Author Topic: ERC siding & siding in general (Read 2490 times)

TexasTimbers · « **on:** May 04, 2007, 04:35:53 pm »

I have all the B&B siding for my house ready to go on. It's 4/4 ERC that I will plane and install immediately with the family applying the exterior uv coating right away, followed with 2 more coats as soon as the directions allow.
That's the back ground. Here's the question:

How thin would you be willing to cut ERC for use as horizontal lap siding, nailed to OSB (SIPs)?

If I decide to go the hortizontal siding route I will be cutting logs in the 8' - 20' range with most in the 12' - 16' lengths, and I'm guessing I'll end up with about a 6" reveal using boards app 7" wide. Maybe less, or I will have that unsightly gap between the top of the underneath board and the bottom of the top board. I did not want to make a siding jig which would alleviate this dilemma but may do so. Until then, I'm thinking that since this siding is not going on top of studs but on a solid nail surface, I could get away with cutting them 5/8" thick which would plane them down to like 9/16" thick, and lay them with only a 3/4" overlap to minimize the space to which I referred.

I will use the board and batten on the many out buildings and my second kiln to come if I think this thin horizontal siding will work. My wife would prefer the horizontal. If we have to use B&B, I have decided to rond over the Batten boards with a 3/4 round over bit giving it a much softer look. At least in my minds' eye i think it will look good. Decisions decisions.

Larry · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2007, 07:43:59 pm »

Funny you should ask...I was busy this morning fixing woodpecker holes. Commercial WRC.

1" thick on the big end, 1/4" thick on the thin end. Width is 5 1/4". My orignal WRC siding was 5 1/2" wide. No idea what the grooves are for...something new.

I cut ERC siding the same way only with 6" width. I tried rabbits and no rabbits...like the way rabbits fit much better...just seem to be a higher quality of construction. Also tried 4" and 8" width. To my eye 6" width looks best with the 4" width a close second.

I’ve never cut ERC siding for a house...sheds, and garden structures. The oldest siding I’ve cut is going on 10 years old and doing fine.

treebucker · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2007, 09:03:45 pm »

Larry, the grooves are for (take your choice):
1- to reduce cupping.
2- appearance.

Kevjay, I'm uncomfortable cutting cedar that thin and exposing it to the elements. Even with the planned finish I still feel uneasy. But I'm no expert.

Check out some alternative profiles here on pages 5 and 6. I kinda like the Dolly Varden.

WDH · « **Reply #3 on:** May 04, 2007, 09:19:34 pm »

Are you going to plane the horizontal siding or put it up rough sawn? I have 3/4" rough sawn cypress on my house with a 5" reveal. I think it looks good. No bevel or rabbit.

I would imagine the rough sawn and the planed would have very different looks.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2007, 11:52:35 am »

That looks nice Larry. I don't necessarily mind processing it to that extent, but would rather not if I don't have to.

WDH how bout some pics pretty please. It would really go a long way helping me decide if I like the look. To answer your question whichever way we go, hor or ver, it will be planed. I got to thinking that all i would have to do to plane it would be to lay out two 12' pices of siding on the infeed/outfeed have them meet just prior to or after the planer bed. It would essentially be like my jointing bed except it would allow the siding to pass under the knives at the proper angle. After I plane my first 2 boards I could replace the rough cut ones and have a slicker surface. If i wanted to get real fancy I could cut 2" wide strips of HDPE and round them of a little and have sort of "static rollers" so the planer would not have to work as hard.

treebucker, that's an excellent refernce guide. I thought I knew it all

but there is some stuff on there that fills a few voids in my siding knowledge. I am leaning toward that Dolly Varden now and I'll tell you why. The stuff I have already cut for the vertical baord on board siding is dry and shrunk. If I go with horizontal, and it's looking more and more like I will, that DV allows for shrinkage while in service quite nice by virtue of the rabbet and nail placement. This stuff will be coming right off the saw, through the planer, and on the house all the same day, over a 2 -3 day period.

Of course, if I do the 5/8" thickenss with no bevel, I could also nail it the same way and allow for shrinkage, but I don't know how I like the looks of that way unless WDH can post a picture or two

treebucker how cme you don't like the idea of thinner siding.

WDH · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2007, 12:08:13 pm »

I will post some pics later today

.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2007, 12:11:58 pm »

Awesome thanks!

WDH · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2007, 06:37:57 pm »

Kevin,

Here are the pics that I promised. The siding on my house is cypress. It was sawed to 3/4" rough. It was not planed. It was pressure treated in a pressure treatment cylinder like is done for pine treated lumber. Some say cypress will not treat, but the sapwood will. This is the natural weathered color. I like it, some don't. The lap is about 3/4". The last photo is looking up the wall. The reveal is 5" to 5 & 1/4".

