Author Topic: Identifying Oaks (Read 4022 times)

WDH · « **on:** April 12, 2007, 11:25:00 pm »

I had posted an offer a while back to initiate a post on identifying the various species of oak. I know the oaks very well, but you tend to know what you see regularly and you don't know what you don't see regularly. That is to say a tree of a particular species might look a little different in Georgia versus Pennsylvania (I don't get to Pennsylvania much

). So, I plan to start a post on the oak species, one by one for the more common ones, so that Forum members can share their experiences with that species, the special ways they have of identifying the species, and post any pics that they might have. It would be a good way to facilitate a discussion on the various species.

So, here goes..................

tonich · « **Reply #1 on:** April 15, 2007, 09:51:40 am »

OK!
To make things even more complicated about oaks, I will insert all the Mediterranean oaks, spread all across my country.

J/K

WDH · « **Reply #2 on:** April 15, 2007, 09:54:49 am »

Tonich,

I posted scarlet oak first, but there does not seem to be any interest. It may be just you and me!

tonich · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2007, 10:05:39 am »

I guess, this is because oaks are REALLY complicated – a big genus, many species, variable in biology and ecology.
But it is a basic forest-forming species and worldwide spread pioneer.
So it is quite odd from my point of view…

scgargoyle · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2007, 11:53:03 am »

I, for one, am really interested in all things oak, since I've got a lot of 'em on my property in SC (see my response in the Scarlet thread). So far, I think I have scarlet, red, white, black, and maybe chestnut oaks. The only good look I got was in the winter, so the leaves were all mixed up, and most of the acorns were eaten. We might go back up in May, then definitely in July, so if I know what to look for, I can ID some of my trees. Thanks for helping out us newbies!

Jeff · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2007, 11:57:00 am »

I think there is a lot of interest. Its one of those things that we tend to look at and say Ah! Cool! But to ourselves.

So, Ah. Cool! And, also Thanks!

Radar67 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2007, 12:40:03 pm »

Danny, I have been following this thread as well. I purchased the National Audobon Society's book, Field Guide for Trees, Eastern Region and it has a lot of good information in it. I didn't realize there were so many different kinds of oak.

Stew

Jeff · « **Reply #7 on:** April 15, 2007, 12:48:02 pm »

Radar67, thats a good book. I like all of those field guides.

Radar67 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2007, 01:07:49 pm »

I skimmed through it last night. I have to do a little reading on the How to use section, but it looks like it will help out tremendously. I also looked at the same book on mushrooms...that's a lot of different species in there.

Stew

DWM II · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2007, 07:00:43 am »

This is cool, I am ignorant in the text book sense when it comes to oak I.D. Do they all fall into the "red" or "white" catagory? I can pick out a true white oak but then I also call saw tooth trees white oaks as well. Is a water oak a red oak? I could ask 100 questions so I'll just stay tuned to the posts, thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge.

WDH · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2007, 07:38:21 am »

Yes, DWM II,

All oaks fit into two categories

1). The White Oak Group

or

2). The Red Oak Group

Water oak falls into the red oak group. The red oak group has spines on the leaves at the leaf tip on on the end of the lobes. The white oaks don't have spines. Also, red oak acorns take 2 years to mature while white oak acorns mature in one year. The good thing is that the leaves and bark of the two groups are distinctly different. More about that later.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #11 on:** April 17, 2007, 12:17:31 pm »

I would have expected water oak to be in the white oak group given its leaf shape.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #12 on:** April 17, 2007, 03:47:45 pm »

To complicate things, oaks have variations in leaf shapes, not only within a species, but within a single crown. They respond to light conditions and can be really difficult in a full crown cover stand. In the old days, I would shoot a limb out of the top to try and get a text book leaf. Sometimes works.

wesdor · « **Reply #13 on:** April 17, 2007, 04:38:28 pm »

So now I am a bit confused (nothing new for me). Is a Swamp White Oak a water oak or a white oak? I planted about 100 of them last year thinking they were White Oak.

I suppose it will be more than a couple of years before they make good saw lumber, so my question isn't too time critical.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2007, 04:58:20 pm »

Swamp white oak is a white oak. In a wild setting, its more at home in wetlands than it is on dry areas. I've never seen it in dry areas, come to think of it. Quality of lumber from swamp oaks is usually pretty dismal, due to the overly amount of limbs that seem to hang on forever.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #15 on:** April 17, 2007, 05:10:35 pm »

The overall shape of water oak leaves tends to be pretty consistent - although the size appears to vary greatly.

