Author Topic: Solubor and glycol (Read 3725 times)

brdmkr · « **on:** May 04, 2007, 10:59:11 pm »

Has anyone mixed solubor with antifreeze instead of water for treating wood? I found a recipe that uses borax, boric acid, and antifreeze. When I price out the boric acid, it actually gets pretty expensive relative to the solubor. There has been some discussion of the solubor with water, but I have not seen any discussion of using antifreeze with solubor.

I understand that the antifreeze, borax, boric acid mix works better with dry wood, but if the antifreeze somehow alters the chemical composition of the borate, I don't want to destroy the solubor.

The recipe that I have seen uses 1 gallon antifreeze, 4.5 lb borax and 3.5 lb boric acid. This is heated to 260 to drive off water. The resulting mix is then diluted 1:1 with water before application.

I don't have any idea how much soubor to mix with a gallon of antifreeze. Any suggestions?

Would there still be a need to heat to drive off water?

DanG · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2007, 11:06:34 pm »

I kinda sorta don't see the point in "driving off" the water if yer gonna turn around and mix it with water.

Did the recipe give any reason for doing that?

brdmkr · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2007, 11:40:52 pm »

It says

"This removes most of the water of crystalization in the borax".

I suppose if I was starting with a borate, the heat may not be required.

Don P · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2007, 08:19:00 am »

I flunked chemistry ... repeatedly

I think the heat is breaking the bond that holds the borax and boric acid in a crystilline form and lets them get together. Solubor is a wettable powder, I use hot tap water but don't heat the mix.

I use solubor, water and antifreeze mostly when I borate wood. I'm normally dealing with dry or fairly dry wood and the glycol keeps it wet longer. I mix about 1-1.5 lbs of solubor/gallon of water and use between a quart and half gallon of glycol per 5 gal batch.

One thing I've been seeing some confusion on, borates are not poisons or fungicides they are "biostats", below a certain level they are a soil nutrient and necessary for life, we are basically OD'ing the bugs or fungi on them. That slows or interrupts their life processes.

Antifreeze is a poison, treat it and your bucket as such, I try to use the entire batch at once.

brdmkr · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2007, 08:50:11 am »

Thanks Don. That is perzactly what I was looking for. I was reading in another thread that you ha have to treat every year!!! Do you have any experience with that? If I do have to treat annually, it will not be a big deal, financially, with the formulation you have given.

One other thing, do you think the ethylene glycol contributes to ppb control becuase it is a poison? The reason I ask is I was planning on using propylene glycol which supposedly provides the same wetting features, but is less toxic.

Don P · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2007, 10:12:49 am »

One reason I've used ethylene glycol is I think its poisonous to the critters so gives a quick kill, that is totally between my ears.

I saw Reid's comment and have not had to retreat annually, would like to hear more. I did read where one company does heat buildings hot enough, whew!

One old cabin we borated with solubor was severely infested, treated several times while we worked, seemed to knock them way back, I think we saw 2 or 3 active holes the next season and I've not seen more active holes, thats been over a decade I think. If it doesn't leach out its still there and "active". The beetles become involved with the borate when exiting and entering. One we did 3 years ago had 2 active holes that we could find last year, it had a whole lot when we started, the ants, termites and silverfish have not returned, we did have termidor soil applied also. We've always dried the buildings up also, many variables are changed simultaneously, not real scientific, we're trying to stomp the critters

.

I do need to recoat the splash zone on that latest cabin, we had discussed that originally with the owners, they wanted no finish so I told them we would build a slight white coat of crystals and recoat when we saw it wearing, lost gutters in a tree fall and got some splash for awhile.

I'm no authority on it, just been doing what seems to work

.

DanG · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2007, 11:03:24 am »

Don, have you noticed any residual odor when using antifreeze? I hate the smell of antifreeze!

brdmkr · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2007, 11:07:04 am »

Thanks again,

I was thinking that the borate had a residual effect. I am really not too concerned about the toxicity of antifreeze as I think it has to be ingested to be harmful. I don't plan to eat my shop! Your rationale that the ethylene glycol may cause some immediate control makes sense to me (that could be a bad thing!).

