Making my own flooring

[scgargoyle]

I think this is the right forum for this question- What are the steps to follow, and timetable, for making flooring from my own timber? We are going to build in SC in a couple years, and I will have a number of good-sized red oaks to work with, so I'm thinking of making my own flooring, among other things. Assuming I saw it green, will air drying suffice? How long should it dry? I know about stickering and sealing the ends. Is it worth trying to plane 1500 sq. ft with an inexpensive planer, or should I haul it to someone to have it planed? I have a table saw and a shaper; I assume I can size it and T&G it with those. Do you prefinish the flooring, or go ahead and install it, then apply a finish? Thanks for any input!

[Tom]

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=20264.msg289448#msg289448

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=post;topic=25554.0;num_replies=0

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=24354.0

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=24038.0

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=21516.0

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=24850.0

Here's a start.  It's just a few of the 5 pages of threads in the last 300 days talking about flooring.  There's lots of stuff back there.  Use the Search.

Put Flooring in the Search For: box
Go to Message age, on the right side and replace the 9999 with 300 (that will limit you to a smaller number of days to search).  Zero in the from box is today.

Go to the bottom of the page and check "check all".  that will uncheck all of the topics.  Then go check sawmilling and drying and processing.   That way you will only search those topics and it will keep the volume down.

Then hit search.
Click on a topic to go look at it and use your back button to get back to the search page until your are through with it.

[scgargoyle]

Thanks- Tom! I rarely get on this particular forum, so I didn't realize that flooring was such a busy topic. So far, I've determined that I would either need to make my own 'kiln' w/ a dehumidifier, or sticker the wood inside the house for a while. The moisture content kinda scares me, since we are pretty cheap about running the A/C unless absolutely necessary, and SC is certainly humid. My mother's house had the oak flooring buckle from too much humidity. Maybe I'll just lay down some linoleum....

[Steven A.]

I've thought of doing the same thing but I concluded that I would be much farther ahead buying the flooring. The hours I'd spend doing all that work in an inefficent manner would be better spent on other things.

Even if I counted my time at minimum wage my homemade flooring would be much more expensive than what I could buy it for.

Its almost like trying to save money by making your own automobile from scratch.

[TexasTimbers]

I have to respectfully disagree Steven. There are way too many variables to make such a flat statement as that.
And it also depends on what your goal is. Being able to say "The flooring you are standing on was processed by me all the way from the cutting down the tree to the final coat of finish . . ." Well you can't buy that satisfaction at any store at any price.

Plus, when you consider then variety of species, the quantity, the grade, and the outright rarity of some of the species going in our home, some of which you can't buy as flooring period, then it doesn't hold true.

But if your object is just to get a decent looking but bland run-of-the-mill flooring then buy the laminated stuff and be done with it.

[Tom]

I was going to say the same thing that Kevjay said,  except for the "buying the laminated stuff" part.

You can make good flooring in a house just by air-drying and then acclimating it to the life it will spend inside.  It's not the fastest way to get the job done, but you can sure  end up with a pretty floor.  As a matter of fact, we have threads where flooring wasn't even tongue and grooved.  It was butt jointed and had been straight line ripped with a skill saw and a jig.  A good underfloor is neccessary anyway you go.  Look for the thread on the floor at the Satilla Lodge in Georgia.  I cut 20+ inch boards that made 20 inch flooring.  It developed some cracks between the boards from shrinkage, because it was laid too quickly, but, it still made a pretty floor and dust, etc., grouted the cracks.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If you just want a floor, you can buy all kinds of stuff.  If you want to make a statement, do it yourself.  Not everybody has the sawmill or the gumption to make their own.  If someone doesn't like the crack in the floor, tell'm, "I did that on purpose".   What the heck, it's your floor. 

[TexasTimbers]

Well I am being sort of cheeky with the laminated remark Tom. That stuff ain't really flooring in my book.

[Steven A.]

