Illinois man gets "busted" by revenuers for veggy oil car, interesting read.

[Daren]

http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2007/03/02/news/local_news/1021491.txt  If you can't or don't want to open the link I will sum it up. A local man has a diesel car he converted to run on used frying oil, everyone thought it was cool and they wrote a little article about him in the paper...someone from the Illinois Department of Revenue read the article and decided the feller wasn't paying enough taxes. They figured out how many miles he had driven on veggie oil, divided that number by how many miles per gallon his car gets...and sent officers out with a retroactive bill for unpaid "motor fuel tax". They gave him a $2500 bond and threatened him with a felony... I am not joking  . They sent 2 officers to beat on this 79 years olds door from the bureau of criminal investigations.

This has me mad on so many levels  . Taxation period is a sore subject with me, income, earned income, inheritance... That is 3 taxes on the same money, you make it they tax you, you stick it in the bank they tax your interest, you die they tax the money again before someone else gets it. I am not going to divert this thread too much on my tax angers, but don't care if someone else does. I have brought up the "gas tax" before when everyone was squawking about high gas prices. That is a set % of the price of gas, the more gas is at the pump...the more the tax. What a racket that is, politicians grandstanding and saying the oil companies are gouging the consumer and "They will do something about it!" and go back to D.C. and vote "Yea" on every tax bill that is in front of them.

I got off on a tangent. Here is another article about the same man and his trip to the state capitol in his car. http://www.heraldreview.com/articles/2007/03/02/news/local_news/1021539.txt . The last couple sentences in the article are priceless.

Larry Doll, director of legislative affairs for the department of revenue, told the committee that the department supports changes in the law.

"We just want to make it easy for people to pay taxes," Doll said.

[Quartlow]

Don't get me started on taxes!!     I don't mind paying the taxes so  much as how its wasted on fat lazy politicians who are only interested in lining their own pockets. Most times your voting choice is limited to the lesser of two evils.

The last lines of both articles are priceless

He's an example of ingenuity. Instead of being whacked on the head, he should be encouraged."

[Raphael]

  I'd say the officers are lucky they didn't get sent home in a box.  My Grandfather was a strong supporter of the Gov't but a far stronger supporter of the constitution (and very proud of what our fore father's had acheived in the fight against arbitrary taxation from England).  By age 79 he wouldn't have been to worried about consequences.

My goal once the house is paid for is to drop my income to the point I only make enough to pay the property taxes.  
  But I wouldn't mind getting filthy rich and spending every penny on returning this country to a constitutional representative democracy.  

[footer]

I have brought up the "gas tax" before when everyone was squawking about high gas prices. That is a set % of the price of gas, the more gas is at the pump...the more the tax.

The gas tax is a set amount per gallon. Federal 18.4 cents per gallon, and state taxes vary by state and wether it is diesel or gas, but still so much per gallon, not a % of the price. Gas Taxes

[Daren]

I stand corrected, it not so much % based as I thought, my ignorance on the subject aside... from your link it is plenty high. (what do I know I am Amish and don't pay motor fuel tax, or $78 for the plates on each truck and $54-$100 per plate for trailers   , just stirring the pot I'm not Amish I guess I should know the tax laws  )


 Illinois    19    21.5    Plus 6.25% sales tax and .3 % tax for underground storage tank fund, and other local sales and gasoline taxes. Diesel fuel taxes are 27.5 cpg for commercial highway users.

$.19 per gallon + 6.25% sales tax+ .3% "and other local sales and gasoline taxes" ? + 18.4 cents federal. That is roughly $.40 on $2.00 gas. 20% of the cost just for sticking their hand into my pocket is no small amount.... and if you don't pay it like the guy in the articles they send someone knocking with a bill 

[Ron Wenrich]

This is one reason that the government isn't pushing alternative fuels.  I brought this up to my representative way back in the '70s when the Arabs put it to us.  They were talking about liquefying coal with huge subsidies to the coal industry. 

My point was that the government can control a few coal companies, but would have a DanG hard time controlling a bunch of people making home brew in the back yard.  He didn't disagree, just told me that ethanol was unproven technology.     He lost the next election.

Our road taxes are pretty high.  We have more miles of highway in PA than all other states, with few exceptions.  Someone's got to pay for them.  Its either fuel tax, tolls, or car tax.  What are the other choices?

