Author Topic: Evergreen I.D. please (Read 2487 times)

Daren · « **on:** March 27, 2007, 05:14:26 pm »

I don't know my softwoods. I have some pictures of some trees the school is taking down to expand the ball diamonds and they asked me if I wanted them. There are a couple sycamores and a bumpy redbud I know I do, but don't know what species this is and if it is good for anything. I plan on giving some of the lumber back to the school for shop class. The dead one without bark seams to be sound (no visible worm holes at least and no exterior rot) Is it worth sawing ? They are 20-24 dbh.

WDH · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2007, 05:23:05 pm »

It looks like the needles are in two's. I believe that it is red pine, Pinus resinosa. It should saw into typical hard-pine lumber like loblolly, shortleaf, or pitch pine. The dead one looks sound from the pic. Our rule of thumb is that if you stick a knife into it and it feels solid instead of soft, if would be sound enough for lumber.

Daren · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2007, 05:30:17 pm »

Quote from: WDH on March 27, 2007, 05:23:05 pm

Our rule of thumb is that if you stick a knife into it and it feels solid instead of soft, if would be sound enough for lumber.

I did that, the bark has slipped but the wood is not soft.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #3 on:** March 27, 2007, 05:45:08 pm »

That's not red pine. Red pine needles are about 6 inches long and dark yellow-green. Are the needles flat on one side? And rounded on the other, like a semicircle if looked at on a cut end?

They look more like shortleaf or pitch pine to me. Needles in threes, v shaped and more light yellow-green.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #4 on:** March 27, 2007, 06:05:30 pm »

Red Pine

Daren · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2007, 06:27:20 pm »

The needle bunch I picked up was laying on the ground and sorta dried out. On the tree they are darker (I just could not reach any) I tried to get a pic of them on the tree, but it is cloudy and the one I posted doesn't show good. The needles are about 4". I did not pay attention to their cross section shape. They have pruned the lower limbs, but there are relatively few in the top where it was not touched. The limbs are small in diameter and sparse (the picture looking up is 2 trees next to each others limbs, not just one tree) and for the tree size the canopy is small. The needle bunches they do have are just here and there on the limbs, there is just not many needles period on even the healthiest of the trees.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2007, 06:44:35 pm »

Jack pine

Daren · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2007, 06:56:46 pm »

As a sidenote I have been threating to do this for a year. Make a short video of me sawmilling and give it to the shop teacher for subject matter for a days class "where lumber comes from" He can show the students how the tree they played baseball around was turned into lumber for shop class. It may hold their interest and give the teacher something other than books to work with. I got the idea a long time ago, but with trees from the school it would be even cooler in my opinion.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2007, 07:12:48 pm »

I'd rule out jack pine. Needles are much shorter in jackpine (1") , cones are curved. Although, the branching form I see in those photos are similar to jack but I would suggest Virginia pine. When I first saw Virginia pine from a distance I thought I was looking at jack. Both jack and Virginia pine needles are twisted and semi circular on the X-section. Your actually between the range of both jack and Virginia pine.

Depending on the needles, I'd go with my previous pines or with Virginia.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** March 27, 2007, 07:23:41 pm »

Jack Pine

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #10 on:** March 27, 2007, 07:34:52 pm »

Looks like Virginia pine

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2007, 08:12:39 pm »

The only problem I have with Virginia pine is the size. I've never seen them 20-24" dbh. It was my first inclination, but its pretty far out of its range and I doubt if anyone would plant one just for something to plant.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2007, 08:33:18 pm »

Well, I wouldn't discount Virginia because of being planted out of it's range. That is quite common, especially if it's natural range is at similar latitude. Lots of example here, such as Norway spruce and Scots Pine, European Larch and Japanese larch.

That's why I want to know if needles are in threes or twos, and what the x-section of the needle is.

Daren · « **Reply #13 on:** March 27, 2007, 08:55:25 pm »

I will get a better needle sample tomorrow (or so) if that is the indicator to narrow it down. The dbh was an afterthough eyeball over the fence on the way back to the truck, they may be a wee bit smaller.

Gary_C · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2007, 09:25:52 pm »

From just the bark, it looks like a Norway Pine which is a red pine.

From the limbs, it looks like a Scotch Pine although an open grown one like that would normally have larger diameter limbs. Scotch is also considered a red pine.

So red pine of some type would be my guess. Definately not Jack Pine.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2007, 09:36:25 pm »

Red pine and Scots pine have orange-red bark to.

WDH · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2007, 10:18:56 pm »

It is not virginia pine. The bark is wrong. Large virginia pine bark is scaly. It is not jack pine as SD pointed out. It could be shortleaf pine, but if it is, there will be pitch pockets on the bark. They are little round dimples or depressions, sort of like little shallow pits. Very diagnostic. No other pine has them. Also, the needles can be in two's and three's on the same branch in shortleaf. Check that out. Red pine will only be in two's. Red pine is native to that area, so that is why I think that it is red pine.

