Fill the increment borer hole ?

[mdvaden]

I'd like some opinions, after reading the thread "Tree Age" regarding the Black Oak.

Replies there, mentioned bacteria in an increment borer hole, and not putting the core back in.

Has anybody tried filling the hole with something else?

Not metal of course, but I was thinking of injecting holes with "Good Stuff" or the similar foam used for ponds: labeled to be safe for Koi and aquatic plants after curing.

Most arborists I replied back and forth with, concluded that a foam like that would be acceptable for filling hollows in trees to keep bees and other animals from nesting on residential property. It's flexible too, and can be kept of the trunk by putting a cardboad cover over the hole, and a plastic skirt on the trunk to catch the initial ooze during expansion.

If a foam like that was shot into the hole - even a few inches, wouldn't the sealed hole be shut-off to future pathogens?

I recall Dr. Shigo's books mentioning that when a pruning cut sealed over completely, that it basically halted the entrance of most pathogens.

What do you think?

[Riles]

This is one of those topics where you'll find lots of opinions and little conclusive research. Filling the bore hole is a lot like painting over the pruning location. It will exclude pathogens (fungus more so than bacteria), but may come with it's own set of problems.

Any penetration of the bark is a potential infection court, but the size of the wound makes a difference. Look at the results of fire scars and sloppy logging damage on hardwoods and you know where butt rot starts. Look at wind damage in the tops and you know where the rot up there started.

The age of the tree makes a difference as well. Young vigorous trees have better defenses against infection than older ones. Species makes a difference. Pines are known for pitch tubes as a defense agains bark beetles.

Not much help, I know. Maybe you can start your own experiments, the expanding foam sounds like a good idea.

I will point out that young American chestnut trees grow just fine until they get to the age where their bark starts to fissure. That's when the blight gets in and kills them back. Not a really big opening. We've smeared mud into bore holes, but there's no evidence whatsoever that it does any good.

[Tom]

I have an opinion, for what it's worth.  Those holes seem to do better when sealed from the inside out.  Pine is great for sealing a wound like that.  It seems that, when we seal one from the outside in, we push stuff into the wound.  An increment borer makes such a small hole that I would guess the tree is saying to itself, "What was that?"  Probably like us getting a mosquito bite.

[WDH]

I agree, Tom.  I don't think that it hurts the tree much.  In fact, I have never been slapped by a tree when using an increment borer.  Since I have done it hundreds of times and never got slapped, that must be conclusive evidence that it is OK .

[SwampDonkey]

Some of us just put the core back into the hole. 

[ID4ster]

The main reason that I take an increment core is to analyze it back at the office for MAI and PAI calculations and any history that the tree can show. Putting it back into the tree makes it difficult to do that work. I've gone back and looked at trees that I've bored a few years before and haven't seen any problems. Hardwoods heal over and conifers pitch out and then heal over. The veneer buyers in a few years may not want to see that hole show up but then I don't bore many or any trees that show that type of potential.

[SwampDonkey]

The dominant stand trees are usually the predominant trees bored, followed by co-doms or intermediate trees. Suppressed trees are not usually recommended for boring unless you need to find representation in your permanent sample plots or forest development survey. I can see and interpret anything I need to know in the bush. We don't often bore hardwoods as much as we bore softwoods here. I will bore a few just to confirm things on occasion.

And I digress........Our Site Classification Manual doesn't even have data from hardwoods.  It was a pretty ship-shod effort to put together because of funding constraints as I recall. Even so, it is pretty good at keying out TU (treatment units) based on soil and vegetation. I think a more thorough ecological classification is being developed, although I think it is mostly restrained to the Fundy Model Forest at the moment. A big question is whether it will ever be used, or sit on a shelf to collect dust.

[WDH]

I bored many trees at stump height.  That way, you did not have to estimate the number of years till the tree reached DBH or your boring height.  You had to get on your knees to do it, but I was young back then.  Boring at stump height requires you to go in a an angle (so the handle does not hit the ground), but that eliminates the issue of damage to a veneer other high quality log.

[Pilot]

The latest info on pruning says don't put anything on the cut stub; that if you paint it over with some kind of sealant you will make a protected site for the fungus that has landed on it already.  The fungal spores land on it almost instantly; you can't cover it fast enough because there are thousands of spores in every cubic foot of air.  The best thing is to let it dry out, or pitch over, which will in itself prevent decay.

I presume the same applies to increment bore holes.  And if it doesn't dry very quickly because it is a small hole with moisture, it will pitch up, especially with Doug fir and pines, and this natural defense is probably better than anything we could come up with.

Also, if you try to inject something, you will need a needle of some sort to fill the hole from the back.  Otherwise you won't get anything in there very far before it plugs up.

The foregoing applies to conifers; hardwoods may be different.

[WDH]

I agree pilot.  We have been boring trees for decades with no ill effects to the health of the tree. 

[mdvaden]

The latest info on pruning says don't put anything on the cut stub; that if you paint it over with some kind of sealant you will make a protected site for the fungus that has landed on it already.  The fungal spores land on it almost instantly; you can't cover it fast enough because there are thousands of spores in every cubic foot of air.  The best thing is to let it dry out, or pitch over, which will in itself prevent decay.