DWM II · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2007, 07:14:10 pm »

WDH, thats looks pretty nice. You said no rabbit, I'm guessing that means your using 3/4 boards 'bout 6'' wide to get your 5'' reveal? Why no rabbit? is there an advantage one way or the other?

WDH · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2007, 07:18:14 pm »

Yes, DWM II. Boards are just about 6" wide. No reason for there being no rabbet. Just did it the old fashioned way. The boards are not tapered or rabbetted. Just lapped.

DWM II · « **Reply #10 on:** May 05, 2007, 07:24:19 pm »

I havent done that before, do you start from the bottom or top? If from the bottom, do you use a spacer 3/4" at the first run?

WDH · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2007, 07:29:49 pm »

Start on the bottom, then work up. It would probably look nicest with a spacer board on the first course to get the angle, but on my house, the first course was put down without any spacers.

This is the old clapboard barn look. It might look nicer to use a beveled siding with a rabbet if it is not meant to be a rustic look.

DWM II · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2007, 07:39:35 pm »

No, I am looking at different rustic ways of doing stuff, and I like that just fine.

Handy Andy · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2007, 09:57:21 pm »

WDH, I like your siding. Did you make the corners 1 1/2" thick? Wish we had cypress trees here. Or cedar.

WDH · « **Reply #14 on:** May 05, 2007, 10:47:40 pm »

The corners are 1 and 1/2 " thick, but they are made up in an "L shape" out of two 3/4" cypress boards (one the full width you see exposed, the second layer only a strip an inch wide to get the full thickness) that wrap around the corner. The third photos shows how the siding butts up to the corner on the left side of the pic.

Norm · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2007, 07:58:24 am »

That looks very nice WDH but we really need to see the whole house to get a better idea of what it looks like.

I know you're thinking darn nosy neighbors but heck it's Sunday and I know you've been looking for something to do.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2007, 09:34:37 am »

WDH,

My lovely wife is sitting here looking at your lovely siding and she says "Is that a rock wall!? Can we do that too?" So thanks alot pal!

I vetoed that request but you sold us on the non-tapered siding. We don't see a thing in the world wrong with it. We are still going to plane ours because the urethane will go alot further than the rough soaking it up, but with the one angle there where you shot from underneath there is no appreciable gap.

We both thank you for the pictures. The only other thing we would ask is that you come put on the siding on at least the first half of the house so we know what we are doing.

WDH · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2007, 11:16:50 am »

OK Norm, I will take a pic of the "whole house".

Kevin,

That rock wall was a labor of many years. It is natural flint that was removed from the fields many many years ago. There were old piles of it in the woods, so I hauled it, cleaned it, and put it up lovingly one stone at a time. In most places, it is only about 3' high on the block from the foundation. However, I added on in 1993. and decided to do stone on 1/2 the wall on the addition. A huge undertaking. In fact, I did not completely finish it until last spring

.

Don K · « **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2007, 11:28:18 am »

Donnie, That is the same method I used on my little shed that I sawed out and built. I used 1X8's and lapped 1 1/2" I believe to allow for shrinkage. I have a picture my wife took in my gallery. I made to little wood jigs to get the spacing right. I started with a flat board at the bottom and then started the lap. I used full cut 2X4's on the corners and it has a nice reveal. I will go take some pics to post.

Don

WDH · « **Reply #19 on:** May 06, 2007, 11:28:56 am »

OK. A couple more pics. Here is a shot of the back end with the stone wall and siding.

Here is a shot of the front. As you can see, I live in the woods

.

The front porch is 40' by 12'. However, nothing fancy. The rustic siding fits in with the surroundings, definitely not a suburban thing

.

WDH · « **Reply #20 on:** May 06, 2007, 11:30:17 am »

Don,

by all means.........pics! pics!

Norm · « **Reply #21 on:** May 06, 2007, 12:06:33 pm »

Very nice!

What a beautiful setting WDH, I really like it.

Don K · « **Reply #22 on:** May 06, 2007, 12:07:49 pm »

I made a few closeups of my siding.

This a closeup of where the 1x's meet the 2X4 corners.

A shot of the siding by a door and one of the front corner. See the first flat board on bottom?

Here is the jig to get the spacing the same. Eliminates a tape measure on every board. I had two so we could do both ends.
Don

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #23 on:** May 06, 2007, 12:52:55 pm »

Thanks Don. Is that also cypress?