I agree satisfaction is worth something.... but so is your time. I'd get much more satisfaction spending that time with my family or using the skills I have more productively in some fashion
Consider this.......very nice red oak flooring is available in long pieces at about $3.50 a sq. foot. $5250.00 total. Ready to install. Other species a little more or less.
To do it yourself you will have to cut trees, limb trees, skid logs, saw into lumber, sticker, stack, dry for a long time, [should have kiln dried] move, plane, sort, t&g, cut out defect, throw out waste, a lot of waste from tree to floor.  You will end up buying some equipment you might only use once. Oh yes,..... you need to find some inside space to dry and store all this. A lot of space.

How much time and expense so far?

You ask the very basic questions about finishing before or after installation. You did not mention sanding. A VERY neccesary step.  There is a lot more to flooring than you may
 have thought about.  [Defects in sanding you see forever unless you resand. Its harder than it looks.]

If you have any skill that you can sell I think you would be farther ahead earning the money, then buying flooring, maybe installing it yourself, then hiring the sanding.
Finishing is easy to do yourself.  "Traffic" finish by Bona Kemi is a great finish thats easy to do and wears like steel.

I like to do things myself as much as possible but there are times when it just makes good sense to earn money doing what YOU know how to do and have the tools for and and hiring folks to do what THEY know how to do and have the tools for.
I'm not saying its a BAD idea, I AM saying there are a lot of things to consider.....

Food for thought.

[TexasTimbers]

Well I respect your opinion Steve.

If you didn't own any of the equipment or have any of the skills or desire to do it out of a pride of ownership standpoint, and had to acquire these tangible and intangible things just for the one project maybe it would not make sense from a purely economic standpoint. But that's all. Your viewpoint does not consider some of the things important to others, so you cannot judge whether or not it is worth it for someone else. That's all I am saying.

It is the same for people who set records. Some people spend hours and hours to enter what is called "The World's Fastest Drummer Competition". I am a drummer and a prettty darn good one, but I would not spend one minute of my practice time focusing my excersizes soley on the fast twitch muscles in my fingers to try and win this competition (which I believe is over 1100 single strokes in 60 seconds) because it makes no sense to me. I can however understand why they do it because they want to be the "fastest" drummer in the world. It doesn't mean they can "Get in the pocket and follow a groove" or improvise as well as other drummers.

Same with making your own flooring. Some sawyers think it is a great idea since they already have most or all of the equipment, and some sawyers would rather buy the run-of-the-mill yucky stuff so they can spend more time with their family, or their ant farm.

[WDH]

I got my sawmill too late to do flooring in my house.  I wish now that I had made my own from trees on my property.  I am sure that it would not look as spiffy and professional as what you can hire done, but it would be mine.  To me, it is the kind of thing that you do once, so efficiency is not the main goal.  If you had to do it over and over again, you couldn't compete with the big flooring manufacturers.  But, to do it once can create memories and tradition that last a lifetime.

[Steven A.]

Kevjay.....
You said, " and some sawyers would rather buy the run-of-the-mill yucky stuff so they can spend more time with their family, or their ant farm. "

 Just because I buy from someone else does not mean the quality is " run-of-the-mill yucky stuff "

That  *stuff* from a dedicated flooring mill will very likely be better than anything a homeowner, one time flooring maker will produce.

And.. for those who do not know me... I don't have a flooring mill or even anything remotely related.
I'm only in the wood business as a customer and once in a great while a recreational logger.

[Furby]

Normally I'd stay out of this.................

That  *stuff* from a dedicated flooring mill will very likely be better than anything a homeowner one time flooring maker will produce.

I TOTALLY disagree with that statement!
I know for a fact that statement is not even close to being true!

[metalspinner]

No reason you can't have it both ways.  I am stockpiling QS RO for flooring and paneling for the home and future shop.  I collected logs, hired out the sawyer, dryed it in a solar kiln that I built, then will bring it to a mill to have it made into flooring and paneling.  Jointing, planing, and milling several thousand BF of oak is not what I would call enjoyable, so I will hire that out. I know I will get great looking flooring because of the care I took from the beginning of the process.  Where else can I get 6" and 8" wide QS flooring for a nominal sawing and milling charge?  This type of flooring is a luxury that I would never be able to afford otherwise.  My enjoyment comes from the process of seeing trees turn into a useful and usable product, even though I didn't actually do some of the steps.

