There is no shortage of ways to get hurt. Fear is also a killer, if not heeded correctly. When the adrenalin replaces the fear, anything can happen.
 Safety First, and dont push yourself beyond your capabilities, and you will surely have 9 lives. Just as importantly, dont allow others to put you into a dangerous situation. Watch out for yourself and the other guy at the same time.This is your best defence.
John

[L. Wakefield]

   I learned the hard way about the pressure from 'the other guy'. They aren't subtle- I don't know if they want money faster, or if they want to see you hurt- but now I TAKE THE TIME to put on my safety gear. I have just gotten too fond of my own comfort and safety. The last time I let myself be pressured on this, I was working on a fishing boat, and it was time to climb out on one of the booms and change some light bulbs. I'd checked to make sure the power was turned off, cuz we're talking halogen bulbs in a very picky fixture- about 30ft above a swaying deck. There was a safety belt there, but my boss (also my husband) was 'too busy' to show me how to wear it. So up I went, and took out the old bulb- and put in the new one- which lit right up1 The fixture was still electrically active! (wires and switches used to fail all the time, from vibration and corrosion- as often freezing in the 'on' position as in the 'off' position- or sometimes they were wired backwards too. It was a real weird job..) I almost fell off from surprise, and I feel I was very lucky indeed that I hadn't been shocked. I know enough from fire training to find a position to lock my body in to decrease the chance of falling off.

  But I was *pithed for days at the lack of proper safety training- *pithed at the boss, *pithed at myself. I can't make him change- but I sure changed, and so did my trust level. You DON'T want to be violating safety measures around me. I continue to get pressure from people who think caution is stupid. They don't get far with me.        lw

[Jim Spencer]

I wear the full face shield hat with hearing muffs.
I got mine from the Stihl dealer.
I like it a lot.  Also it does not prevent you from listening to the saw.  It only reduces the sound and I find I hate to use my 066 without it.
paid about 30 35 dollars.
Jim

[CHARLIE]

A few weeks ago we had some high winds here in Minnesota. I don't remember what city this incident happened but a Lineman was up on a ladder trimming a fallen limb from a powerline with a chainsaw when a car lost control and hit his ladder causing the chainsaw to cut him pretty badly.

Also, Tom, I noticed that Woodcraft now sells some electronic earmuffs. They cost around $70 and have a Microphone and speaker in them. Anything less than 85 decibles and the earmuffs don't deaden the sound, but if a noise goes over 85 decibles, it muffles the sound to about 2 decibles if I remember right. This is a pretty good idea, especially when you need to hear other people talking.

[Kevin]

Lineman was up on a ladder trimming a fallen limb from a powerline with a chainsaw when a car lost control and hit his ladder

I hate it when that happens.
I always park my truck in front of my ladder, they really have to take a good run at me then.  

[RobK]

When it comes to the number one piece of safety equipement, my vote has to go to eye protection. If you don't wear hearing protection, the worst that's going to happen is going deaf. While this is bad, I think blindness is a lot worse. You can still drive and use a chainsaw if you're deaf, but not if you're blind. I always wear both eye and ear protection when shooting, using a chainsaw, or even bushhogging. In fact if I'm going to be doing a lot of cutting with a chainsaw, I wear ear plugs and muffs. My grandpa is almost stone deaf from years of chainsaws, sawmilling, and shooting so I have a good example of what not to do.

[Tom]

Good note.  I have worn glasses since I was 5 and don't think about eye protection as much as maybe I should.  I have worn case hardened lenses and plastic lenses all my life and treat them as safety glasses.  Putting on more safety glasses over these wouldn't be a bad idea but I never think of it.  

Hearing protection is something I've ignored for years until just recently.  When your hearing starts to go you realize how much you miss it.  Computers got mine but the chainsaw and sawmill and tractor hasn't helped any.  I now am the proud owner of a hardhat with screen and ear muffs.  A gift from my wife who spends a good deal of time wagging her finger at me.  

[L. Wakefield]

   Glasses plus safety goggles are a definite good combo. I learned about that from steel work. A high-speed grinder will flip bits of slag into your eye quite well with regular glasses on. After they took the bits out of the eye, I made a habit of wearing the goggles.  lw

[whitepe]

Last summer (sept 2001) I went out along my driveway to
trim off a couple of limbs from a dead osage orange
tree.  Limbs were about head high and I reached up with
a small limbing saw. One limb was about 5 feet long
and weighed about 50-60 pounds. When it was fully cut off
the limb brushed the main trunk on it's way down and the
limb flipped into my arms. Couldn't hold it and saw so
the saw came down across the front of my left ankle
sawing through my 6 inch high leather boots.
went to hospital and got 10 stitches.  A month later
the ankle got badly infected and I spent 6 days 5 nights
in the hospital.  $7000 hospital bill.
On my way home from the hospital
I stopped by my local chainsaw shop and picked
up my kevlar boots and pants. I won't saw without them now.
However, what kinds of protective equipment would protect
against a kickback that caused the neck injury?

[Kevin]

To prevent kickback use a sharp chain, high rpm and don`t cut with the tip.
Keep both hands on the saw and keep your forward arm rigid, fingers and thumb wrapped around the handle bar and never use a chainsaw above your shoulders.
Wear an approved hardhat with face shield and safety glasses.
Look beyond where you`re cutting and always be aware of potential hazards.
Safety chains with bumper links or drivers that help prevent kickback are also available.

[Ron Scott]

Had surgery for carpal tunnel done in the left wrist Tuesday in VA Hospital, Saginaw, MI. Couldn't wait any longer, but 18 years after the right wrist.

Sure was sore Tuesday night, couldn't even push a computer key, but feeling better now. The arm is waking up. Stitches to come out next Thursday.

It will be a little hard timber marking for awhile though.

[Kevin]

Ron, I would have done that for you for half the price.  
Hope it heals up quick, take it easy.

[CHARLIE]

I mentioned these before, but noticed that Woodcraft (www.woodcraft.com) now has these Electronic Hearing Protectors on sale. I think they are a Dang good idea for those people that need to hear others talk while still wearing Hearing Protectors.

Over & Out Electronic Hearing Protectors
($59.99, $5 dollars off the regular price)
Sale ends August 31, 2002
Sound is received by a microphone and sent to speakers in each ear cup via a control circuit. Normal hearing is allowed until 85 decibels, at which point the smart circuitry instantly defaults to an NRR 28 rating. When noise goes below 85 Db., normal hearing is restored. With the Over & Out muffs, you can leave your ear protection on and still have normal conversations when noise levels are safe. The off/volume control allows you to actually turn up the volume for enhanced hearing. No more accidental scares or having to yell or lift your ear protection for conversation. Requires two AA batteries, not included.  Woodcraft product # 143062. Regular price is $64.99.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And no.....I don't work for or own stock in the Woodcraft company or the company that makes this hearing protector. I just figured some one might be interested. It seems like a great idea.

[rebocardo]

Well, that picture convinced me of two things. Not to switch to pro chain until I have used low kick back for more than a year and to get those chaps!