That is the same basic jig I have always used to install Hardi Plank and 12" masonite. Works great.

I like the corners.

Don K · « **Reply #24 on:** May 06, 2007, 01:30:51 pm »

SYP that I salvaged from our land after Ivan.

DWM II · « **Reply #25 on:** May 06, 2007, 04:11:13 pm »

Don, I like that. What did you finish it with, and it looks like you cut a full 4 quarters on the 1x8's. Also did you plane or are they rough sawed?

Furby · « **Reply #26 on:** May 06, 2007, 05:55:48 pm »

Kevjay, not the same as the rock wall, but there are gravel covered foam panels at the box stores in case your wife REALLY wants a stone type material around the foundation.

Larry · « **Reply #27 on:** May 06, 2007, 07:08:24 pm »

Quote from: WDH on May 06, 2007, 11:28:56 am

Here is a shot of the front. As you can see, I live in the woods . (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

The front porch is 40' by 12'. However, nothing fancy. The rustic siding fits in with the surroundings, definitely not a suburban thing .

I like your porch WDH...quite similar to the one I built in Missouri, only I had to plant the woods as we built in the middle of a bean field.

WDH · « **Reply #28 on:** May 06, 2007, 07:09:18 pm »

Don,'

I had my barn done just like that. I like it

.

WDH · « **Reply #29 on:** May 06, 2007, 07:11:28 pm »

Larry,

At least there was plenty of residual fertilizer to make the trees grow fast

.

treebucker · « **Reply #30 on:** May 06, 2007, 10:11:07 pm »

Kevjay,
I see things took off while I was away milling. Anyway, my concern about cutting ERC thin across a wide board then exposing it to the elements is that it seems like it would split. I know cedar is fairly stable but it also splits easily. Anyway, what do I know?

You must have an ample supply of cedar to be able to cut so many 12' 6-8" (?) boards. I guess I've seen too many defects in cedar. I love cedar but it seems like a lot of work. Most of the logs are small and the bigger ones are often filled with dry rot and/or bark inclusions.

I like WDH's approach. You spend less time at the mill and in the wood shop profiling the wood. DV does look good. But after your experience with your wife's reaction to WDH's stone, I wouldn't show her any high-labor pictures.

Don K · « **Reply #31 on:** May 06, 2007, 10:35:35 pm »

Donnie, I sprayed it with a 50/50 mixture of burnt oil and diesel last year as a quick cover. soaked in pretty quick but helped with weathering like I hoped. I am going to rebleach and spray some type box store oil stain this year. I cut it on the 1" true scale on my LT 15. And no, I didn't plane it, that just the usual high quality cut you get with a WM.

Don

WDH · « **Reply #32 on:** May 06, 2007, 11:57:46 pm »

Don,

It is hard to believe that the siding has not been planed

. Being a Woodmizer LT 15 owner myself, what can i say but............tell it like it is, brother

.

Cedarman · « **Reply #33 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:07:24 am »

We saw a fair amount of beveled siding. Usually 1/4" at thin edge and about 5/8" at thick edge. Usually 6" or 7" wide. Splitting is not a problem with cedar as long as boards do not have that seam in them that some logs have. You can take a board with a seam and break it in half with your hands. We have sawn boards 1 1/8" plus, planed both sides and then run through the siding resaw to get 2 beveled boards with planed faces. Lap siding should be installed with the nail in the top board not penetrating the bottom board. This allows the board to move a little through when the MC changes.

If I am sawing just a few beveled siding boards that have both faces planed, I put a 2" cant on the mill, shim the outside edge to give the proper bevel, place the board to be split on this cant and then another thick cant on top to make the board to be beveled flat so I can have uniform thickness.

ERC makes nice siding.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #34 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:52:52 am »

Great ideas all. I was hoping you would chime in Richard. You covered how you do it, what do you think of doing like I have settled on - just cutting it 5/8" and planing down to whatever it takes probably 9/16ish? I don't think it is too thin do you? Keep in mind I am nailing this to a solid nails base not studs, so I think I can go al little thinner like this. Your thoughts?

treebucker, our cedar down here in these parts has to get in the 24"+ range before it starts to punk or rot. I have cut trees nearly 3 feet that were still solid or mostly solid. that is rare though. Making 8" boards at 20' is still possible and at 12' common. I just sold a mantle a few weeks ago that was 18" x 9' long, and it was the middle sawlog from that tree not the bottom sawlog. The bottom was turned into slabs; a 24" slab with no live edges, two 20"ers, and two 16ish+ inchers and sent to West Texas. i wanted to keep them like I do all my nice cedar but his wallet talked so loud it was difficult to ignore him.

