Scots pine vs Red pine...how do I tell?

[Ever Green]

Just trying to tell the difference...

[SwampDonkey]

red pine

[adirondack harvester]

Red Pine.

[Ever Green]

Hey thanks for the replys...but without Scots to compare to I'm still a little foggy


thanks again
Vince

[Reddog]

Here is a link for scots.

scots pdf link

[jon12345]

Scots pine has shorter needles, and usually the bole isn't as straight as a red pine.  Also the bark really chips off the top of scots so the bottom part looks like a red pine, and the top part is almost smooth and orange, sometimes even with a little green on it.

[tonich]

I consider needle’s length the most distinguished difference.
SP has 4-7 cm. long needles, while RP has 12-18 cm.
Also, as far as I can figure out from Swamp’s, RP has dark green needles. SP’s are green with some suggestion of blue.
Bark color and bole form are quite variable (regarding Scots Pine), so I’d suggest not to be taken into consideration.

I have never seen Red Pine, but here is what they say about:

The leaves snap cleanly when bent; this character, stated as diagnostic for Red Pine in some texts

Taken from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pine

[WDH]

If I remember correctly from eons ago, the cones are different.  If you look into a scots pine cone at the place where the seed wing laid on the cone scale, there will be a distinctly contrasting color between the impression left by the seed wing and the surrounding areas on the cone scale (down where the seed is held by the cone).  This is found on both virginia pine and scots pine.  In red pine, there is no sharp contract in color.  The color of the impression of the seed wing and the surrounding area on the cone scale is not in sharp contrast.

I do not have a scots pine cone to photograph, but I can get a virginia pine cone and photograph it to show this color difference.

Also, scots pine needles are short.  Red pine needles are medium long.  The bark of scots pine is more orange and can look kind of scaly higher up the stem on older trees.

Here are some pics that I took in Sweden of Scots pine on its native site.
In the first pic, notice how the bark color turns to orange as you go up the stem.  In this photo of a tree being felled, look for the orange color on the standing tree in the background:
 

In this pic of a very old stem, notice the bolt on the left of the butt log.  You can just make out how the bark is beginning to turn scaly:
 

In this pic, notice the bark smoothing up and turning to orange with height up the stem:
 

Hope this helps   The bark should look different from red pine bark which does not get scaly with height and does not turn orange.

[SwampDonkey]

Here are some Red Pine cones:

[SwampDonkey]

Red pine, according to tree improvement people, is one of those species that mother nature got right. It has good form, good branching habit, straight, and fast growing. There has been study of different provinences of the species and the genetic variation is miniscule.

[WDH]

SwampDonkey's red pine cone pic shows the first cone with the seeds in them.  The seed wing is clearly visible. 

In virginia pine, and I believe scots pine, there is a pronounced color difference between the scar left by the seed wing and the area surrounding the seed wing scar, particularly at the tip of the cone scale.  It is almost as if the interior border surrounding the seed wing is purple.

Here are a couple of pics of virginia pine cones to illustrate the color contrast I am trying to describe.......
In this pic, you can see the seed wing on the right upper side of the cone:
 

In the second pic, you can clearly see the purple-like color contrast between where the seed wing was and the inside tip of the cone scale:
 

[SwampDonkey]

Red Pine cone scales



The seeds in the cone were duds and not developed, from a young tree.

[WDH]

Those red pine cone scales in Swamp's pic have the purple tips too.  So much for my cone theory .  This pic indicates that red pine is one of those with the purple tips too.  In that case, we are back to bark texture/color and needle length .

SwampDonkey,  Since I am many many miles from any red pine, can you find any more samples to verify the purple tip theory?  Like I said earlier, it was eons ago that I studied cones, and I might well have the cone scale color phenom for scots pine wrong......

[SwampDonkey]

They are dark purple on the back side of the scale. And not really purple on the tip-edge of the seed wings, just a little darker brown. I looked on wild trees and nursery stock trees. So your safe.

[IndyIan]

In my area Red Pines are very straight (sold for hydro poles)and Scots pines usually don't have one 8' straight log in them.  There are 100's of plantations of each here and I feel bad for the poor folks that got talked into Scots pines...  The best thing that could happen is a fire for most of those plantations....

[SteveB]

As was said earlier, I'd say the most obvious difference is in the colour of the trunks of mature trees.  Red pine is a fairly consistent grey and red bark colour from stump to leader (top).  Around here (close to upstate NY) mature Scotts Pine will have a distinct change in bark colour/form at about 2/3 of the way up, changing from redish grey (similar to red pine)to relatively bright orange. 