Gary_C · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2007, 10:20:57 pm »

Yes, scotch pine more so than norway, but it is not necessarily true. The bark looks identical to most of the Norway I see. Scotch normally has more patchy bark as well as orange colored, but again not always.

Those open grown trees can be difficult to identify by "normal" traits.

Texas Ranger · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2007, 10:20:04 am »

Had a brain malfunction when I wrote Virginia Pine, ment to write Scotch Pine, and any tree planted out of range can have some strange not quite right features. I go with scotch.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2007, 10:24:32 am »

Yes, I agree it's a good possibility for sure.

Daren · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2007, 12:53:49 pm »

I checked a couple dendrology sites and the pictures of mature bark of Scotch Pine looked just like the ones I am talking about. And the descriptions of size/shape/foliage were pretty close too. I think you guys pinned it down, thanks.

Raider Bill · « **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2007, 02:50:46 pm »

While All of you experts are gathered in one place, could I bother you for a ID on this one

I found a bunch of them hidden away in the back 40.

Thanks!

WDH · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2007, 05:16:08 pm »

The resolution of the picture is not too good. Are the spines on the end of the cone scales large and curved? Almost like a long tongue but sharp, especially toward the base of the cone? Are the needles in 2's, short and stout? Are you in the mountains? My initial guess is table mountain pine, Pinus pungens, because it looks like the cone scales have large curves spines on the tip the best I can make out on the pic.

Raider Bill · « **Reply #23 on:** April 06, 2007, 11:34:29 am »

I'll look and see it I have a better pix. They are in SE tennessee near Tellico Plains. It's replanted Bowater property.
Past posts have Id'ed Lobolly pine and red Cedar. I also have a good 15 acres of what I assume to be popular which seems to have over grown the pine and caused them to die off.
Is that possible? I have some pix of that area if it will help.

Thanks

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #24 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:54:43 pm »

I'd suggest Virginia Pine. Do a Google. I've been through that area of Bowater plantations myself. Most of what I seen planted was short leaf pine and the pine bark beetle was killing it off. The picture doesn't look like short leaf.

Raider Bill · « **Reply #25 on:** April 06, 2007, 01:21:27 pm »

I took this 2 weeks ago at the top of my property. There is alot of this here. I thought maybe the populars were taking over.

While I was there I got to play bull dozer for a couple days!

Actually there was already a old logging road there but still a bunch of fun! I been eyeballing those cat D-9's on road construction sites.........

Wonder what they rent for?.....

WDH · « **Reply #26 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:57:09 pm »

Like SwampDonkey said, it is probably virginia pine if you are not up in the mountains. The way to tell for sure is to look down into the cone. The tip of the cone scale where the seed was will be a distinctly different color from that portion of the scale where the seed wing was held. If you can, take a pic of a cone looking down into the cone so we can see the the impression of the seed wing. In shortleaf, there is no contrast between the part where the seed wing was and the rest of the scale. In virginia, there is a distinct and noticeable contrast. A good close-up pic of the cone will settle this question. Also, take a good pic of the bark too. The bark of virginia is kind of scaly where shortleaf is not.

Raider Bill · « **Reply #27 on:** April 09, 2007, 12:10:22 pm »

Next time I get up there I will take some better pix. I'm amazed at how many differnt types of pine I have found in the 69 acres.
On the high spot where I plan on building it appears that populars are taking over. Is that a good thing? I'm wondering aboutroots, ice or wind storms. How do they weather those? I'd like to leave some trees close to the house for looks and shade but don't want to take the risk if populars are brittle or pose a threat to my building.

beenthere · « **Reply #28 on:** April 09, 2007, 12:17:24 pm »

Raider Bill
Are you talking Yellow Poplars ? or something else that is 'popular' ??

Raider Bill · « **Reply #29 on:** April 09, 2007, 12:23:29 pm »

Sad to say I don't know. Actually I was told they are populars by a local but for all I personally know they could be redwoods

WDH · « **Reply #30 on:** April 09, 2007, 01:30:25 pm »

They are probably yellow poplar. Do the leaves look like the tips have been cut off by scissors? Check out this website. Do they look like what you see here? The leaves are distinctive.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=54

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #31 on:** April 09, 2007, 02:19:58 pm »

Yeah I doubt they are aspen or populous. Yellow poplar (a magnolia sp) is more likely as suggested by WDH. Seems that a lot of clear cuts in that region get taken over by yellow poplar sometimes. Not always of course.

WDH · « **Reply #32 on:** April 09, 2007, 02:43:34 pm »

There is also a good bit of cucumber tree (Magnolia acuminata) in that area. It is related to yellow poplar and also in the magnolia family. Raider Bill, try to get us a pic of the leaf.

Raider Bill · « **Reply #33 on:** April 09, 2007, 03:17:17 pm »

I will next time I'm there which should be the end of this month. Everything was leafless last trip.
I used my new chainsaw chaps for tromping through the woods, They worked great, better than brush pants as when I got hot I just unsnapped the legs. Thanks for the tip!