WDH · « **Reply #35 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:43:32 pm »

Kevin,

Would it be better to leave off the poly? What will the sun do to it? Any chance that rough sawing it and leaving it natural to weather naturally will look better? I don't know, I will admit it. However, I have seen siding coated with weather seal like Thompsons Weather Seal that turns dark at the top. Don't know it that will happen with poly. If ERC is left natural as siding will it hold up to the weather? Maybe Richard can answer this question.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #36 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:18:03 pm »

You could be right but here's what i have done as far as research. This test piece below is going on 3 months in the direct sunlight with full exposure to the sun at a 90°, out in the open rain, freezing etc. (The freezing part is done for a while thankfully). My siding will not be exposed a such. the house is getting a wrap-around porch all the way except on the east side where the 16 x 48 timber frame addition ells off of it, so the exposure will be limited indirect sunlight, part of the day.
The product is Minwax Spar Urethane (doesn't say "Poly" anywhere on the can)and the label says this stuff is made for this application, although it did not name siding specifically it said interior or exterior doors windows trim outdoor furniture etc. It says it has "Exceptional Protection" against sunlight exposure and they added more UV stuff inside.
Just says it isn't recommended for floors. they probably did not mention covered/protected siding because they weren't thinking some idiot would use ERC for siding and spend a small fortune to tryand preserve the color as long as possible. Both my wife and I really dislike how ERC turns to gray and silver and would rather use something else if we had no option. I realize in a few years we will have to redo it but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. By then Global Warming will probably have ignited the earth's surface anyway and i will have gotten out of that honey-do.

The piece below like I said is going on 3 months direct exposure. The brown patch has no urethane is just naked. The one below has one coat of the Spar Urethane, the one below that 2 coats, and the bottom one has 3 coats. You can't tell by looking probably, but there is barely an appreciable difference in the three coated test patches. Obviously, the untreated spot shows just how bad it will turn with no protection.

Never mind those black streaks that was an unrelated accident after the board was treated.

So anyway as usual I am thankful for your thoughts and welcome any others you have. the more feedback the better.
I might also mention that I gave rave reviews of a product by Defy; well all their stuff stains the cedar to the extent it looks terrible and did not weather nearly as well as the Minwax. This stuff so far is outstanding. Thanks to Arkansawyer for recommending it to me!

WDH · « **Reply #37 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:22:17 pm »

So Kevin, You are a scientist

. Nothing like research

. Seems like you have done your homework. Go for it

.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #38 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:24:36 pm »

Scientist I wish! Anyway you might re-read my post I added a few comments while you were reading it even though it does not reflect a "last edited" notation. I must have clicked "modify" right before you clicked "post".

WDH · « **Reply #39 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:29:25 pm »

The results speak for themselves. That is some dramatic test.

DWM II · « **Reply #40 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:53:14 pm »

The urathane looks to be worth the effort to me.

beenthere · « **Reply #41 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:40:36 pm »

kevjay
Yer thinkin after two-four years in the sun, that the finish won't be blistered off'n the wood? That will be a pretty impressive finish if it doesn't blister.

Usually the wood beneath the finish fails from the UV of the sun, and the finish no longer has anything to hang on to, so it blisters. Hopefully there are enough UV inhibitors in your finish to keep the wood underneath from going to pieces. That is one of the long-time risks.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #42 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:59:16 pm »

Well of course I don't know bt, that is why I said "I will probably have to redo it in a few years" but remember this siding is not going to be out "in the sun" it will be under a covered porch, with little to no direct sunlight on most of it. The only direct sunlight any of it will see is in the winter when the sun is quite southerly and will hit the bottom of the southern face, but it will also have hedges and railing and benches and potted plants (dead because it is winter remember

) and maybe enough dust to help out a little too.
I just know that spmething is better than nothing. I am open for a better suggestion.

beenthere · « **Reply #43 on:** May 07, 2007, 09:14:24 pm »

You prolly in good shape then.

Handy Andy · « **Reply #44 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:09:59 pm »

Thought I would throw in my 2 pennies. Used to have problems holding paint over wood boards unless I primed them front back, both edges and ends. Then they were sealed and would hold the paint. The wood siding around here sheds the paint regular, and my theory is the entire surface of the siding is not sealed. (on the back)
Jim

Cedarman · « **Reply #45 on:** May 08, 2007, 07:28:26 am »

Will kids be playing ball and maybe miss a catch. If the baseball were to hit the board just right, it might crack it. That is the only reason I know of to go thicker.

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Author Topic: ERC siding & siding in general (Read 2490 times)