I would be interested in the smell issue mentioned by DanG.

I'll call my farm supply and order some solubor Monday.

Thanks again.

Mike

Don P · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2007, 01:18:02 pm »

I've never smelled it after its dry or had anyone mention it, but I can smell some things well before others so it might be something you can notice. Maybe do a board, let it dry and put it in the closet or something for a week with the door closed and check it.

My wife dragged, umm, suggested I accompany her to a wine tasting one time. It was kinda neat, the guy gave us all a pretty bland wine and bottles of concentrated things that can be in wine, tannic acid, sugar, charred oak, etc. I could pick up the oak before anyone else, burning sawblade

.

Warren · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2007, 07:09:03 pm »

Hey guys. When treating the exterior of a structure that is exposed to pets with a glycol solution, how do you keep pets from licking / lapping at the glycol on the surface, or drips below ? My understanding is that Ethylene glycol and the like have a sweet flavor that animals tend to like which results in dead cats and dogs when the glycol turns to oxylate crystals and clogs their kidneys.

Not picking on anyone. I'm just trying to understand how to effectively treat lumber and keep pets from getting hurt at the same time.

Warren

Don P · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2007, 08:49:23 pm »

My pets have not shown interest in it.
With the borates it isn't sweet anymore. I have wondered about me inhaling mist, dunno, but something to think about.

Ironwood · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:56:58 pm »

OK,

So, I am reading this and wondering about treating my stacks with this stuff to decrease the likelyhood of infestations. I would like to be less worried about it over time. I don't keep ash around because the bugs love it so much. I love ash but don't like the short shelf life when stored, the bugs find it quickly. All wood stored outside will eventually be discovered by the little critters. I have had some cherry and walnut around for 8-10 years with no trouble. I have a fairly bombproof storage system for palletized lumber stored outside, the only risk is bugs. I would just like piece of mind for the really nice stuff I would like to keep in inventory for extended periods. Here are some pics of "keeper material" One more question, If I could find used fleet antifreeze do you think it would still work?

Don P · « **Reply #12 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:09:38 pm »

Wow, I thought it was a small shelter till I saw your level

I'm using this after using some chemicals that they now say were pretty nasty, so its looking pretty good. If you're coming from using nothing, well, that's a whole nuther perspective.
I pulled off 4 ticks yesterday, the stuff doesn't seem to be working

.

I've wondered about using used antifreeze, rust/iron stains would be my only concern, don't know.

This is a product description and msds.
http://www.nisuscorp.com/pdfs/boracaremsds.pdf

brdmkr · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2007, 01:17:32 pm »

Don and Reid,

The recipe in the very first post is "SUPPOSED to be" the same as boracare if you use propylene glycol instead of ethylene glycol. I don't have the web page available right now that makes this claim, but if you like I will try to send you the link.

Given that Solubore is about 20% active ingredient, mixing it dry with 1 gal of water and a qt of PG may be pretty close to the home made recipe. At least that is what I am hoping as I can pick up 50 lbs of Solubore for $35.00, which should make 15 - 20 gallons of spray. Total costs including antifreeze would be about $70.00. I may opt for the PG instead of the EG as EG can be pretty nasty. Don, I'm assuming the EG antifreeze is the nasty chemical you were referring to?

Don P · « **Reply #14 on:** May 08, 2007, 02:58:05 pm »

No, in my younger days we used, umm, never mind

Ethylene glycol is the glycol in boracare. Read the link above, its got some good info.

Painters use, or did use, EG to help paint flow out better.

Ironwood · « **Reply #15 on:** May 09, 2007, 01:44:44 pm »

How about Tim-bor? http://www.pestcontrolamerica.com/servlet/the-38/wood-preservative%2Cborate-powder%2Ctreatment-for/Detail

Let me know sources for these products as well. Solubor, and Timbor.

Dateline:... Just got off the phone with Agway, they'll have the Solubor tomorrow, NAPA has EG, do I need the Boric acid???

