Any registered NC foresters on the forum?

[Riles]

I started researching the registration requirements and have come up with a catch-22. In order to work as a forester in NC, one must be registered. In order to be registered, among other things, one must have 6 years work experience.

Now I understand the first five years of experience are credited to your junior and senior years at a SAF accredited school. But by my interpretation, either I need to pick up a year's experience out of state or I have to find a job working for a real forester. There's no walking out of the graduation line and hanging up a consulting forester's shingle.

What am I missing?

[beenthere]

.................... There's no walking out of the graduation line and hanging up a consulting forester's shingle.

What am I missing?

Maybe nothing. Might be exactly why the 6 year requirement is on the books. 

[Riles]

I thought of that too, but I noticed at least some of the state foresters aren't registered foresters. Does that mean somebody else is always signing their paperwork?

[Ron Scott]

I'm not sure about your state, but public foresters, state or federal aren't required to be registered. I spent 38 years with the U. S. Forest Service as a forester before I became a registered and certified forester.

[Riles]

Seems odd that the state requires everybody but their own foresters to registered (feds excluded).

[SwampDonkey]

Most government forestry positions here when posted are asking for RPF registration, or eligibility. I believe 2 years of sponsorship from an RPF is required before you can write the exam in most provinces.

[Ron Scott]

The public foresters usually have established management direction with Agency specific standards and guidelines to follow and are trained to Agency expectations. They usually work under mentors to gain and forefill their experience requirements whereby foresters in the private sector don't have this luxury and must prove that they have the skills, knowledge, and ability to work and apply accepted forestry practices on their own.

[Tom]

Isn't that what the Bachelor of Science "award" is supposed to signify?

[SwampDonkey]

Isn't that what the Bachelor of Science "award" is supposed to signify?

Tom, you'd think so. That's what I feel like telling some people. You know, these feel good about themselves groups.  

[Riles]

Well on paper at least, it's pretty rigorous. A six hour test with a 35% fail rate for first time takers. Six years experience, letter of reference, background check, and 5 personal references, three of whom must already be registered NC foresters.

Makes you wonder how the first guy got in. 

[Brian Beauchamp]

Have you checked to see if they bypass the requirements if you are registered in another state? I believe some states will honor other states' registered forester requirements.

[Ron Scott]

A minimum of 5 years experience is usually required along with the BS degree. Public foresters are usually taken on as "trainees" and must go through a probationary period before they can "fly on their own".

SAF now has such a system for those not meeting the 5 years experience requirement whereby they can get a candidate certification and then receive full certifcation when they have completed the 5 years experience requirement.

I'm told that a number of states now endorse the SAF certifcation whereby making it easier to meet the specific state requirements.

With a BS degree and 46 years experience, I still don't feel that I know it all and one can't beat what is learned through experiences "on the ground".

[Riles]

NC does honor other state certifications if there is a reciprocal agreement. Louisiana does not certifiy or register their foresters, so that's a non-starter.

Lack of SAF certification doesn't prevent someone from working as or "calling oneself a forester." But in NC apparently, that's not true. What's missing from this discussion is what the real limitations are and why I was hoping to get a NC registered forester online. My email to the state board hasn't been answered so far.

Case in point. My sister and BIL bought some acreage to build a house on. I could certainly look at the land and make recommendations on what to do, but I don't think I could charge them a fee. Nor could I work the sale of any timber coming off, which is ironic, since they could legally do that on their own.

Shootin' in the dark here and hoping for a spotlight.

[Ron Scott]

Check the roster of registered foresters in NC in the following site and see if there is one near you that you can discuss the situation with and provide you with more specific information on the state level.

http://www.members.aol.com/ncbrf/index.htm

[Don P]

You might want to check with the folks at the NCSU School of Forestry also;
http://www.cnr.ncsu.edu/for/welcome.html

This is drifting off topic but with the exception of financial audit and minimum capital requirements that sounds like the same requirements for testing to be a building contractor there also. The state does not stop someone from building their own house but will not let someone without proven credentials call themselves a builder legally. It isn't fun breaking in, but is for a good reason.

The first guy grandfathered 

[Wudman]

I've been registered in North Carolina for about 15 years.  Under current law, one must have a BS or higher degree from an SAF accredited university, pass a written test, and have a minimum of 2 years experience....or pass a written exam and complete 6 or more years of active practice in forestry.  An Associates Degree is equivalent to one years experience. Completion of the junior year of curriculum in an approved forestry school is equivalent to 2 years, and completion of the senior year is equivalent to three years.  You may be issued a "forester in training" certificate if you have completed the educational requirements. 