[rbhunter]

Now we all know we have to pay taxes. How else can the politicians waste so much money on pork to get re-elected.

[bull]

We are all in an Agriculture based buisness Sawmills/logging !!!  All acts of forestry and lumbering are agriculture..... Ag fuel is tax exempt !!!! The only thing you have to do is buy your fuel from companies that are aware or have been made aware by you.....

Direct farm produced to use is exempt....
If the vehicle is used for a nonAg function at any time then you are not exempt.

Some states have a road use fuel tax.... If you are transporting for Ag you are exempt

[Ron Wenrich]

That may work if you're small.  We have 3 tractors, 10 trailers, and 2 knuckleboom trucks.  All we haul are logs, lumber, firewood, chips and sawdust.  We also travel to several states.  I can hear that conversation with the DOT guys or a cop about how we are exempt. 

Our off road usage is tax exempt.

[thurlow]

I farmed for 40-plus years;  off-road fuel was tax exempt;  the fuel that went into my trucks was taxed.  Used on and off-road gasoline; same for diesel;  meant 4 fuel tanks and you DanG well better keep it straight. 

[Jeff]

In Michigan yes, your sawmill fuels, offroad, such as for the fork trucks, steam cleaners or what ever is exempt. Not the fuel that goes down the road. You get caught with offroad fuel in your tank and you'll wish you had paid the tax instead.

[Ianab]

The NZ system is pretty complicated with regard to this.
Diesel fuel is NOT taxed at the pump, becasue a lot of it goes into offroad machinery. If you run a diesel truck it MUST have a hub meter and you pay tax on that reading, so many cents per km based on the weight of the truck. If it's a car or pickup you can pay tax based on odometer reading. You just have to go to a postoffice and buy a sticker, and the number on it better be higher than your speedo reading if you get pulled over.

That means if you full your diesel car up with homebrew vege oil, you still pay the tax.

Petrol is taxed at the pump, so you dont have to worry about odometer readings in a petrol vehicle, but if you use a lot of gas in offroad or power equipment you can actually claim back the tax at the end of the year as long as you keep your paperwork in order.

So there is not many ways you can avoid tax 

Looking at it another way, the tax is supposed to pay for the roads ( is suspect a lot of the money gets diverted to other things - but thats a different subject) so a guy with homebrew fuel isn't paying anything for the use of the road. I guess thats where the revenue guys are coming from.

I think I would get into a similar grey area if I filled my car up with homemade ethanol. It's legal for me to make it, just not sell it, but I wouldn't be paying any road tax. I'm not sure what the local rules actually say about that, but I'm guessing they would have some way of taxing me   

Cheers

Ian

[thurlow]

In Tennessee, the tax people have authority that other agencies don't have;  a few years ago, I was taking down a tent after the church's annual Fall Festival.  My diesel pick-up was in the church parking lot........well off the road.  Fellow in a state vehicle drove slowly by; came back in a few minutes and pulled off.  He sat on my tail-gate and talked to an old man who was watching me work.   I eventually went over there; he introduced himself (employee of the state tax agency, fuel tax divison) and asked if I minded if he pulled a fuel sample from my tank.  "You DanG right I mind"..........there'd never been a drop of colored fuel put in the truck, but I resented the idea.  I asked about penalities..........minimum $1000 for any untaxed fuel in the truck, but...........bigger fine than that if I didn't allow him to pull the sample.  I'd never heard of such, but told him to go ahead and do it.  All my redneck friends........and people on other forums I frequented at the time............. told me there was no way he could do that.  Talked to a friend who is an attorney, not only could he do that, he could come to my shop and pull samples from any vehicles and any storage tanks.  The sheriff or state police can't come on my property without witnessing a crime or getting a judge-signed warrent, but these tax people can come and go as they please.  After that, I started seeing their vehicles at the local auction barns on occasion;  there were 4 weekly auctions within about 100 miles and at one time or another I sold cattle to all of them;  most of the farmers used diesel pickups to pull their goosenecks.  They caught a few folks and made believers out of the rest........

[SwampDonkey]

See this highlighted line? The government has gotten away with so much over the years, they have added this little nickel and dime item. It's called an assessment fee. You'd think the property tax would be paying the assessment costs wouldn't you? There are a lot of these nickel and dime fees that people pay and not even aware of them.  If you question it they say it's a cost of assessment. You say, that cost is in your assessment. They repeat the same line like a broken record.