But, I have never seen any water oak leaves with spines or bristles. Thus, my confusion about WDH classifying them as a member of the red oak group.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #16 on:** April 17, 2007, 05:45:28 pm »

Water oaks around here can have leaves that look like willow oak, water oak, and post oak, all on the same tree. Try to get a picture, they are not rare.

DWM II · « **Reply #17 on:** April 17, 2007, 07:38:04 pm »

Post oak-is that also pin oak? Also does the water oak have a similar leaf as the pin oak only with the points on the ends of the lobe? I have many pin oaks and then there's the one with a similar leaf I described.

WDH · « **Reply #18 on:** April 17, 2007, 10:45:19 pm »

Water oak does have spines on the leaves early on in the season. Also there are 3 or four shapes that water oak leaves display like Texas Ranger pointed out. Some are unlobed, some are three lobed at the tip, some are spatula shaped (leaf widest at the tip, and some are actually lobed with sinuses (indentati.ons toward the mid-rib). Again, as TR pointed out, sometimes on the same tree. So you have to look at all the leaves from top of the crown to the bottom. Water oak will be fun when we get to that post (stay tuned) because is a little like a master of disguises

. We will do a post on it by itself so as to reveal its many disguises

Now the question of pin oak as DWM II brings up. In the mid-South, people refer to a "pin oak", from local custom that is usually an oak with a long lance shaped leaf that is very regularly shaped, or a leaf that is longer than broad, but otherwise unlobed. This is, most times, truely what is defined as a willow oak (Quercus phellos) or laurel oak (Quercus laurifolia) depending on the length and width of the leaf. A true pin oak is a more northern tree that has a leaf very deeply lobed with many bristle tips on the lobes very much like the shade leaf scalet oaks. I know this may seem confusing, but true pin oak (Quercus palustris) is a species in its own right and does not occur in the deep South and not on the bottomlands. So "pin oak" in the deep south is not really a true pin oak but a local name for what is actually willow oak and laurel oak. Clear as mud

.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2007, 09:46:51 am »

Yep, I learnt about the whole pin oak/willow oak thing many years ago.

There are many willow oaks and true pin oaks planted as ornamentals in the downtown Atlanta areas of Woodruff Park and Underground.

WDH, I never would have thought water oak was in the red oak group. You have taught me something.

scgargoyle · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2007, 06:19:44 pm »

What about live oak? Or are they in another group of their own? They grow their (numerous!) acorns in one season, and they practically sprout on the way to the ground.

WDH · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2007, 09:19:43 pm »

Live oak is considered to be in the white oak group. Live oak is a little bit of an anomaly. It can sometimes be a cross-dresser. But the accepted and historical botanical/dendrological classification of live oak is a member of the white oak group.

DanG · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2007, 10:41:31 pm »

I've always felt that there should be 3 Oak groups...Red, White, and Live. I didn't get to vote, though.

Dodgy Loner · « **Reply #23 on:** April 26, 2007, 01:35:47 pm »

DanG, your opinion reflects that of many modern taxonomists. The reason live oak has been considered to be a white oak for so many years is primarily based on two things: the acorns mature in 1 year (red oak acorns take 2 years to mature), and live oaks only hybridize with members of the white oak group (an example is Compton oak, which is a hybrid between an overcup oak (Quercus lyrata and live oak Quercus virginiana).

However, modern DNA research has shown that live oaks are about as genetically different from white oaks as red oaks are. Anyone who has seen live oak wood knows that it is very different from both red oak and white oak. It's much harder and heavier, it's pore arrangement is semi-ring-porous, rather than ring porous, and the pores themselves are much smaller. For those reasons, I have to agree with DanG and place live oak in a separate group.

WDH · « **Reply #24 on:** April 26, 2007, 10:15:42 pm »

Sometimes nature does not like neat little pigeon holes

. We like convenient distinct groups and boxes and classifications, but sometimes we have to stretch things to fit

.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #25 on:** August 05, 2007, 03:26:20 pm »

Good spot as any to post some new red oak seedlings from the woodlot.

Here's one with lammas (late season) growth. It's like having two growing seasons in one year.