One may be registered in North Carolina if registered in another state that has the same or substantially the same requirements.  The applicant must present a written application request to the State Board.

One is required to submit five references, pay the fee, and maintain continuing education credits to remain active.

Additionally, one must file an affidavit with the Board if practicing as a "Consulting Forester".  One must be registered to call themselves a "Forester" or "Registered Forester". 

Wudman

[Riles]

Ahh, here we go. Thanks for popping up.

From a practical standpoint, what are the restrictions on me as a soon-to-be graduate forester? I'll graduate this spring and move to NC from Louisiana this summer with a BS in Forestry from a SAF accredited 4 year school (although I did the program in two).

Can I work AS a forester without CALLING myself a forester? If I start XYZ Timber Cruising Company and mark timber for a couple years am I in violation of the law? And then apply for registration?

So what does the "forester-in-training" certificate do for you? Is that a bone the state throws you so you have a little credibility trying to get the experience in the scenario above?

My impression is that this is either a big fight over the use of the title forester, or the state is making sure everyone works for an experienced forester before starting out on their own. Since it's possible to become a forester without a university degree but lots of self study and 6 years of active practice in forestry, I tend towards the first impression.

[beenthere]

Now, after you go to all the school work of becoming a graduate in forestry, and then in a good business relying on your training and a few years experience, you will want to be a bit protective of who else calls themselves a forester. You won't want someone with a short-term correspondence course on the computer, or similar, taking business away from you because they then call themselves a forester, and think they know as much as you. You'll want to know they have the smarts and the experience to call themselves "foresters". Do you think every Forestry graduate in your class could leave the stage with his diploma and be a professional forester, making management decisions and do consulting work? Or will some practical experience be necessary?  Not easy to get that in a book, the classroom, or even at Forestry Summer Camp, I don't think. 

Many professionals have self-imposed and state-regulated criteria to protect their profession. Probably the forestry profession is trailing the others in this area.

I'm not arguing the timing of when you get "consulting" status, but I'd think it would not be when you have a brand new sheepskin, but later after you have some practical experience. There are no good, easy answers, IMO. 

Good luck to you in NC

[SwampDonkey]

The only trouble with that is it's not everyone that will have an opportunity to get a job under an RPF to get the experience. For some it tells them they have to leave the state for work and they may or may not be able to write the exam when the 5 or 6 years expire. I know when I went to University there were 250 in the class and no where near that was ever going to get a job in NB as forester under someone with RPF credentials. Now think of the number of folks graduating and seeking a job every year while the previous ones are still looking or left the province. I think another method would be to get some experience on your own or under someone, write the exam, and have random peer reviews of members starting 3 years after they get excepted into the association. They should show acquired recommendations and educational credits. Seems to me everyone has to follow the same laws as anyone else. I'd be prepared to challenge anyone in court that said I couldn't call myself a forester. If I'm not, then the University owes me some $$ I spent to get that degree. I detest suppression or repression.

[Tom]

You're right, beenthere.  There are no good, easy answers.

I understand the need to verify credentials   I also challenge the necessity of a State adding curriculum (experience) to the title that can't be achieved in the University System that teaches Forestry.  If it is necessary for the student to work under a Forester for an amount of time, it should be part of the School's curriculum, not an addendum by the State.

Now you get into the scenario of the credentials of the Master to teach the trainee.

Do Years really have anything to do with the knowledge, or is it the curriculum that makes one a Forester?

What does the University of North Carolina call their Forestry School, Forest Prep?

It's difficult enough to get kids through college with the light at the end of the tunnel being a sales job.  When you add the after school requirements to satisfy the State certification committee, how difficult will it be to get kids to spend dollars at the University to be blue collar and work with their hands. These Natural Science courses are peculiar in that they don't offer great wealth or many desk jobs.  Yet, they are needed by the Industry and the Country worse than Medical Doctors, Engineers and Politicians.

It seems to me that some smart, brilliant industry leader would eventually question why certification creating organizations would  think that a young fellow would want to spend $200,000 and the better part of his youth to find that he wasn't qualified for a $20,500 a year job in his chosen field.

There must be a better way.  There are some things State Governments must keep their hands out of and certification of Foresters seems to be one.

