Author Topic: Tree age (Read 1621 times)

flatrock · « **on:** March 14, 2007, 07:55:17 pm »

I have a very large black oak. The state forestry department was out on the property so I asked if they could measure it. It was 11'-6-1/2" circumference, 78 feet tall, and the crown spread was 93'. I was curious if anyone might hazard guess as to how old it might be. It is not growing in cove/hollow or a creek bottom but is in a flat area up around 600' elevation near the orignal homestead site fully exposed to the sun in cherty ground. Soil site index is listed as 70 for Black oak. Its not growing in the optimal forest area of the property so my suspicion is it must have grown slowly over the years. Im guessing its at least 100 years old but am curious if it could be may 150 to 200 years old?

Hi-Country Orange · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2007, 09:07:19 pm »

flatrock there is one way to tell for sure, break out the saw

flatrock · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2007, 09:21:38 pm »

I dont have a saw big enough to cut it. Knowing my luck I would try & cut it with a sub-standard saw and it would end up falling on me. Any tree that big gets a pass from me. In this neck of the woods most trees dont make it to big 45" dbh. I would feel sick if I cut it.

WDH · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2007, 09:34:48 pm »

Where is your neck-of-the-woods?

flatrock · « **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2007, 09:56:33 pm »

Eastern Ozarks really the Ozark foothill region of Arkansas

Riles · « **Reply #5 on:** March 14, 2007, 10:17:53 pm »

Probably older than 50 and younger than 500. Not much help, huh?

Unfortunately there is no reliable way to age a tree by looking at it. You could cut down the one next to it if it were the same species and size, but even that might be way off. The only way to get a good number is to count the rings. Short of cutting it down, that means using an increment borer, and it assumes the heart hasn't rotted out, which is more likely as the tree ages. Punching holes in trees isn't good for them either, if you're in a preservationist state of mind.

Brian Beauchamp · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2007, 01:59:50 pm »

Have you thought about seeing if it may be a state champion tree?

http://mdc.mo.gov/forest/IandE/MOChampionTrees/index.htm

...state agency links are 'legal' to post on here, aren't they?

Riles · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2007, 02:55:55 pm »

Arkansas doesn't seem to have a list of champion trees published, but the tree only scores a 239. Missouri's state champion is 320. The National champ is in Connecticut at 322 inches around, 86 feet high, and 105 foot crown for 434 points.

Still a nice sized tree though.

WDH · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2007, 03:55:20 pm »

Arkansas does have a champion tree list:

http://www.forestry.state.ar.us/education/native_trees.pdf

However, the listing for black oak is blank. So, it might be the champion if no other has been nominated. You should nominate it, Flatrock.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #9 on:** March 15, 2007, 05:03:54 pm »

I remember marking some big red oak about 30 miles from Gettysburg, PA. One of the red oaks was 32" dbh. I figured that was there a long time, maybe even when they had that little falling out there in Gettysburg. A ring count showed it was only 75 years old.

The rapid growth was due to having been an undesirable species for most of its life, and growing on a limestone outcrop. Red oak never came into its own until the mid 1970s. All the tulip poplar had been removed from the stand, since it had value.

The point is that current conditions do not necessarily represent past conditions.

ID4ster · « **Reply #10 on:** March 15, 2007, 06:02:43 pm »

You would need to use an increment borer and go in as far as you can. A 14 or 16 inch borer would let you go in far enough to make a reasonable projection back to the center. What you need to see is if the tree grew at a fairly steady rate or if it went through good and bad decades. Also at the center of the core you would be able to see how the tree was growing at that point and that would give you a better projection back to the center. Don't take a core sample of the last few inches and use that for the projection since the tree could have easily slowed down in radial growth by that time. Unfortunately a lot of environmental organizations do that and that's how they come up with a tree being a few thousand years old when its only 5-8 hundred at best. As for the core sample itself don't worry. Taking a core sample one time is no worse than tapping a maple tree year after year. The tree will heal back up just don't put the core sample back in the tree. Take it home and show it to the children and grandchildren.