[Steven A.]

 For  Furby............

In a 60 mile radius of me I can buy flooring from 6 mills.  Mostly Amish but not all.  The quality at all of them is top notch.  
At this moment I'm sitting on a fine ash floor made by one of them.
In my bedroom 20 feet away is a very nice cherry floor made by them.
I'm looking at fancy black ash window trim with rosette corners made by the same people.

Not true? Send me your phone #. I'll be happy call you and invite you over to see for yourself.
 

Normally I'd stay out of this.................

That  *stuff* from a dedicated flooring mill will very likely be better than anything a homeowner one time flooring maker will produce.

I TOTALLY disagree with that statement!
I know for a fact that statement is not even close to being true!

[Furby]

What's not true is your use of a wide brush saying a do it yourselfer can't match run of the mill in quality.
Run of the mill is just that!
I've seen many, many floors done by do it yourselfers that are so far above the quality of run of the mill, that it would blow your mind. Some of them will never make another floor due to the time/labor involved, but their quality is awesome!
I don't doubt for a second you have some very fine run of the mill wood work.
But saying it is hard to be matched by a do it yourselfer is just plain arrogant.

Around here the Amish are known for their low quality products.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 So are a LOT of flooring installers 

[Steven A.]

But saying it is hard to be matched by a do it yourselfer is just plain arrogant.

Arrogant? I'm not sure why you would say that.
I'm not in the flooring business in any way. I'm just a plain old do it yourselfer who has seen a lot of flooring.

[woodbowl]

  I cut 20+ inch boards that made 20 inch flooring.  It developed some cracks between the boards from shrinkage, because it was laid too quickly, but, it still made a pretty floor and dust, etc., grouted the cracks.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I make a lot of wood bowls and they are as individual as they can be. Most people do the normal overlook, turn it upside down, rub their hands over it to see how it feels and at that point you can almost read their minds through the facial expressions of whether they have a preconcieved opinion or making one as they think about it. Some like the smooth texture, some like the rough. Some want all the knots they can get and some folks don't want any knots. Some folks like lots of character with spalt patterns, Q-sawn areas and irregular shapes. Some folks feel that it must perfect........ what ever that it. Trying to please the public on a standard is impossible because people are as individual as wood.                 

After years of dealing with this personality thing I have decided to offer a limited variety based on what the wood is. If it's a piece of wood that has a lot of flaws ............ Let me rephrase that. If it is a piece of wood that is perfect ............  This can be confusing........ in my opinion, there is no such thing. I know what I like, but that is beside the point and it's just another opinion. Standards change all the time and seem to cycle through the years.

Back in the 20's, 30's and later, the streamlined look was the fad in everything from automobiles to toasters. When the 60's and 70's hit, things started to square up in the  furniture line and automobiles took on the square cornered look. Now in the 21st century, we seem to be in the streamline look again.

When sawing wood, I've grown tired of having to please the picky customer especially when I had no control of how the lumber saws out. I can read the log, flip the cant when stress appears and try to put the shakes in as few boards as possible. No matter how well I trick the log, sometimes the customer decides that my best is just not good enough. I can get bent out of shape about it or be satisfied in knowing that I have done my best.  Somehow in all this, it still seems right to try and be nice about it, after all it's only an opinion.

Tom, how are those wood bowls holding up?

[Tom]

Just as solid as the day I got them. 

I understand the recommendations, they are all valid, but, let's not let this take a personal turn where someone will get their feeling hurt, OK?