WDH · « **Reply #26 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:18:01 pm »

Nice spines, SD

.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #27 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:21:15 pm »

Not too far where I got intimate with the snozzle of a black bear this morning. Not sure whether that was rain water on the leaves or........

WDH · « **Reply #28 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:35:31 pm »

OK SD,

We need to hear more about this omnivorious experience

.

BTW, the oak bark in Michigan is funky.........doesn't look quite the same as in the hot and humid South, more subdued. The northern red oak bark is not dark black with brilliant silver streaks...it is more dark gray with much less prominent streaks. The black oak bark is not dark black, more of a dark gray. The white oak bark is not pale white, it is more of a light gray.

However, the pig had the same great taste. (Good on ya Stump-Jumper and Furby

).

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #29 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:44:29 pm »

Well, I was armed with a camera at least. If things had turned for the worst, I could have used it as a nose buster.

Be warned though that black bears as big as they can become don't always make big noises when they walk. And what looks like little critters walking in tall weeds can have big black noses and ears.

Dodgy Loner · « **Reply #30 on:** August 06, 2007, 02:48:09 pm »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on August 05, 2007, 03:26:20 pm

Good spot as any to post some new red oak seedlings from the woodlot.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Is this one a black oak? Around here, the red oaks with rounded lobes but prominent bristle tips are black oaks, while northern red oaks always have pointed lobe tips. Of course, as WDH mentioned, the oaks up north don't necessarily conform to our southern standards $:-\$

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #31 on:** August 06, 2007, 05:56:56 pm »

It's a new germenant Dodgy. Next years leaves will look OK. I promise.

I kinda lied on the second seedling, it's about 3 years old. Did I say hares like anything green?

We don't have black oak up here, northern red oak is quite sparse as it is.

Ever see new basswood seedlings? Leaves ain't nothing like an older tree.

Same with northern white cedar, ya think you have a tray of moss for about three years.

GW · « **Reply #32 on:** August 07, 2007, 09:37:44 am »

Does anybody know what is the most common wood for smoking food in south Florida? (I do.)

Mooseherder · « **Reply #33 on:** August 07, 2007, 01:40:50 pm »

Quote from: GW on August 07, 2007, 09:37:44 am

Does anybody know what is the most common wood for smoking food in south Florida? (I do.)

Black Oak.

GW · « **Reply #34 on:** August 07, 2007, 01:49:29 pm »

I don't think so.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #35 on:** August 07, 2007, 03:40:12 pm »

Mangrove?

GW · « **Reply #36 on:** August 07, 2007, 03:48:14 pm »

Nope.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #37 on:** August 07, 2007, 04:09:29 pm »

Sassafras?

GW · « **Reply #38 on:** August 07, 2007, 04:45:47 pm »

Hmmm. That has possibilities.

But no.

scgargoyle · « **Reply #39 on:** August 07, 2007, 04:55:38 pm »

I've known a lot of folks who use Buttonwood (white mangrove) in FL, but it's a big no-no.

GW · « **Reply #40 on:** August 07, 2007, 04:57:50 pm »

I'm beginning to enjoy this.

WDH · « **Reply #41 on:** August 07, 2007, 05:05:57 pm »

After you string us out for a while, you might consider one little tidbit of a hint

. Like it has brachial branching, or the peduncles are pendulant, or the pistil is ~~single shot~~ compound with the hypanthium in the superior position

.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #42 on:** August 07, 2007, 05:07:03 pm »

I had no idea whether mangrove was a possibility. I kinda meant it as a joke. I'm surprised to hear that people actually use it for smoking.

However, I have read that sassafras wood makes good smoke for cooking. It would make sense given its natural fragrance. I have a standing dead sassafras I may cut down and try.

Yes, how about a hint?

GW · « **Reply #43 on:** August 07, 2007, 05:09:22 pm »

Hint: It's a very common tree.

WDH · « **Reply #44 on:** August 07, 2007, 05:20:25 pm »

Is it an orchard tree, like in a fruit tree or nut tree?

GW · « **Reply #45 on:** August 07, 2007, 05:22:47 pm »

To soon.

GW · « **Reply #46 on:** August 07, 2007, 05:28:29 pm »

Where's DanG it? He needs a shot at this one.

Mooseherder · « **Reply #47 on:** August 07, 2007, 05:40:27 pm »

Could it be Australian Pine

If so, South Florida and I have got some on inventory.