[stonebroke]

The gas tax is a set amount per gallon. Federal 18.4 cents per gallon, and state taxes vary by state and wether it is diesel or gas, but still so much per gallon, not a % of the price. Gas Taxes

[stonebroke]

I have brought up the "gas tax" before when everyone was squawking about high gas prices. That is a set % of the price of gas, the more gas is at the pump...the more the tax.

The gas tax is a set amount per gallon. Federal 18.4 cents per gallon, and state taxes vary by state and wether it is diesel or gas, but still so much per gallon, not a % of the price. Gas Taxes

Maybe in your state but not in the great vampire state of NY.

Stonebroke

[Daren]

Looking at it another way, the tax is supposed to pay for the roads ( is suspect a lot of the money gets diverted to other things - but thats a different subject) so a guy with homebrew fuel isn't paying anything for the use of the road. I guess thats where the revenue guys are coming from.

That is exactly why they came after him...but as you said too the money doesn't all go to the roads it is piddled away and then some on other ridiculous things, I won't go into all that either.(and ours roads still stink) I wonder how much $ was spent in resources and man hours to get this guy to pay up the $244.24 , 10X that 20X ? And it is not near over yet. I understand they have to make an example and set a president for basis of law to stop the homebrew fuels and make sure they get their tax money. There has to be user fees to support infrastructure, you use the roads you have to help maintain them.

I just think they shot themselves in the foot by picking on a 79 year old man, especially since from what I can gather from the articles there is not yet a taxation plan in place for the fuel he was using. Just permitting and fees for suppliers. I'm sure they will get all that lined out soon, and make sure they can tax homebrew fuels.

I guess the moral of the story is don't let the newspaper write an article on your veggie car...or your still in the back yard, somebody will come knocking.

[LOGDOG]

   Wow ... unreal. I'm with you Daren on pretty much everything you said. I need to look an article up that I had found on the net. It stated that every man woman and child in a household is entitles to produce and use up to 1100 gallons of biodiesel annually and pay ZERO ROAD TAX. That's right. I'll see if I can find it. It commented that the collection of that tax for now is based on the honor system as there has not been an accurate way to track it up to this point.

   One thing that most people forget is that consumers ultimately control price fluctuations. The problem with fuel is that the general public will not stand up in masses and boycott the gas stations because they need to get to work to pay for the sea of bills that the average American has. Yet they go to work and earn a living to pay their first bill (income tax -taken immediately before the check is handed to them. Those tax dollars are then promptly spent by the government frivolously including rebuilding and subsidizing countries like IRAN and IRAQ where gas is a minute 40 cents per gallon. How's that make you feel? Yes, yes - we have much to be thankful for. I know this. But this subject always lights that fire in me.

LOGDOG

[SwampDonkey]

The whole thing would fall apart in court in my mind. Just hope the old guy didn't confess to the amount he consumed in the vehicle. All he has to do is say 'prove how much I burned, when I started and prove that I never used taxable diesel at any time.' No case.

[Don_Papenburg]

Ron a few years ago Illinois was No 3 in road miles . Calif. was no one Tex. was no two  .  What the heck does Illinois need that many road miles for It ain't big enough to be pushing thebigest lower 48 states on road miles .

 There is a lot to be said for  shut up  act dumb.    Years ago an old guy told me If I wanted to keep my money when I went to the state fair I should put it in my mouth and keep my mouth shut.    If you arn't payin taxes on somthing don't tell anyone .

[PB Logging]

One must factor in the fact that we here in IL have a former governor who is a felon and live in a state taht is bankrupt on so many levels...

Illinois is (someone please correct me if I am wrong here) the 5th most burdened state with regards to taxation and government.

I am constantly at odds wtih the IL Brown Shirts that hide behind their badges.  All the places in the world that I have had the opportunity to live/work/visit.  IL is clearly the ugliest...

All this is meant to support that if anybody anywhere was to get busted for veggy oil in a car Illinois is the place.


Make it a safe day!!!

[Don P]

We had a biodiesel bust here a few months ago. These guys are anti American scum. The agent is now harassing more people and bragging. I'm sorry shoot him, prop him up, and shoot him again. I got no use for goobermint knuckleheads.

And thats all I got to say bout that 

[Bill]

My goal once the house is paid for is to drop my income to the point I only make enough to pay the property taxes. 
  But I wouldn't mind getting filthy rich and spending every penny on returning this country to a constitutional representative democracy. 