Some of the differences, I think have to do with the perspective.  A sawyer is mostly an Artist.  His work generally means more to him than his time.  Some look at it as purely business and aren't concerned with intrinsic value the work carries.  I can see how the user of a product may miss the artistic bent and not consider the personal pride many sawyers have about their work.  It's more than just an item to a sawyer like this. More than just the time it took to saw it, more than just the justifiable effort someone might attribute to it.  You must get inside of his head and see his pride in being able to create, with his own hands, a product from a not-perfect log that came from a not-perfect tree that grew on  his own land and may have been planted by an ancestor.

A user of a product who misses out on these little innuendos, has other priorities.  They are just as valid as the sawyers might seem to be superfluous.   A user of the boards is only generally concerned with the project and producing it as economically as possible.  He hasn't the other things hanging over his head.  Perhaps the one thing we all share is the realization that we are passing on to future generations, the benefit of our handiwork.  A label on a table in the far future may mean more to those who see it if it reads, "Made by Uncle Charlie" than if it reads "Made in China".   The Chinese item may be better built by leaps and bounds, but there isn't the same comfort that comes from touching it that comes from touching the floor that Uncle Charlie made 200 years ago, especially if the history of the wood has been recorded.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for the Chinese table.  If time is of the essence and the priority is a device to accomplish a task with the least expenditure of effort, the retail purchase of the device from a mass marketer makes sense.  If we don't look at both sides of the argument, we don't have the information with which to make a decision. 

Personally, I'll take the handmade stuff, whether better or not, over the mass produced stuff, any day of the week, given a choice. But then, I'm an awfully sentimental curmudgeon too. 

[Dave Shepard]

I think that one would have to look at what kind of flooring they are going to make. Strip flooring out of short pieces? That isn't really a good use of time. The only reason it is so small in the first place is to recover the most wood from lower grade boards. Plank flooring? Well, tht is a different story in my book. The wider you go, the more this is worth a square foot. And it probably doesn't take any more time to plane really wide stuff versus narrow planks. If you can make $15 a square foot flooring, you are getting paid for your time.

You can't buy this at a big box store:

 

Pine plank flooring that will be ripped and jointed to 22" wide.


Dave

[Tom]

I guess I don't value my time as much as most other people.  Perhaps that is a fault, but I love to touch some of the most inane little projects I've taken on.  I have a little stool built by an old customer of mine who spent too much time on it.  It means the world to me because he signed it.  He felt he was using scraps, I like the figure. At minimum wage, he probalby has $250 dollars worth of his labor in it.  It would have been more economical if he had bought one at Wallyworld and given it to me.  But, somehow, it just wouldn't have been the same.

If we judged things only by their material value, we would probably never build anything.

[Dave Shepard]

Tom, I agree, there is not a lot of sentimentality left. I am often questioned why I do things the old way, when a power drill, or a planer is faster. Well, I don't find it rewarding to let a machine do all the work. Keeping the old ways alive is very important to me, and having something that is handcrafted is so much more valuable than something that is mass produced.


Dave

[scgargoyle]

Jeepers Cats! Now, how do I get all these worms back in the DanG can? For me, I'd like to use some of the timber from my land in the house, since some nice oaks are going to have to be sacrificed so I can live there. I'm really into doing things myself, even if I can buy it for less. I make homemade sausage; there's no way I'm saving any money on that. When I made homemade corned beef, I spent more for the beef than I could have bought the store bought stuff. So I guess I'm the sorta wingnut it takes to make his own flooring! The 200 y/o house I grew up in had 12-18" wide chestnut floors (not T&G), laid in two layers with the seams staggered. The gaps from shrinkage were neatly 'caulked' w/ manila rope (the owner and builder was a whaling captain). Now that floor had some character! When I do something for myself, I don't count the labor, so I think I can save some money, scratch my persistent DIY itch, and wind up with a one-of-a-kind floor. I was actually only looking for some technical advice, which Tom graciously linked for me in his first reply. And while we're at it, can y'all think of any other uses for the oak I will harvest? I considered a timber frame, but I don't think I have enough trees that are big enough. I figured flooring was easier than cabinetry, esp. considering I'd rather have a rustic floor anyhow (in contrast to most commercially available flooring).