I presume the same applies to increment bore holes.  And if it doesn't dry very quickly because it is a small hole with moisture, it will pitch up, especially with Doug fir and pines, and this natural defense is probably better than anything we could come up with.

Also, if you try to inject something, you will need a needle of some sort to fill the hole from the back.  Otherwise you won't get anything in there very far before it plugs up.

The foregoing applies to conifers; hardwoods may be different.

The cans of expanding foam have a skinny straw similar to WD 40 can spray tubes. I saw a small brass tube at the hardware store that was slightly bigger, and the foam can straw could go into the brass tube, and that brass tube all the way into the bored hole.

The brass tube could be pullled out as the foam was injecting, and the foam would seal every nook and cranny air tight.

I may try one just for fun someday.

The trees are probably fine with the small hole. Besides, the cambium will probably close up on the hole in a year or two anyway.

[Pullinchips]

I was going to say exactly what piolot said, about the spores hitting instantly and infecting the tree.  I also agree about not sealing wounds.  Pines unless it is a very slow growing tree or possibly unhealty around here they seal up the next day with resin.  Hardwood i don't know i never bore them?
But i think that leaving it open is no more of a danger to the tree than the spot where last years ice storm broke a branch off.  But you can argue who cares if the brach rots and it with take decades to run dowm to the main bole of the tree from the top where as a borer hole is already in the most valuable log.  As far as boring in the stum you would have to have a longer borer because no you have to go through all that but swell, and also the rings will be larger because the but grows a little faster than the rest as it swells larger than the main bole.  I agree i with whoever said it about not boring a veneer quality tree.  I would not purpossfully bore a 28" perfectly straigt pine unless there was no other tree availible in the same age class and dominance.  There are always dominant trees that do not have the perfect form or make saw logs, or if they do they may need to be jump butted, or a large pulpwood tree, these make perfect boring trees as the quality of lumber is not being degraded much or none.  Then again i know no forester who buys pine that ges around every tree looking for increment borer holes and when he finds one adjusts his bid accordinly.  It is not known untill that tree is cut into boards and the lumber grader down grades it because it has a quarter inch hole through it!

-nate

[Jeff]

What comments are there in regard to boring oaks where there may be the risk of oak wilt?

[Texas Ranger]

Best of my knowledge, oak wilt is spread by infection from a bark beetle, or from root grafting.  If an increment borer is being used in oak wilt area, it might be extra cautious to treat with alcohol before the next tree.  The instrument, that is, not the user.

[WDH]

If you don't immediately remove the borer in an oak after you take the core, it becomes stuck and very difficult if not impossible to remove.  When that happens, you have to treat the operator with alcohol too.

[SwampDonkey]

If you bore enough of those hardwood in a day, it will sure give you a good work out.

[WDH]

Have you ever heard the call of the rare spotted-increment-borer while in the woods?  I only hear it when I worked with a partner who was on an adjoining cruise line.  I have never seen one, only their their call.  It goes something like this, "Wrack, Wrack, Wrack, Wrack".  Continues for a minute or so, then ceases.  I am sure you foresters out there have heard the call of the spotted-increment-borer, right? .

[beenthere]

Heard that call a lot when I was part of a "silvical seducers" team. 
But 'screach, screach, screach' was heard too. 

[SwampDonkey]

I think a lot of grunting and flatulence was involved to.

[WDH]

Yes beenthere, it might be more of a screach than a whrack.  Now there are two of us that have heard the cry of the rare spotted-increment-borer.

[Pullinchips]

I too remember something sounding like that in the woods.  Kind oflike a screech-knock, screech-knock, screech-knock, though when i heard it a few years ago.
 

-Nate

[WDH]

I knew that I would hear from you on this, Pullinchips  .

[Pullinchips]

They must be rare only several have heard its call and no sightings among dozens of foresters on this site with countless hours in the woods.  Almost at the ivory bill status as far as sightings go!.

-nate

[beenthere]

And the Ivory Bill status is back to zero now.??........guess it turned out to be a Pileated.??..sure caused some short-term excitement tho, and that area of AR to become popular and probably it rec'd a good injection of outside money to help their economy..

[Pullinchips]

Is that the status now back to zero, i thought that  they had two known birds or something like that and that USFW was buying up land in the bottom.  Wow some turn this thread has taken. 

-Nate

[firstwoodswalker]

I recall one of my co-workers reporting that the sound being made by his increment borer was apparently mistaken by a whitetail buck during rutt for something he wanted to get a closer look at.  He said the buck came running in toward the noise and changed course within only a few yards before reaching him.  Both were startled at the time and later he considered the possibility of making a device to sell as a buck call that would recreate the sound.  Has anyone else out there had similar experiences that would lend credibility to my friends story?

[WDH]

I have bored many hundreds of trees, but I never called up a buck before.  I can't imagine what a buck would be drawn to from that rachety, raspy sound, but you never know....... .

[SwampDonkey]

Ermm dunno  I was once walking through brush cut in thinnings, making lots of noise. As I stood at a sample plot a buck chased a doe up to within 5 meters of me. This was late august. I think some of those 'stemmy' old bucks get curious and have to check that no young buck is trespassing in their harem.