Thanks Reid

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2007, 02:42:23 pm »

I have used Timbor and still have some. Don't expect it to work quick if at all. The bugs will jump in it and take a nice relaxing swim, dry off, and saunter away for tea and crumpets.

I treated two, what I will call, "medium infested" Loblolly beams what, 6 - 8 weeks ago something like that. I looked at 'em the other day and they still have those same little critters running around on all sides in in the tiny holes. Not nealry as many so I don't know if these are "transient" visitors just passing through and becoming infected to later die or if they are some of the natives left over that survived the Timbor treatment.
For my money i want something stronger for Loblolly.
I ended up using 2 10" x 11" x 9 foot Osage beams for posts to hold up the clear span beam. that clear span beam is also Loblolly but I had put it to the saw right after I felled it and didn't allow it to osit around for a year in the log yard like I had the others. i treated the clearspan beam with Timbor anyway and thus far still no critters. Maybe it work for preventive.

Don P · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2007, 08:35:34 pm »

Reid, the Solubor is chemically identical to Timbor so no borax needed in the mix, use it just like timbor or mix with a glcol and call it Boracare. Mixed with polyethylene glycol (PEG) you have Shellgard. The difference in labelling between Solubor and Timbor is EPA registration not chemical composition. Timbor has to jump through more hoops to be listed as a pesticide/fungicide, Solubor is a soil ammendment.

Kevjay this means you can "soup up" your timbor for your own use by adding a glycol. Going back to the fiber saturation point and free vs bound water, the borates diffuse in on the free water that is in the cell lumen. Moving through the cell walls from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration. That's why you want to use Timbor on as green a wood as possible, they reccomend a dip and dead stack wrapped in plastic for several days off the saw if you can, then sticker and dry as normal.

What I try to do is build up a "bank" of borate withing the wood. A casual surface spray is what I suspect most of the time, this isn't french perfume, soak it good. The borate is then fixed within the wood until the moisture content rises above the fiber saturation point, only then can leaching begin, the borates moving out of the bank, from the wood's high concentration into whatever the low concentration "sink" is, that can be the ground, or damp masonry or enough flowing water to saturate the wood and carry it off. Casual wetting does little to leach it.

My situation is usually dry wood so I add the glycol and apply multiple wet on wet coats. In the old infested cabins I try to sink a bag or more in them, that's ~ 50 gallons of mix. Most folks have used about half that on new construction.

The bug has to ingest it to be killed by it. Carpenter bees could care less, my building inspector claims that by fixing the roof I'm eliminating the carpenter ants, but he does agree it works on the ppb's and termites.

Ironwood · « **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2007, 09:14:33 pm »

Don P.

Any thoughts on how, what this stuff will effect/ do to me when later working the wood?

Reid

Don P · « **Reply #19 on:** May 09, 2007, 11:23:56 pm »

No

In Afghanistan, I think, they have high concentration in the water and it has impaired the male population in umm, the pusuit of happiness. IIRC it was not a permanent condition if the borate was removed. The EG could use more research. I have been in log home facilities that treat the cants (Timbor), dry, and then mill. I've treated and osborne brushed one cabin (the critter poop concerned me more) and recently treated then lightly sanded a new oak timberframe that had a hatch. Various smaller jobs like siding and trim.

If you google US Borax or Rio Tinto there is contact info. I know, asking the company that makes it questions about its safety. But then a carpenter on the internet probably isn't the whole deal on chemical safety either

.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:45:19 am »

Don,

I have read this thread 3 times now. What is my best bet for the Loblolly beam which was felled app 2 months ago then turned into a beam pretty quick thereafter . . and now being right around 26% MC on the outside and much higher inside?

I'm taking your comments to mean you think I should soup up my Timbor with a glycol. I know you said I could do you think I should? If so, should I use EG or PG?

I'm barely hanging in here with you fellas on this topic so keep it stupid fer me

I do not believe I need to treat the Bois D' Arc posts.

Ironwood · « **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2007, 11:22:54 am »

Kevjay,

Don't feel bad I must have read it 10 times, especially after doing some research and ordering some Solubor. Just like anything, dive in and you learn. Everytime I figure something out I had to go back and reread to better understand.