[WDH]

Tom, that is well said .

Dave Shepard, cut some of that for me .

[Max sawdust]

Scgargoyle,
Sounds like a great idea using that oak for flooring   Buddy of mine did that, I logged it from his land, he hired someone to mill it, dry it and T&G it.  He installed it then hired some one to sand and finish it.  He still saved a ton of money and has a floor that is from his woods and is vastly superior to anything else in his opinion. 
GO FOR IT   Ask questions after you read up on the wealth of info here.

Now for the Dang can of worms
Making something from "scratch" can have many benifits not based on time our quality.  It is my opinion we should celebrate self sufficiency every chance we get.  Doing projects out of your own wood creates a deep sense of pride for many.  So does harvesting your own fish and game for the table, raising a garden, making a quilt.  None of things we can do cheaper than some "cheap" labor in this country or another.  As far as spending time with the kids instead of doing it yourself; I contend it teaches kids good lessons about life and sense of self by involving them in projects such as flooring, or any "do it yourself" thing.  I really feel this country would be better off if more people did things for themselves more often.
I will stop here, I am afraid I could write a book on the subject
If nothing else doing a project yourself allows you to buy the tools required to do the job.  More tools are always better right
Max
Oh ya, the boards that come off my mill and go into my personal stash are just a bit better than mill run

[solodan]

Well said Tom,  ThankYou

[WDH]

And while we're at it, can y'all think of any other uses for the oak I will harvest?

You could make some wainscotting, maybe for a hall.  Here is some I made from oak off my property.  V-grooved it and put it up with a chair-rail.

[Handy Andy]

  I have a cousin who made flooring out of locust, about 4 or5" wide, ran it on edge on his woodmaster.  I saw it and it makes oak look boring.

[solidwoods]

Mill it.
Take it straight to a kiln.
Then either to a shop with a moulder or T/G it yourself.
We charge $1.25 per sq' for logs to flooring.
Oak is not easy to air dry, and its pointless since the wood will need to be dried to 7% average mc any way.  Taking it to a kiln immediately will also reduce drying defects that could be created from air drying improperly.
You could also make extra and sell it to cover costs.

Is making your own flooring worth it?  You bet it is.  Go price qtr sawn 3"-5" wide, long rips.
jim

[tomboysawyer]

Thank you all for this thread.

I have a similar situation. Except that instead of oaks I have to take to clear my property, it is black cherry. I have a number of really sweet veneer logs in my stash and I still have about another acre to clear.

But I'm gonna cut it all into dimensional boards and make 3000 sq ft of flooring out of it. I'll probably have a lot left over.

I've been trying to decide about whether to cut it 6/4 and get it T & G and put a single layer down or cut 4/4 and laying two runs overlapping seams. Certainly, for me, with the equipment I have, keeping the planks with a plain edge would be faster and cheaper for me.

I have some 12" clear, 16' long maple planks I'm putting in my office. I know I just can't buy that anywhere. I could never afford black cherry.

My partner and I love unique things. I could actually make money if I sold the cherry then bought cheaper flooring either from a local mill or from a big box. But it wouldn't be "our" flooring. It wouldn't have come from "our" land.

And I don't know about the timing/expense thing earlier. I bought ash off a doctor who had bought it with some maple from a mill that closed. I paid $1 per board foot and at least 1/3 of it was only good for firewood - not just checking and knots but rot. And I still had to install and sand it. But it is beautiful floor. Hubby and a friend sanded it and did an awesome job.

Tom, as always, has the mindset that attracted me here. If we were all about the most economical way of doing things, we wouldn't build anything.

And those who make their own food, you only have to look at the news of the past year to see the incredible value of actually knowing what you are eating!

And there is value in not importing slave labor for our products.

Please post pictures of your flooring when you have it installed!

[WDH]

I really like the idea of a cherry floor.  For me, that is only a dream because we do not have all that much cherry that makes high grade sawlogs down this way.  I am looking for it all the time.

