Illinois man gets "busted" by revenuers for veggy oil car, interesting read.

[Daren]

http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2007/03/02/news/local_news/1021491.txt  If you can't or don't want to open the link I will sum it up. A local man has a diesel car he converted to run on used frying oil, everyone thought it was cool and they wrote a little article about him in the paper...someone from the Illinois Department of Revenue read the article and decided the feller wasn't paying enough taxes. They figured out how many miles he had driven on veggie oil, divided that number by how many miles per gallon his car gets...and sent officers out with a retroactive bill for unpaid "motor fuel tax". They gave him a $2500 bond and threatened him with a felony... I am not joking  . They sent 2 officers to beat on this 79 years olds door from the bureau of criminal investigations.

This has me mad on so many levels  . Taxation period is a sore subject with me, income, earned income, inheritance... That is 3 taxes on the same money, you make it they tax you, you stick it in the bank they tax your interest, you die they tax the money again before someone else gets it. I am not going to divert this thread too much on my tax angers, but don't care if someone else does. I have brought up the "gas tax" before when everyone was squawking about high gas prices. That is a set % of the price of gas, the more gas is at the pump...the more the tax. What a racket that is, politicians grandstanding and saying the oil companies are gouging the consumer and "They will do something about it!" and go back to D.C. and vote "Yea" on every tax bill that is in front of them.

I got off on a tangent. Here is another article about the same man and his trip to the state capitol in his car. http://www.heraldreview.com/articles/2007/03/02/news/local_news/1021539.txt . The last couple sentences in the article are priceless.

Larry Doll, director of legislative affairs for the department of revenue, told the committee that the department supports changes in the law.

"We just want to make it easy for people to pay taxes," Doll said.

[Quartlow]

Don't get me started on taxes!!     I don't mind paying the taxes so  much as how its wasted on fat lazy politicians who are only interested in lining their own pockets. Most times your voting choice is limited to the lesser of two evils.

The last lines of both articles are priceless

He's an example of ingenuity. Instead of being whacked on the head, he should be encouraged."

[Raphael]

  I'd say the officers are lucky they didn't get sent home in a box.  My Grandfather was a strong supporter of the Gov't but a far stronger supporter of the constitution (and very proud of what our fore father's had acheived in the fight against arbitrary taxation from England).  By age 79 he wouldn't have been to worried about consequences.

My goal once the house is paid for is to drop my income to the point I only make enough to pay the property taxes.  
  But I wouldn't mind getting filthy rich and spending every penny on returning this country to a constitutional representative democracy.  

[footer]

I have brought up the "gas tax" before when everyone was squawking about high gas prices. That is a set % of the price of gas, the more gas is at the pump...the more the tax.

The gas tax is a set amount per gallon. Federal 18.4 cents per gallon, and state taxes vary by state and wether it is diesel or gas, but still so much per gallon, not a % of the price. Gas Taxes

[Daren]

I stand corrected, it not so much % based as I thought, my ignorance on the subject aside... from your link it is plenty high. (what do I know I am Amish and don't pay motor fuel tax, or $78 for the plates on each truck and $54-$100 per plate for trailers   , just stirring the pot I'm not Amish I guess I should know the tax laws  )


 Illinois    19    21.5    Plus 6.25% sales tax and .3 % tax for underground storage tank fund, and other local sales and gasoline taxes. Diesel fuel taxes are 27.5 cpg for commercial highway users.

$.19 per gallon + 6.25% sales tax+ .3% "and other local sales and gasoline taxes" ? + 18.4 cents federal. That is roughly $.40 on $2.00 gas. 20% of the cost just for sticking their hand into my pocket is no small amount.... and if you don't pay it like the guy in the articles they send someone knocking with a bill 

[Ron Wenrich]

This is one reason that the government isn't pushing alternative fuels.  I brought this up to my representative way back in the '70s when the Arabs put it to us.  They were talking about liquefying coal with huge subsidies to the coal industry. 

My point was that the government can control a few coal companies, but would have a DanG hard time controlling a bunch of people making home brew in the back yard.  He didn't disagree, just told me that ethanol was unproven technology.     He lost the next election.