Also, as was said earlier, red pine has good form (even relatively good when open grown) and is very consistent due to its lack of genetic diversity, while most (95%?) of the scotts pine in Ontraio has extremely crappy form (usually multiple crooks, often forked main stems and radical stem taper).  The storey goes that the seed brought here from Europe happened to be from trees genetically predisposed to poor form.  Not sure if it's genetics or different climate, but the scotts pine you see in picutres from Europe have vastly different (better) form than what you'll see here.  I have seen the odd plantation of Scotts pine in eastern Canada (&US) with OK looking form, but in the vast majority of cases it has incredibly bad form. 

[WDH]

I bet it is genetics as well, SteveB.  Those scots pine in Sweden were fine.

[LT40HDD51]

Is Scots pine the same as Jack pine?

[Reddog]

No.

Jack Pine (Pinus banksiana)
Scots Pine (Pinus sylvestris )

[WDH]

Scots pine is not native to North America.  Jack Pine is native.

[Ron Scott]

There are about 8 different varieties of Scotch Pine. Most are of poor form as previously stated, some much worst than others. Red pine is far superior.

[WAP Man]

Grab a hold ! the scotch pine  needles are sharp the Red Pine are not. Also up this end of the country all Scotch pine has been planted . The stems on matuire trees are crooked !

Wap man

[LT40HDD51]

Welcome to the Forum, WAP Man  . Whereabouts in NS you from?

[Larry]

After 15 years of growth the Scots pine is easy to identify…it’s the dead one.

Well, I guess before 15 years the yellow bark is the give away clue.

[WAP Man]

Down town ,Bass River Nova Scotia !

[OneWithWood]

Speaking of Red Pine, I have a customer who is restoring an old building and looking for some clear red pine.  Where might one find this stuff?
I have a post in the wanted section but so far no replies. 

[Nora]

In Montana, we used to have quite a few Christmas tree plantations with "Scotch" Pine. I think that variety has gone out of favor, but is it the same as Scots Pine? Also, is it used commercially, other than Christmas trees? I have read that they use it for lumber and veneer in Europe.

[SwampDonkey]

Same species Nora, it's just been Americanized to 'Scotch'. 

[WDH]

Old growth scots pine in Scandanavia makes fine lumber.  It does not does as well in North America.  However, in its proper element it is a high quality tree.

[tonich]

Old growth scots pine in Scandanavia makes fine lumber. 

Not only.
The species is commonly spread and is one of the most important forest-forming species in Europe, incl. Bulgaria. It has a huge variety in forms and provenances, which are among the most studied. In Bulgaria it takes the first place of participation in forest composition, among the coniferous. Of course, very good lumber, especially if heart is wide...

...I’d rather stop right here…. before THE MAN pops up and asks for pictures!     

[Nora]

  Scotch is a drink Scot(tish) is a nationality - I guess the "nationality" part is dependent on your UK political views. It's interesting that the terminology applies to trees too!

However, regarding "It does not does as well in North America." Is that more because of market conditions or growing conditions? If you had acreage with 40 - 50 year old Scot Pine, what would you do with it?

[WDH]

I postulate that it is growing conditions, soils, and climate.  If a species is propogated outside its niche, it does not always do as well as on its native sites.

[SwampDonkey]

I agree WDH. But, some of the early provinences that were brought here were of poor form to begin with. It was later confirmed that they were even poor in their native habitat.

With that being said, we have a insect problem with it in some Christmas tree plantations and i don't know if it's weevil or sawfly. I'm pretty sure it's sawfly.

[Larry]

However, regarding "It does not does as well in North America." Is dat more because of market conditions or growing conditions? If yoozguys had acreage with 40 - 50 year old Scot Pine, what would yoozguys do with it?

You will never see many, if any scot pine plantations that old in the midwest.  The trees start dying around 15 years of age.  If the dead tree is not removed adjacent trees start to die.  Twenty years of age they may all go belly up at once.  I’ve read different reasons...some blame fungus while others say nematode’s.  White, red, and jack do well in north Missouri while little further south yellow becomes prominent.  The Missouri Dept. of Conservation was selling Scotch pine seedlings mostly for wildlife and some reforestation...they quit because of the poor results. 

[Ever Green]

Wow, I didn't know I would have started such a lengthy forum...thanks for all the help...