WDH · « **Reply #11 on:** March 15, 2007, 06:16:09 pm »

Yes. Taking an increment core will not hurt the tree.

beenthere · « **Reply #12 on:** March 15, 2007, 07:22:31 pm »

Just depends on what the definition of "hurt" is.

Boring will affect the tree, as to the quality of the wood that will now have a borer hole in it.
There will be a path for bacteria and such things to enter the borer hole.

But, I don't think the tree will say "ouch", nor die from being bored just standing there.

I'd worry more about boring it deep and having the increment borer bit break off and stay in the tree. That's not fun.

But boring is about the only way to age the last 14" or so of its growth, that I could think of.

Brian Beauchamp · « **Reply #13 on:** March 15, 2007, 08:09:28 pm »

Quote from: WDH on March 15, 2007, 03:55:20 pm

Arkansas does have a champion tree list:

http://www.forestry.state.ar.us/education/native_trees.pdf

However, the listing for black oak is blank. So, it might be the champion if no other has been nominated. You should nominate it, Flatrock.

...I completely missed that he said the he was from the AR part of the Ozarks...assumed it was MO...

flatrock · « **Reply #14 on:** March 15, 2007, 09:25:33 pm »

You guys are correct there is no Black Oak champion tree in Arkansas. I have nominated it though if accepted I dont know how long it will last. Most of the really big trees are in south Arkansas. Im not sure if Black Oaks grow in the bottoms like cherry barks, maybe I'll get lucky. It is bigger than the current Texas champion Black Oak.

WDH · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2007, 03:42:46 pm »

The Georgia champion scored 405 points and is just shy of 7 feet in diameter, so they get big.

Yours would score 240 points. That is a really nice tree. Pics?

flatrock · « **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2007, 09:37:09 pm »

WDH, unfortunately, I dont have any good recent up close photos. But the two links show the tree. The first one you can see the old hay barn on the side which was built in 55' from timber milled on the property. The barn is actually quite large. In the second photo the tree is further back on the right. The other two trees on the left are some post oaks I think they're around 32" and the Black oak is 45-46". When I get some better pics I'll post them.

tree 1

tree 2

WDH · « **Reply #17 on:** March 16, 2007, 11:27:53 pm »

Nice cedar on the right there too, flatrock. Looking for champions is a hobby of mine. I have a champion 10 feet from the back of my patio (I know, I need to post a pic). Bet this one is one (hopefully there is no grammar penalty for two one's in one sentence. Uh oh, here we go again) that many of y'all don't know much about. Bumelia lanuginosa. Gum bumelia. Also called chittamwood.

WDH · « **Reply #18 on:** March 16, 2007, 11:32:17 pm »

Hey flatrock. Are you close to Hot Springs or Little Rock? I get over there a lot (was there this week in fact). I would sure love to see that tree.

flatrock · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2007, 07:59:56 am »

Sorry, WDH the property is located near the Missouri border. I think a couple of hundred miles from LR or Hot Springs.

SPIKER · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2007, 10:54:03 pm »

I need to take a closer look at one of the trees I have on my place (actually it is a fench row tree but seems to be looking like one of those to me, I KNOW it is an OAK has SMALL little acorns (about size of a marble) small leaves which are pointed & deeply cut. I have a bark pic in my gallery I believe.

Mark M

WDH · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2007, 12:03:29 am »

Are there two sizes of leaves? The upper ones in the sun real deeply cut and the lower ones about hand-sized in shape (or larger) and irregularly shaped? If you dig into the bark a little bit with a knife, is the inner bark very bright yellow to yellow orange? Does the leaves have little tufts of hairs where the leaf veins branch off the midrib when viewed from the underside? Is the leaf petiole hairy?

So many questions......................

When you say small leaves, how small?

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Author Topic: Tree age (Read 1621 times)