Reid

Don P · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2007, 06:40:13 pm »

Jeez, I'm a good 'splainer

.
I just put the solubor (1-1.5 lbs per gallon of water) and about a quart more or less according to the drying conditions that day per 5 gal batch and soak it repeatedly. I'll check in later, gotta run to the doghouse, the wifes got the book club comin.... ahhh I'm outta here

Ironwood · « **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:29:44 pm »

Don P.

No problem w/ the explaination just the comprehenion. Until you get your feet wet you are still talking pie in the sky. I picked up the Solubor today and some Poly and Ethy. Evidentally, the old style Ethy is going off the market soon. I understand the toxicity issue and will lean toward Poly. I am concerned about breathing the Ethy as I am working hte material later. This is not for a "static" application, but for palletized wood for furniture. Any further input? What about PEG flakes used for wood stabilizing? I have some of that and a stainless heated vat to melt the flakes into solution. THe vat is too small to soak my wood but would it help the cause to use PEG flakes instead of Poly in RV antifreeze?

Kevjay,

As per your earlier comment about critter walking around unscathed, it won't do anything to them until they dig in with their mouths, especially with the Ethy but that comes at a price (toxicity) to everything. At least that is my understanding, after the 10th reading.

Reid

Don P · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:45:53 pm »

I wish I'da remembered to take a long sleeve shirt down, about got a truss bent welded.

I feel like the glycol helps in my situation and would help in most situations. The moment the moisture content drops below fiber saturation, penetration stops.If the surface begins drying the moisture is heading back out. You just stalled going in. I'll step out on a limb and say that I think it works best with a cell full of water rather than just damp cell walls. That's why I think that anything that slows drying helps it get in. I started my adventure by applying Solubor and water only. By the time I made it back around a cabin it was surface dry, I felt I wasn't getting in. With the glycol I kept a cabin wet for a month. I think I got it to the bone. Nisus does make a dye that reacts with borate, I need to get some and experiment. Anyway, I think Timbor green from the saw would work fine with the suggested dip and wrap method. After that I think glycol can only help.

I've heard a few anecdotal stories that antifreeze helps prevent surface checking. I can see how that could be true. If so then even straight off the saw might be worth thinking about. I've not used propylene glycol or PEG, they are "safe". PEG is used to stabilize wood. The unknown for me is in a more finished product, how well will it glue or accept a fine finish is an unknown to me. Peg is supposedly trouble there. Timbor/water is supposedly ok. I had to resand the TF we're on after Glycol/solubor and before the danish oil. The crystals on the surface showed through the finish otherwise. I can't see any finish problems after a light sand, waterlox seemed to do fine also. For structural wood I say nuke it till it glows. I wish we had more osage, I've got a few that are up to about 2", might be awhile

.

Ironwood · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2007, 11:27:30 pm »

Don P

Yes, PEG is an issue when finishing no doubt. The wood will be fully planed and sculpted before putting a finish on. For me the issue seem to mostly be in the cambium layer, I leave it on nearly all wood I mill. This is the GOOD starchy dessert for the little #$%^. I may try coating just my outer live edges. This would hopefully work as breaking apart stacks of sticked lumber seem VERY unappealing (some of the recent walnut shown earlier in this thread are 400lbs each, I used the crane to stack them back on the pallet after photographing them).

Reid

PS. yeah you can get a real good "sunburn" welding in short sleeves, been there done that (Once)

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2007, 10:11:59 am »

This has been very informative. I still have a couple questions but they are semantics more than anything. I have the big picture I believe.