Raphael - I 'm beginning to think the representative part isn't working to well with special interests having just a few representatives that they need to "persuade" . I'm thinking maybe NH with its whole town meeting format might be better - those special interests would have to convince the whole town which methinks ain't gonna happen. Maybe some NH members could tell us how they like it there.

The whole thread gets my goat. It seems more effort is spent on making money/raising taxes and less on doing what's right for all.

First - roads - In PA our governor wants to sell the PA Turnpike - but keep the rates the same and no job cuts - and after we just took on $500 +- Million loan to add a lane in the eastern part of the state. Seems the state would get to keep the money they used to acquire and build the Turnpike and the ongoing road use tax would not go down - so we'd still be paying off the loan and taxes. Next he said that wasn't enough - now he wants to add I-80 across the top of the state - seems truckers don't like the toll road in the bottom of the state. He'd make it a toll road and then package it with the Turnpike for sale. Just imagine for a second that GM bought it ( or Microsoft or ) and after awhile they'd have it that you could only use it if you had a GM or MS or ( Course they also told us there'd be no commercials on cable TV back when they wanted to sell that idea ) Now I hear he wants to lease them both as they're a big problem. That's what govt is there for - a legal system, roads, education, etc. I think he's responding to the loss of ownership. So just how he expects us to believe that the lease company will maintain the jobs, maintain the road, maintain existing tolls, pay off the state and make a profit without raising tolls - well we're supposed to overlook that.

I'm too tired to think about this more tonight - more to come later

[farmerdoug]

Logdog,  It is 400 gallons per quarter or 1600 gallons of biodiesel per year for your own use.  But that is a federal allowance, States do not have to give that allowance.  I am sure your state would come looking too.  They like to check tanks at auctions here too.

If you did not want to pay the taxes then you should keep your mouth shut and not be telling everyone about it.  That is common sense as they can test your tanks but with no dye they would never know.  You can also voluntarily pay the road tax too, after all they never really would know what amount of your feul you really used, on what you think is reasonable.

As far as getting out of paying for roads our county road commission is thinking about asking for a millage to help pay for the roads in this county because the money from the state is drying up now too.  I guess we pay the state and the county then maybe work will get down.

Farmerdoug

[Daren]

One must factor in the fact that we here in IL have a former governor who is a felon and live in a state taht is bankrupt on so many levels...

And the same feds are sniffing around the current Governor  . Don't get me started on Illinois politics. Our Governor won't live in the Governors mansion... Springfield, central Illinois for those who are not familiar. He is too tied to Chicago (where all my gas taxes go to get wasted, want proof? Follow the money that put the former in jail, and the probably the current) The state capitol is "too rural, and out of touch", he just charters a helicopter to the capitol for photo shoots....well at least he is not tearing up the roads with his limo. The mansion sets empty except for the full time staff I pay for, as well as the 2nd full staff he keeps up north.
They better get cracking, that $244.24 they are trying to scare out of the old boy here in central Illinois won't go too far.

[LOGDOG]

FarmerDoug,

   Are you able to provide a link to where it says 400 gallons per quarter or 1600 gallons per year? That would be most helpful. Not that I currently run biodiesel, but it is an interest of mine. When I read the article I spoke of (last year) it stated 1100 gallons. I'll see if I can find it. Yours is better though without a doubt. Hope you can provide a reference. That would be great.

LOGDOG

[LOGDOG]

Here is some info I found. Notice the links to the IRS.GOV website. Interesting reading. Taken from a discussion on bio-diesel and road taxes. And I quote...

"USA BD Tax Laws
After hearing about bio-diesel taxes, I started looking around the net and the IRS's website to see what taxes are imposed on BD. According to IRS publication 510 ( http://www.irs.gov/publications/p510/index.html ) there is a $0.244/gallon tax on BD fuel above 400 gallons per year, but on publication 378 ( http://www.irs.gov/publications/p378/ar01.html ) there is a refund on methanol used to make BD for $0.50/gallon. Meaning the IRS will pay you $0.256/gallon to make BD, right? I haven't finished reading all the off shoots for these publications (instructions for form 720, etc), but if I'm interrupting these documents correctly the US government will pay you to make BD."


LOGDOG

[Tom]

I didn't think the use of Methanol in the production of Bio-diesel was gal. per gal.

