Tree Pinchers? or Whatchamacallits?

[CHARLIE]

I was watching a documentary on T.V. the other day and here was this monstor thingamajig that they clamped on the bottom of a tree. It then seemed to just pinch the tree off. It would then lay the tree down and proceed to strip the limbs and then they'd stack the log. Holee Schmolee! How could something do that? How big a tree can that thing handle? Why wouldn't the tree fall over once it was pinched off? You'd think it would be top heavy. How many trees can be harvested per hour with one of those monsters? The wonders of hydraulics!   Oh, where are things like that used? Is it mostly for harvesting pine? I would like to be..enlightened.  

[KiwiCharlie]

G'day Charlie,
I havent had much to do with Harvesters, but I will put in a couple of links for you to look at.  The ones I have seen clamp the tree and a heavy duty chainsaw blade pivots around to cut off the tree and then the grip wheels pull the tree through to de-limb it.  Very automated.
Cheers
Charlie

http://www.piercepacific.com/PTH24-1.htm

http://www.timberjack.com/products/harvesters/heads/

http://www.ponsse.com/eng/default.htm

[KiwiCharlie]

G'day Charlie,
Heres a photo of the driver controls on a Ponsse Harvester!
Ahh Houston, we are ready for liftoff!!.....
Cheers
Charlie.
http://www.ponsse.com/ponsse2000/gallery/pages/JOYSTICK.htm

[Ron Scott]

Yes, highly mechanized logging. There are many such machines working in the Lake States.

[Jeff]

Most of these processors are also computer controlled. Say if a market requires 10 ft logs, but only logs bigger then 12 inches, the machine automatically adjusts for length and cuts  that length till the diameter is to small, it then will automatically cut, say, 100 inch stuff for pulp. As they work, they also keep track of the approximate volume they have processed.

[CHARLIE]

KiwiC, Thanks for the websites and Jeff, thanks for the explanation. Those machines are awesome. But what really impresses me is that someone actually thought up how to make one of these monsters. I'm assuming it is primarily used for logs used for construction lumber. I bet they are a bit spendy.

[swampwhiteoak]

I've only seen a few run, both were Timbco Harvesters.  For pine plantations, you can't beat their production.  I can't imagine how many guys with chainsaws it would take to keep up with it.  

They're real handy on flat ground, homogenous pine plantations.  Steep ground and hardwoods, they ain't so good.

Logger that ran 'em told me that he bought a harvester and forwarder together for 3/4 million.  Not cheap, you need a lot of production to pay for that.  

[CHARLIE]

$750,000! Why that's more than I make in a year!  

[Ron Wenrich]

I know of a few guys running automated cutters.  They are primarily on strip mine areas where they clearcut ahead of the miners.

I've also seen automated cutters on bobcats and Morbell units.  Mostly used for pulpwood.  Sawtimber and veneer trees are still felled by hand around here.

[Tom]

Ron,

It's hard to find a chainsaw in the woods anymore down here.  Insurance got so bad that the log crews can't afford to run them.  Now it's all Feller Bunchers.  The sawmills hate the hydraulic pinchers because they tear up two feet at the bottom of the tree.  More of the logging companies are getting cut-down machines with saws now.  It takes a mighty piece of equipment to drive through a sixteen inch tree, hold it up and carry it to a sorting pile.  Occasionally one ends up on its side.

[Ron Wenrich]

We have a few problems with mechanized fellers up this way.  Terrain is one of the biggest drawbacks.  Lots of ridges with some areas pretty steep.  You need some sort of leveling head.  Also, clearcuts are not the rule, so you need a pretty agile machine.  

Another problem is that the sawtimber has a bigger butt than most machines can handle.  The largest saw I've seen is 36".  Butt flare can be a lot bigger than that.

Since we are cutting hardwoods, we don't get that nice, straight growth common with pine.  Directional felling may take more than a nudge to get to move.

Insurance is high here, but so are timber prices.  Can't leave too much wood on the stump.

[Corley5]

Most of the chip harvestors around here, Northen Lower Mi., use shears or saw heads of some sort.  Dave Sidell did a clear cut chip harvest, mainly popple and soft maple, for us last summer on my Grandma's place with a Timbco with a saw head.  Pretty impressive machine and for $250,000 it should be.  It's on a self leveling chassis.  The cab is always level and works very well in hilly terrain.  The operator was able to keep well ahead of two big JD grapple skidders.  