Gotta agree with y'all on the shirt sleeves. I installed a 320' x 4' steel retaining wall in 2002 for a customer and made the sections up in a buddy's shop (mine wasn't built yet) and one of my hands refused to wear a helmet! He was using one of those half face cutting masks. I kept telling him he was going to get fried and he kept saying no I got it under control. I did everything but physially force him and finally Jimmy said "Let 'im learn Kev so he'll never forget." SO I shutup about it and never gave no more thought.
The next day he called and said he counldn't come to work he wasn't feeling to well. Come dinner time I slipped on over to his house unannounced and sure enough he has 2nd and 3rd degree burns on his face everywhere the mask wasn't covering. He looked like a bright red raccoon with blisters. He was absolutely miserable and needed hospitalization in my estimation but of course would not go. His remedy was to stay drunk.
Turns out the moron thought I was trying to tell him he was going to get hit by sparks, and not that the ultraviolet light was cooking him. I just took for granted he knew enough to know that welding creates a little ball of sun at your fingertips but he was dumber than I thought.
He could not work for a week. He only lasted a couple weeks after that I finally had to let him go, he required constant supervision.
I weld way too often with short sleeves myself. It doesn't cook as bad with these hairy arms but still it ain't smart.

PineNut · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2007, 09:50:29 pm »

I tried using the borates without glycol but gave it up. Without glycol, the surface dries very quickly and crystals form on the surface. If they are on the surface, they are not in the lumber and are not doing any good. If you kept the surface wet for a period, I expect the borates would eventually move in the lumber, but it is a pain to keep the lumber wet. Also with the borates only, crystals will form in the sprayer very quickly, sometimes in less than an hour.

With the glycol, I find that the surface stays wet much longer. Also no crystals are left on the surface. Also the life of the working solution is much longer. Bora-care says that the 1:1, 1:2 & 1:3 mixtures are good for 24 hours and 1:5 is good for 30 days. I have left 1:1 in the sprayer for a week or more without any problems.

After trying both processes, I will stick with the glycol. I don’t think that the cost is much more considering the chemical that moves into the wood. And with the labor factor, the glycol is the best method for me.

brdmkr · « **Reply #28 on:** May 13, 2007, 12:19:05 am »

You guys hae me concerned with all the talk of 'sanding'. I was aiming to treat and seal withone of the water sealers. A friend has suggested a product called perma chink. I am picking up the solubor Monday. I really don't guess it matters wheter it has to be sanded or not. I have to treate it or it will be eaten

Ironwood · « **Reply #29 on:** May 13, 2007, 12:28:57 am »

Perma Chink is (to my knowlege) just a chinking for in between the logs. It is a great brand and a good product for that. Perhaps they are offering a wood treatment as well. I think Hess Log home suppply in central Pa. supplies one of the estates I deal with. They do get a log treatment from Hess but I am not sure if it is the Perma Chink brand or another, I know they get their chinking in a Perma Chink brand.

Reid

brdmkr · « **Reply #30 on:** May 30, 2007, 09:55:59 pm »

I thought I would provide an update. I treated the inside of the shop today. I used solubor and EG. I mixed an awful amout of solubor/3gallons of water while heating. I did not boil, but I am convinced that I created a super-satureated solution. I then used about a quart of EG in 3 gallons of mix. The first batch, I may have made a little light as I used a quart jar of solubor/gallon of water. I don't know where I got that idea, but solubor is REALLY light. So, I went with the super-saturation approach after. I used more like 2 - 3 quart jars/gallon of water.

Some observations

1. Given I just finished bleaching to get rid of mold, I can say that the EG really does keep the wood wet MUCH longer.

2. I did NOT observe white crystals. Did I do something wrong (I wet the wood to the point of run off).

3. Once the wood was dry to the touch the EG smell was gone.

Now, I'll just have to sit back and see if it worked. Thanks to all who provided input.

PineNut · « **Reply #31 on:** May 30, 2007, 10:21:12 pm »

Brdmkr, with the glycol, I don’t think you will get the white crystals, which I consider an advantage. This means the boron is going into the wood rather than forming crystals on the surface. I have not observed any crystals when using glycol but had a lot of trouble when not using the glycol.

brdmkr · « **Reply #32 on:** May 30, 2007, 10:48:24 pm »

Thanks for the update on the EG. I wondered if I had mixed it stout enough as I did not weight the solubor. I just kept putting it in until it started settling out of solution.

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Author Topic: Solubor and glycol (Read 3725 times)