[Max sawdust]

I've been trying to decide about whether to cut it 6/4 and get it T & G and put a single layer down or cut 4/4 and laying two runs overlapping seams.

 
Nice
I have asked myself the same question.
If you go thick will you be able to see it from both sides?  If that is the case and you have enough that could be super unique and just awesome.
If you will not be able to see the underside, I would use something else for the underlayment and then lay the thinner cherry over the top.

We have very little cherry in my parts.  Just milled a few logs with burls, sure is nice stuff.  It is one of my favorites
max

[tomboysawyer]

I've been trying to decide about whether to cut it 6/4 and get it T & G and put a single layer down or cut 4/4 and laying two runs overlapping seams.

 
Nice
I have asked myself the same question.
If you go thick will you be able to see it from both sides?  If that is the case and you have enough that could be super unique and just awesome.
If you will not be able to see the underside, I would use something else for the underlayment and then lay the thinner cherry over the top.

We have very little cherry in my parts.  Just milled a few logs with burls, sure is nice stuff.  It is one of my favorites
max

Yeppers. You could see it from both sides. I have an insane amount of black cherry logs from clearing.

These came from a small section of my driveway:


These came from my leechfield clearing:


And these came from about a 1/4 acre of future lawn and driveway:
(I was taking pictures for my niece's Flat Stanley project)



I haven't even taken down the largest black cherries in my house site and back yard. There's cherry on this lot over 24"dbh. Such a beautiful wood.

One thing I'm particularly excited about is a pair of very curved cherry logs I've set aside for cross bracing my main beam in the crown post studio I'm building. I'm going to saw two sides and debark the curved sides.

A lot of the cherry is very twisted. I've put a lot in the firewood pile. But I set aside larger chunks to turn bowls out of.

[WDH]

I am so envious of that Vermont cherry, Tomboysawyer .  Things must be very "serotinous" up that far North . 

[tomboysawyer]

I am so envious of that Vermont cherry, Tomboysawyer .  Things must be very "serotinous" up that far North . 

I've read (I believe in Sawmill & Woodlot magazine) that black cherry will only grow in clear fields. My property at the turn of the last century was farmland with a (maple) sugar bush. Some of the fields were left to fallow about 75 years ago and others about 50 years ago. Someone owned the farm without farming it for 25 years and it was then subdivided 27 years ago into building parcels.

I know from the black cherry that borders my current house and hangs over my boat from my neighbor's yard that it isn't so much the serotinous nature of things but the fact that the birds love black cherries (and leaving the lovely stains on all my vehicles most especially my white boat).

I'm sure others can speak to this better than I, but very little timber harvesting in past years was clearcut. Without clearcut, there is no black cherry.

[WDH]

You are exactly right about cherry needing disturbance to thrive as a major component in a stand.  Just open up the area to full light, and the birds will do the job .  For those folks that are against all types of clearcuts, it just goes to show that one size does not fit all in nature. 

[timcosby]

That  *stuff* from a dedicated flooring mill will very likely be better than anything a homeowner, one time flooring maker will produce.

wait till ya see the floor i am going to do!!!!!!!

[timcosby]

most cupping is caused by not sealing the underside of the board....

[WDH]

Tim,

Will it be oak?  Cherry?

[Dodgy Loner]

I'll have to post the pics of the new cherry flooring I installed once I get it sanded and finished.  That way all of y'all can see how much worse it is than the stuff from a dedicated flooring mill.   You probably remember it WDH - it's from the first batch of logs you ever sawed up for us.  I've been getting a lot of mileage out of that stuff over the last 5 years! 

[WDH]

Glad I could be of assistance to a dedicated floor-ist .

[Dodgy Loner]

After spending about four hours sanding the stuff the last two nights, I've decided that being a floor-ist is not the most fun job in the world.  It's gonna be worth it when I put that first coat of varnish on it, though.

[TexasTimbers]

Pain fades with time.

(Anyone who repeats this however, is a ninny).

[WDH]

Yes, pain fades with time .