If a person works all of his formative years under a Forester and eventually feels that he can pass the same test as the College educated one, then he should be able to be called a Forester.  

Isn't it the knowledge that is important?

Not an answer to Swamp Donkey
he just got in before me.  

[Riles]

When I started this thread I had neither ulterior motives nor even career plans. I went to forestry school because the subject interested me and Uncle Sam was paying. One of my primary goals after retiring from the Air Force was NOT to have a 9-5 desk job. Being a semi-retired self-employed businessman appeals to me; I don't really need the money.

I understand professional standards (BS Electrical Engineering). I understand marketing (MS Management). I understand my own limitations (zero practical experience).

What I don't understand are the subtle nuances of being a registered NC forester. If I show up with my diploma and charge somebody to mark their timber, am I going to jail? Or should I start my own logging company and just cut the trees down?

[Ron Scott]

I don't think that you would go to jail, especially if you practice and apply good forestry with good ethics. I wouldn't worry about being registered until you can meet the specific requirements. You have the BS degree as your base and have met the education requirements to be called a forester. You just need to "intern" for awhile if you want to meet the registration requirements to aquire the credentials of a regesterd forester.

Become associated with other registered foresters in Consulting Forester Associations etc. in your area and you will find out that you will have a lot of help and advice to get you "on your way".





 

[Wudman]

I can't answer all of the nuances about the law.  Your request for information from the State Board of Registration is on target there.  With that said, from my interpretation, the status of "Forester in Training" is the appropriate first step for you, or pursue registration in another state that is honored in NC. 

The purpose of the registration law is to protect the public from unscrupulous operators.  This normally centers around unscrupulous timber buyers....and yes, the Board has become pretty protective of the use of the term "Forester".  Each year, there are a number of cases brought before the board for individuals using the term illegally (according to NC law).  Most of these cases simply result in a letter to the offender to stop using the title.  End of issue.

When I graduated from school, I had to serve my two years of experience prior to being registered.  Upon satisfaction of that requirement, I received my registration.  One thing that requirement does, is allows for peer review.  Ethics are paramount.  References are checked.  Through the years, I have provided references for a number of people that I knew.

To expand on Tom's comments....I, for one, support registration.  I now live in Virginia, and we have attempted, unsuccessfully, to gain registration here.  I think it adds credibility to the profession.  Most other professionals are licensed (doctors, lawyers, contractors, etc.)  One little quirk, without some type of licensing, a forester's ability to testify as an "expert witness" in a trial court has come into question.  With that said, there needs to be provisions for individuals without a BS degree to become licensed.....In my opinion, a BS degree is good for one thing.  It opens a door for someone to train you to real world experience. 

I had several friends in the last few years that were laid off jobs they had worked for 20+ years.  They were caught in one of the numerous merger / buyouts recently in the industry.  Under the new parent, the positions they occupied required a four year degree.  One was close to retirement age, and they let him stay on for about 12 months so he would receive full retirement benefits.  He went to work for himself and is now a contractor for the company....doing the same things he did as an employee.  For anyone to say these guys weren't qualified to do their jobs is ridiculous.

Wudman

[Riles]

So how did you gain your two years experience? Were you a forester-in-training? Was there any scenario in that two years where your signature wouldn't be acceptable and had to go to a supervisor who was an RF?

[Wudman]

The laws concerning the use of the term "Forester" were amended in NC in 1999.  I predated that by about 10 years.  During my 2 year training period, I was working in wood procurement.  I started consulting / land management in 1994. 

If you still have not received a response to your e-mail, try giving them a call.  The number is 919-847-5441.  Sorry I'm not more help.

Wudman

[Don P]

Not knowing more, do make contact and resolve it before going in, they don't play with my profession  .

[SwampDonkey]

If it's like the association here, those folks have regular day jobs and may not get back to you in a timely manner unless the association has a secretary who may or may not be able to reply. Some of the secretaries are quite knowledgeable and on the ball even if they aren't a forester.

[Riles]

For the curious among you, here is what I eventually found out:

There are no restrictions from performing any duties a forester performs. Whether a fresh graduate of a certified forestry school, or Joe Blow off the street, you can hire yourself out to perform "forestry." The only thing one cannot do is call oneself a forester, unless the test(s) is/are taken and passed, the appropriate experience recorded, and 5 upright citizens who are already registered foresters vouch for your integrity.

Guess I better try a little harder to find a job, I would starve trying to mark timber as a "forester trainee."