[Ron Scott]

Scotch Pine. Note the more "orange" colored bark, and usually poorer form, and brushier appearance of scotch when compared to the better formed red pine previously shown.

[TexasTimbers]

Scots pine is not native to North America. Jack Pine is native.

I wish you hadn't said that. It instantly created a mulitutude of questions in my little brain.

[WDH]

Questions?  As Asy says, inquiring minds want to know

[SwampDonkey]

Scots pine here is like what Ron pictured. Up in Quebec along the Saint Lawrence, southwest of Riviere De Loup, the road ditches edges are planted with Scots pine. Seems wet for pine because of the cattails I see growing in the ditches. They are as crooked as rams horns.

[TexasTimbers]

I just wonder how far back you have to go to count a tree as native.

[OneWithWood]

In my book that would be prior to 1492.

[SwampDonkey]

Or 1497 for us Canucks when Cabot arrived and mapped the Canadian Maritime coast and dipped fish from the Bay of Fundy with a basket. 

[Ron Scott]

From the Dictionary of Forestry, Native Species:  An idigenous species that is normally found as part of a particular ecosystem. A species that was present in a defined area prior to European settlement.

[Mooseherder]

This picture isn't great.  I'll get more next week of this stand of Red Pine at camp.
I love walking and riding thru here.

[barbender]

Up here, the scots pine grows well, but like other areas they have pretty poor form. There is a stand at the local college campus that has the best form I have seen in these trees. In fact, many people mistake them for red pine, they are about 80' tall and pretty straight. The orange bark doesn't start till about 50' up and the bottom half of the trees looks pretty much the same as the red pine they are mixed with in that stand.

[Mooseherder]

 About half of these Red Pine have good form. They border the whole southeast side of our property along Route 1. Weren't Red Pine just planted to keep people busy 30 years ago?
There is a guy up in Maine who made himself a machine to peel and make the log uniform to use for Log Cabins. He is just getting started and his plan is to build one for himself then maybe be able to sell some logs. He did a great job on his logs. Wish I woulda had my camera that day.

[SwampDonkey]

Must have been more than keeping busy.  Someone must have been paid.

We've planted a lot of old marginal farmland over the years with red pine, 100's of acres. Looks nice if you can keep the moose out until it gets 4 meters or so in height. They like to rip the tops off. The trouble with red pine is traditionally it needs to be big to be worth much. We have a limited market for the pulp and no commercial mill saws it that I know of. They use it mainly for utility poles. It's most always left standing on harvest blocks. Some plantations 40 years old or more have been spaced, but the pulp was barely feasible to cut.


Are their no state silviculture programs for thinning and planting on private woodlots? Are their restrictions on clear cutting? I don't see many big cuts along the highways, but if you go beyond Mapleton, there are large cuts. They seem to be out of view from the main artery (Route 1-1A).

Up there in Fort Kent, you can look east and see Blue Bell mountain, where we spent a lot of the summer whacking the bushes. 

We will be finishing up next Friday on our last block in view of the windmills on Mars Hill.

[sharp edge]

I always had trouble with Scot and Jack pines. I think other members might have trouble too, from looking at the replies. So I googled the trees and figured them out. ___ They are the samething but different___
SE

[Brian Beauchamp]

I bet it is genetics as well, SteveB.  Those scots pine in Sweden were fine.

...do you mean 'poor' genetics, or genetics in the sense that they evolved for a particular site/climatic conditions? If it's the latter, I agree...you could probably take those Scot's pines back over there and plant them where they're supposed to be and get perfectly good trees out of them.

[SwampDonkey]

From what I gather some of our early Scot's Pine plantings were of poor phenotype. Even at the source location they were poor. Some old farmer or what not, with no attention to quality or phenotype, just went out and collected some seed. Later seed sources proved to me much better through provenance testing. But sawfly or weevil, forget which, really hammer it bad up here. It will naturalize an area pretty good though. I see it spreading in fields and ditches. I seen it planted in some pretty poor soil to and the trees sure show signs of stress.

[LT40HDD51]

...The trouble with red pine is traditionally it needs to be big to be worth much. We have a limited market for the pulp and no commercial mill saws it that I know of. They use it mainly for utility poles...

Around here the log home builders like it, but as you said, it needs to be big. Like 24-30" at the butt and nice and straight. We get to buy some oversize stuff once in a while from some log builders and cutters we know locally.