WDH · « **Reply #34 on:** April 28, 2007, 11:59:25 pm »

Here is a pic of the virginia pine cone with the color contrast that I described earlier in the post.

Notice that the inside tips of the cone scales are a purple color. In shortleaf, there is not a very distinct color difference.

Raider, have you made it back to the property yet?

Raider Bill · « **Reply #35 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:24:41 am »

I've been here a week. Been bull dozing until yesterday when the dozer caught fire while in the woods.

I was about a half a mile back off the roads in a heavy pine thicket and poof!
Drove it out to the road and called the fire Dept. I didn't want to catch about 1000 acres on fire, nor did I want to make the fireman hump that far into the woods to put it out.
Going to break the news to the rental place today.
I got my house site plus 2 more cleared, made a bunch of access trails.
Hopefully today I will get there and take some pix of the pine cones. To me these don't look like them.
While I was dozing I found maple and elm trees maybe some walnut but not sure about them yet.
Is elm good for anything?
What's the story on sumac? Found them too, not too fond of them always thought of sumac as a garbage tree.

WDH · « **Reply #36 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:51:41 am »

Sorry to hear about the dozer

. Elm is mainly used as palletwood in the Industry. Pretty lumber, though, just hard to dry straight because it has interlocked grain.

Raider Bill · « **Reply #37 on:** April 30, 2007, 08:58:44 pm »

Quote from: WDH on April 28, 2007, 11:59:25 pm

Here is a pic of the virginia pine cone with the color contrast that I described earlier in the post.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Notice that the inside tips of the cone scales are a purple color. In shortleaf, there is not a very distinct color difference.

Raider, have you made it back to the property yet?

Took some shots today but can't get them posted until I get back to Florida.

Raider Bill · « **Reply #38 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:06:14 am »

I finally got this uploaded. Any Ideas what is is?

Raider Bill · « **Reply #39 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:44:59 am »

And here's 2 more unknowns?

Tom · « **Reply #40 on:** May 07, 2007, 12:07:40 pm »

Raider Bill,
Your camera seems to be focusing beyond the subject. You either need to use the close-up option on your camera (macro), if it has one, or back up some to give the distance finder a chance to get the subject in range. You can then, usually, make the picture bigger with judicial cropping when you print it or upload it.

Raider Bill · « **Reply #41 on:** May 07, 2007, 01:00:52 pm »

Sorry old cheap camera.

Tom · « **Reply #42 on:** May 07, 2007, 01:02:35 pm »

It'l still work, just give it some room to focus.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #43 on:** May 07, 2007, 05:50:33 pm »

Quote from: Raider Bill on May 07, 2007, 11:06:14 am

I finally got this uploaded. Any Ideas what is is? (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Looks like Virginia. I've seen it in that area in my travels.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #44 on:** May 07, 2007, 05:53:23 pm »

Bill, the focal point is at least 4 feet from the subject in order to get a fuzz free pic., with micro it's around a foot or so.

WDH · « **Reply #45 on:** May 07, 2007, 05:57:36 pm »

Swamp is right on! The cone pic is Virginia Pine!! Look at those fabulous purple tips on the cone scales! I am still studying the second pic...............

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #46 on:** May 07, 2007, 05:58:08 pm »

Was 75F today and very dry (14% RH) with wind. Your dozer fire reminded me of this, and it's high fire risk right now with all the dry dead weeds in the undergrowth. I don't see many scratching at the fields yet, but they could because the top of these fields by the house is powder dry.

WDH · « **Reply #47 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:05:42 pm »

The second unknown, the green leaf on the left, sure looks like dogwood. The arcuate veination is obvious. The pic on the right, is that dried leaves or is it fruit? I am consternated on that one..........

Raider Bill · « **Reply #48 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:20:08 pm »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on May 07, 2007, 05:58:08 pm

Was 75F today and very dry (14% RH) with wind. Your dozer fire reminded me of this, and it's high fire risk right now with all the dry dead weeds in the undergrowth. I don't see many scratching at the fields yet, but they could because the top of these fields by the house is powder dry.

That was what I thought about while getting the burning dozer out of the woods. I would have hated to be the cause of a forest fire especcially if it was mine.

Quote from: WDH on May 07, 2007, 06:05:42 pm

The second unknown, the green leaf on the left, sure looks like dogwood. The arcuate veination is obvious. The pic on the right, is that dried leaves or is it fruit? I am consternated on that one..........

I'm told there are many dogwood trees on the property but I wouldn't know a dogwood if it bit me.
Yes those are dried leaves whatever they are I have hundreds of the trees they are on. I hit areas where that was all there was and going through it was snowing tan leaves bad. There were no green leaves on these trees but when I broke a twig it was live and green inside.

My camera has been dropped too many times as I used it for work. I have to tap it a few times to shoot.

WDH · « **Reply #49 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:24:19 pm »

The green leaf is dogwood (Cornus florida). The dried leaves, I don't know.................

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Author Topic: Evergreen I.D. please (Read 2487 times)