GW · « **Reply #48 on:** August 07, 2007, 05:51:05 pm »

No to Australian Pine.

And it's not an orchard tree.

metalspinner · « **Reply #49 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:10:35 pm »

I'm going to give this a shot. Using "South Florida" as my only clue and with absolutly no knowledge of smoking meats.

Mahogany.

GW · « **Reply #50 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:12:56 pm »

Nuhnt uhn.

metalspinner · « **Reply #51 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:16:07 pm »

Live oak.

GW · « **Reply #52 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:19:06 pm »

Thank goodness. I thought I might have to point out the title of this thread.

metalspinner · « **Reply #53 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:22:17 pm »

I was beginning to wonder where this thread was heading.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #54 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:31:20 pm »

Quote from: GW on August 07, 2007, 06:19:06 pm

Thank goodness. I thought I might have to point out the title of this thread.

Sneaky guy. Making us read topics.

Mooseherder · « **Reply #55 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:54:41 pm »

Got one of doze too but ain't sacrificing for smoke.
This one has acorns budding now.

WDH · « **Reply #56 on:** August 07, 2007, 10:27:10 pm »

Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky..........

.

GW · « **Reply #57 on:** August 07, 2007, 10:29:56 pm »

I asked the question on page 2 of this thread. Check out the post at the top of the page.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #58 on:** August 08, 2007, 04:05:51 pm »

I should have known.

I love live oaks. I grew up in the northern part of the live oak belt in Lee County. Large old live oaks are some of the best climbing trees there are in the world - especially when they have the huge horizontal limbs.

Sadly, 3 of the ancient live oaks I've known for most of my life have perished under their own weight. They split apart and died, although one of them has a living portion that is still standing. My dad has one by his driveway that has a dbh between 6' and 7'.

Mooseherder · « **Reply #59 on:** August 11, 2007, 12:06:50 am »

Annuder trick question with a pic.

What flavor is it?

WDH · « **Reply #60 on:** August 11, 2007, 12:23:36 am »

Vanilla oak

. Sure isn't strawberry or raspberry

. Ahh, look at that revolute leaf. Look at that significant color contrast between the upper side and lower side. Look at that knobby acorn cup. Sure looks like a lively specimen to me

.

Mooseherder · « **Reply #61 on:** August 11, 2007, 12:38:13 am »

What a lively description.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #62 on:** August 11, 2007, 07:52:35 pm »

I was just noticing on my white oak tree that I have a lot of tiny undeveloped acorns about 1/8" wide. I did not see any male pollen flowers on the tree this spring. So, I am assuming these acorns will be aborted with the leaves. The leaves are definitely white oak and dark green above, paler below, no pubescence. I know it is not bur oak. The tree came from southern NH (Exitor) as a seedling. It has beautiful scarlet foliage in the fall, much more colorful than our native red oak.

limbrat · « **Reply #63 on:** August 13, 2007, 10:45:05 pm »

Are the live oaks in dry central texas the same as the live oaks along the southeastern coast?

WDH · « **Reply #64 on:** August 13, 2007, 10:49:18 pm »

NO!!!!!!

Have you ever seen an oak branch that was twice as long as the tree is tall

.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #65 on:** August 13, 2007, 11:01:22 pm »

I have!!

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #66 on:** August 13, 2007, 11:04:40 pm »

In Lee County, GA.

On the northern edge of the southeastern live oak range.

I used to climb that sucker when I was a kid.

You could run flat out along the limbs on this thing. It was one fun tree to climb on.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #67 on:** August 14, 2007, 05:56:24 am »

Quote from: WDH on August 13, 2007, 10:49:18 pm

Have you ever seen an oak branch that was twice as long as the tree is tall .

Sounds like suckered beech in heavy shade. Or pasture grown tamarack.

limbrat · « **Reply #68 on:** August 14, 2007, 07:59:56 pm »

Maybe i have seen them longer than the tree is tall for sure. Long enough to touch the ground twenty ft. from the tip. there are some on Avery Isle like that.
The reason i asked was cause i vaguely remember a interview with Barbra Bush George seniors wife.Were she had chose one of them tortured looking oaks to plant in washington, but was told that in the wetter climate it would not grow the way that she expected.So she picked something else.

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Author Topic: Identifying Oaks (Read 4022 times)