Our road taxes are pretty high.  We have more miles of highway in PA than all other states, with few exceptions.  Someone's got to pay for them.  Its either fuel tax, tolls, or car tax.  What are the other choices?

[rbhunter]

Now we all know we have to pay taxes. How else can the politicians waste so much money on pork to get re-elected.

[bull]

We are all in an Agriculture based buisness Sawmills/logging !!!  All acts of forestry and lumbering are agriculture..... Ag fuel is tax exempt !!!! The only thing you have to do is buy your fuel from companies that are aware or have been made aware by you.....

Direct farm produced to use is exempt....
If the vehicle is used for a nonAg function at any time then you are not exempt.

Some states have a road use fuel tax.... If you are transporting for Ag you are exempt

[Ron Wenrich]

That may work if you're small.  We have 3 tractors, 10 trailers, and 2 knuckleboom trucks.  All we haul are logs, lumber, firewood, chips and sawdust.  We also travel to several states.  I can hear that conversation with the DOT guys or a cop about how we are exempt. 

Our off road usage is tax exempt.

[thurlow]

I farmed for 40-plus years;  off-road fuel was tax exempt;  the fuel that went into my trucks was taxed.  Used on and off-road gasoline; same for diesel;  meant 4 fuel tanks and you DanG well better keep it straight. 

[Jeff]

In Michigan yes, your sawmill fuels, offroad, such as for the fork trucks, steam cleaners or what ever is exempt. Not the fuel that goes down the road. You get caught with offroad fuel in your tank and you'll wish you had paid the tax instead.

[Ianab]

The NZ system is pretty complicated with regard to this.
Diesel fuel is NOT taxed at the pump, becasue a lot of it goes into offroad machinery. If you run a diesel truck it MUST have a hub meter and you pay tax on that reading, so many cents per km based on the weight of the truck. If it's a car or pickup you can pay tax based on odometer reading. You just have to go to a postoffice and buy a sticker, and the number on it better be higher than your speedo reading if you get pulled over.

That means if you full your diesel car up with homebrew vege oil, you still pay the tax.

Petrol is taxed at the pump, so you dont have to worry about odometer readings in a petrol vehicle, but if you use a lot of gas in offroad or power equipment you can actually claim back the tax at the end of the year as long as you keep your paperwork in order.

So there is not many ways you can avoid tax 

Looking at it another way, the tax is supposed to pay for the roads ( is suspect a lot of the money gets diverted to other things - but thats a different subject) so a guy with homebrew fuel isn't paying anything for the use of the road. I guess thats where the revenue guys are coming from.

I think I would get into a similar grey area if I filled my car up with homemade ethanol. It's legal for me to make it, just not sell it, but I wouldn't be paying any road tax. I'm not sure what the local rules actually say about that, but I'm guessing they would have some way of taxing me   

Cheers

Ian

[thurlow]

In Tennessee, the tax people have authority that other agencies don't have;  a few years ago, I was taking down a tent after the church's annual Fall Festival.  My diesel pick-up was in the church parking lot........well off the road.  Fellow in a state vehicle drove slowly by; came back in a few minutes and pulled off.  He sat on my tail-gate and talked to an old man who was watching me work.   I eventually went over there; he introduced himself (employee of the state tax agency, fuel tax divison) and asked if I minded if he pulled a fuel sample from my tank.  "You DanG right I mind"..........there'd never been a drop of colored fuel put in the truck, but I resented the idea.  I asked about penalities..........minimum $1000 for any untaxed fuel in the truck, but...........bigger fine than that if I didn't allow him to pull the sample.  I'd never heard of such, but told him to go ahead and do it.  All my redneck friends........and people on other forums I frequented at the time............. told me there was no way he could do that.  Talked to a friend who is an attorney, not only could he do that, he could come to my shop and pull samples from any vehicles and any storage tanks.  The sheriff or state police can't come on my property without witnessing a crime or getting a judge-signed warrent, but these tax people can come and go as they please.  After that, I started seeing their vehicles at the local auction barns on occasion;  there were 4 weekly auctions within about 100 miles and at one time or another I sold cattle to all of them;  most of the farmers used diesel pickups to pull their goosenecks.  They caught a few folks and made believers out of the rest........