[HOGFARMER]

Hi guys. Being in the red pine business I have seen most of the different brands of harvesters in action, so I'll give my two cents. I really like them because they are very surgical in the woods which equals minimal damage. They are also much cleaner because they require a substantially smaller landing area and since you are not dragging out whole trees, the soil is not disturbed as much. They seem to work well on hills, especially the Timbcos. The only downfalls I have seen is the fact that they are expensive, production is slighlty lower, and the tops and limbs are left in the woods which is a problem for people worried about bark beetles (not me )

[CHARLIE]

Is the overall time really slower when you take into consideration the delimbing and cutting the log to size?  It looks like the machines strip the limbs a lot faster than a man could.  Also, I'm thinking that leaving the limbs in the woods isn't such a bad thing anyway for it would provide safe haven for a multitude of critters and will eventually end up as the forest floor anyway.

[Ron Wenrich]

90% of all nutrients are in the fines - small limbs and leaves.  So, it makes sense to leave them in the woods.  Otherwise you'll end up with a nutrient problem somewhere down the road.

However, I do see the problems with having bug habitat.  There is the same problem with black cherry, and, I suspect with any tree that is attacked by bugs.

It makes sense to harvest at times where the slash doesn't cause any problems.  But, that can put a serious crunch on cash flow for the loggers.

[swampwhiteoak]

Posted by Robert
The only downfalls I have seen is the fact that they are expensive, production is slighlty lower, and the tops and limbs are left in the woods which is a problem for people worried about bark beetles

Ditto on the expensive part, but what do you mean by slower production?  And outta curosity what bark beetles give you trouble?

Corley5  The Timbco's I've seen were self-leveling as well, but that still didn't mean they ran very well on steep ground.  Operator told me that they were rated for a 35% slope, but it wasn't really safe on anything above 20% (if you figure a decent size tree).  It's all relative I suppose.  Hills in the Lake States are much different from hills in Appallachia.

[Tom]

Yep, those hills ya'll got in the rippley part of the country are a lot different than those we have in Florida, S. Georgia and Alabama too.

I saw a hill one time here in Florida.  It was in the middle of the state down toward Orlando.  It's probably still there if the developers haven't moved it.

Pine Straw collecton is an industry that the Forestry service tried to get started a few years ago here.  The tree huggers were all for it because the forest has to be mowed and preened so that the straw can be raked up.  Now they have found that collection of the straw deletes sorely needed nutrients.  

Actually Fire would probablyy solve the problem of logging tailings if it were allowed.

[timberbeast]

Lots of the younger guys won't carry a saw around and cut.  Kinda sad,  really.  Lots of loggers are also hanging on by their fingernails,  too,  because by the time they pay off that machine,  it's worn out.  You can still eke out a living with a good saw and a tractor,  if you cut the stuff right,  and have the property to do it on.  And the big stuff is still hand cut,  venneer logs and such.  To each his own!  I like to sweat.  And I like to see those purty boards come off the mill!!

[Corley5]

I'm not sure of the % of slope that they use their Timbco on but they've had it in hills steep enough that they had to work bottom to the top with Timbco bunching as they went, then the skidders would work top to bottom taking everything down the hill as the slope was too steep for them to climb.  They built a road around the hill to get the top in an easier place.  Working in hills was a major reason he bought the Timbco.  He had Hydro Axes before and they just wouldn't work well in our hilly terrain.
Our hills aren't like yours by any means but we've got some good ones.

[HOGFARMER]

I was comparing the production rate to that of a whole tree operation where the trees are brought to a slasher and delimbed at the landing. I think processors are a little slower than this, but I still really like them, and I agree with Ron about the nutrient benefit of leaving tops in the woods. I think as long as the slash is kept compacted to the ground and the trees are relatively healthy, the risk of bark beetle infestation is minimal. Bark beetles can't physically attack a healthy tree.

[HOGFARMER]

Oops, Swamp I forgot to answer your bark beetle question I don't know exactly what they are called (scientific name), but I do know you can hear them chewing away when a pile of tops waiting to be chipped have been sitting there for a while.

[swampwhiteoak]

You can hear 'em chewing away?  

I suppose you're right about the whole tree harvesting being faster, I've never been in an area where that type of harvesting going on.  Timbcos sure seemed light speed to me, compared to chainsaws.  
Only bark beetles that I'm familiar with are southern pine beetles and Ips.  SPBs are serious problems but obviously not in your area.  If my brain is working right I think Ips usually just attack stressed and dying trees.  So probably not a big deal to leave tops behind, the risk would be worth the nutrient advantage.