[Don_Papenburg]

Yep, My understanding is that the methanol is used to "wash" the bio and most is recovered and reused for the next batch.

[OneWithWood]

Actually methanol is used as a carrier for the lye catalyst.  Useage is generally about 22% by volume and can be mostly recovered with further distilation of the glycerol by-product.  Water is used to wash the bio diesel to remove residual soaps in most processes.

[Murf]

Here in Cannuckistan they have a really foul twist to fuel taxes.  

They 'stack' the taxes, for instance, there is a Federal Exise tax on all fuel produced or imported, then on top of that is a set (Federal and Provincial) of road taxes, and then on top of all of that is the Federal sales tax called the GST (affectionately known here as the Gouge & Screw Tax).

So, in the end (pun intended   ) you are paying a tax on the tax which then taxed......  

We also have some screwy twists in the road tax column too, for instance, you can run off-road gasoline or diesel in a tractor, or a bulldozer, but not in a boat or an ATV or snowmobile. Clear as mug huh?

[BigTrev]

We call it 'Government Suction Tax'

[Ron Wenrich]

Our income taxes at the state and local level are the same way.  Its a flat tax with no deductions.  So, we are paying tax on our federal and FICA taxes, real estate taxes, sales taxes, etc.

[olyman]

logdog--i used to have the link--but after a few to many crashes---------------its 400 gal per qtr--per driving member of the household-----fed exempt--NOT STATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats were their getting the illinois guy--personally--if people were careful who they said what to---and i agree with the one person said to shoot those gestapo tax agents--id said nearly all of them have a agenda-----

[Don_Papenburg]

OWW ,  Will bio D burn without washing /removal of the glyceral .  I was thinking like in a heating stove not internal combustion.   My idea was to squeeze some canola oil and just use that to heat with insted of propane .  But it would be nice to not have to do all the extra work.

[OneWithWood]

Don, check out this site

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/altfuelfurnace/

You can burn straight veg oil after modifying the oil gun of your furnace, you can burn prewashed bio-d also but it may be hard on your equipment.  Washing is more time consuming than labor intensive.  Well washed and dryed bio diesel gives the best performance with the fewest hassles overall, IMHO.

[Don_Papenburg]

Thanks  One WW , 
I was wondering if it would burn without the extra steps. I used to have a no1 diesel burnner that just had a float and a burner pan that held a small amount of fuel and was lit then as the fuel burned off more was let in . when heat was needed the fan would kick in andthe  burn was faster and hotter. real simple  and I was thinking of something like that .  I would grow canola ,harvest ,squeeze , and then heat and relax. One could hope . I was thinking of less equipment to mess with.

[slowzuki]

Swampy you're doing pretty good, I was assessed this year for 400$ on a half finished pole barn/shop with no walls, no heat, no phone, etc.   The lumber is all sawed from my own property too.  On top of that, they don't even have the address right on the property    I want my 5$ assesment fee back!
Ken

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)


See this highlighted line? The government has gotten away with so much over the years, they have added this little nickel and dime item. It's called an assessment fee. You'd think the property tax would be paying the assessment costs wouldn't you? There are a lot of these nickel and dime fees that people pay and not even aware of them.  If you question it they say it's a cost of assessment. You say, that cost is in your assessment. They repeat the same line like a broken record.

[SwampDonkey]

$5?!? 

If you have any camps or sheds on the back on your woodlot, just keep your mouth shut. 














My woodlot tax is less than $30

[OneWithWood]

Our county has ways to spot those little sheds.  They start out with the latest aerial surveys and go from there.

Big Brother is definately watching and there is no place to hide 

[SwampDonkey]

They have GIS and Orthophotos, but most of these assessors wouldn't know how to use it or how to interpret what they see. My cousin is an appraiser for the government.  They know the leased land if it has a camp, but not likely to know on private unless the word got out or if it's a 1/2-5 acre lot along a public road.

[slowzuki]

Luckily my father has access to the aerials for our area too and they are about 10 years out of date.  They got his garage from aerials back a while though.

Our county has ways to spot those little sheds.  They start out with the latest aerial surveys and go from there.

Big Brother is definately watching and there is no place to hide 

[SwampDonkey]

They most likely got the garage from just driving by. My cousin gets send out at different times to reassess properties. He was up this way back about 2004. I got a paper this summer from an appraiser left on the front steps. I filled it out and sent it in, taxes didn't change. I'll probably get a $200 rebate.