[SwampDonkey]

See this highlighted line? The government has gotten away with so much over the years, they have added this little nickel and dime item. It's called an assessment fee. You'd think the property tax would be paying the assessment costs wouldn't you? There are a lot of these nickel and dime fees that people pay and not even aware of them.  If you question it they say it's a cost of assessment. You say, that cost is in your assessment. They repeat the same line like a broken record.

[stonebroke]

The gas tax is a set amount per gallon. Federal 18.4 cents per gallon, and state taxes vary by state and wether it is diesel or gas, but still so much per gallon, not a % of the price. Gas Taxes

[stonebroke]

I have brought up the "gas tax" before when everyone was squawking about high gas prices. That is a set % of the price of gas, the more gas is at the pump...the more the tax.

The gas tax is a set amount per gallon. Federal 18.4 cents per gallon, and state taxes vary by state and wether it is diesel or gas, but still so much per gallon, not a % of the price. Gas Taxes

Maybe in your state but not in the great vampire state of NY.

Stonebroke

[Daren]

Looking at it another way, the tax is supposed to pay for the roads ( is suspect a lot of the money gets diverted to other things - but thats a different subject) so a guy with homebrew fuel isn't paying anything for the use of the road. I guess thats where the revenue guys are coming from.

That is exactly why they came after him...but as you said too the money doesn't all go to the roads it is piddled away and then some on other ridiculous things, I won't go into all that either.(and ours roads still stink) I wonder how much $ was spent in resources and man hours to get this guy to pay up the $244.24 , 10X that 20X ? And it is not near over yet. I understand they have to make an example and set a president for basis of law to stop the homebrew fuels and make sure they get their tax money. There has to be user fees to support infrastructure, you use the roads you have to help maintain them.

I just think they shot themselves in the foot by picking on a 79 year old man, especially since from what I can gather from the articles there is not yet a taxation plan in place for the fuel he was using. Just permitting and fees for suppliers. I'm sure they will get all that lined out soon, and make sure they can tax homebrew fuels.

I guess the moral of the story is don't let the newspaper write an article on your veggie car...or your still in the back yard, somebody will come knocking.

[LOGDOG]

   Wow ... unreal. I'm with you Daren on pretty much everything you said. I need to look an article up that I had found on the net. It stated that every man woman and child in a household is entitles to produce and use up to 1100 gallons of biodiesel annually and pay ZERO ROAD TAX. That's right. I'll see if I can find it. It commented that the collection of that tax for now is based on the honor system as there has not been an accurate way to track it up to this point.

   One thing that most people forget is that consumers ultimately control price fluctuations. The problem with fuel is that the general public will not stand up in masses and boycott the gas stations because they need to get to work to pay for the sea of bills that the average American has. Yet they go to work and earn a living to pay their first bill (income tax -taken immediately before the check is handed to them. Those tax dollars are then promptly spent by the government frivolously including rebuilding and subsidizing countries like IRAN and IRAQ where gas is a minute 40 cents per gallon. How's that make you feel? Yes, yes - we have much to be thankful for. I know this. But this subject always lights that fire in me.

LOGDOG

[SwampDonkey]

The whole thing would fall apart in court in my mind. Just hope the old guy didn't confess to the amount he consumed in the vehicle. All he has to do is say 'prove how much I burned, when I started and prove that I never used taxable diesel at any time.' No case.

[Don_Papenburg]

Ron a few years ago Illinois was No 3 in road miles . Calif. was no one Tex. was no two  .  What the heck does Illinois need that many road miles for It ain't big enough to be pushing thebigest lower 48 states on road miles .

 There is a lot to be said for  shut up  act dumb.    Years ago an old guy told me If I wanted to keep my money when I went to the state fair I should put it in my mouth and keep my mouth shut.    If you arn't payin taxes on somthing don't tell anyone .