What wood Have I been sawing all day?

[SwampDonkey]

I agree its a red oak, but not sure of the species. Not familiar enough with them.

[WDH]

I got lunch bet on scarlet oak.

[SwampDonkey]

I have some young scarlet oak here and their leaves look just like red oak, except in the fall when they turn scarlet red. Red oak might have larger leaves here. Also, my white oak turns scarlet red too, but the leaves are definitely different shape. Red oak seems to be fairly frost hardy, although some planted up on Broadway in Grand Falls have some frost damage.

[WDH]

There are two distinguishing characteristics that separate scarlet oak and northern red oak leaves.  First, the depth of the sinus between the lobes in northern red oak does not extent more than half the depth to the midrib of the leaf.  In scarlet, that sinus is cut deep, past halfway to the midrib (similiar situation in pin oak and shumard oak).  There are also many more spines on the scarlet lobes, the lobes are very feathery and spiny.  Northern red oak lobes are less defined and not distinctly feathery with many spines.  Also, the petiole is much longer in scarlet, sometimes several inches long, while in northern red oak, the petioles are short little stubby things that may be only 1/8" to 1/4" long. 

On the bark, both have silver streaks that run up the bole.  In scarlet, the silver streaks are narrower and the contrast between the streaks and the furrows in between is not striking.  (Note the pic of the bark on the standing tree.  The color difference between the streaks and the bark in between is not sharply contrasting).   In northern red oak, the streaks are a good bit wider, and the furrows between the streaks are much darker, almost black in some instances, so that the contrast between the streaks and the intervening furrows is visually very striking.

The acorns are also very different.  Scarlet has an acorn cup the extends halfway up the side of the nut like a bowl and the edge of the bowl is distinctly fringed.  Also, in many cases, there will be several concentric rings around the point of the nut (but not always).  In northern red oak, the acorn cup is like a thin saucer, barely clasping the base of the nut, the cup is not distinctly fringed, and there are never any concentric rings around the tip of the nut.

This is probably more than anyone ever wanted to know about this, but I am somewhat of an oak nut.........if you know what I mean!

[WDH]

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=38

above is a website with an excellent description of northern red oak.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/DENDROLOGY/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=37

Now, here is scarlet oak.

[SwampDonkey]

I gotta get some dry leaf pictures.

[SwampDonkey]

Scarlet ID Pending, non typical.



red



white

 

[tonich]

White Oak (Nice to meet you! )

[WDH]

The middle leaves are the scarlet, right?  Seems to me that the top pic is northern red and the middle pic is scarlet, but that is not how you labeled them or I am reading it wrong? 

[SwampDonkey]

top is scarlet: dead leaves turn bronze from scarlet red, very colorful. These are non native to my region and were picked at Bear Island campground.

middle is red: dead leave is light brown, this tree in the yard always goes from green to brown.

bottom white: dead leaves turn bronze with a hint of red from a scarlet red, very colorful.

This why I say leaves can be so variable.

I also know that the leave shape you linked to as scarlet oak, can also fit black oak. Black oak also looks like red oak leaves.

If you go one step further and pick shade leaves of red oak in the forest then the lobes are almost none existent with just pointy "cat's nails" for lobes.



black oak

[WDH]

When you say "red oak" which one are you referring to?  Northern Red Oak? 

I am really suspicious that the top leaves  in the first pics you posted is scarlet oak.  They are definitely not typical.  Maybe their DNA got froze!

[SwampDonkey]

northern red, the only red oak native to NB. I've picked a lot of acorns off this tree and none have the concentric circles on the top of the acorn that are the signature of scarlet oak. Also, as I stated this tree does not have much red in the fall foliage, they go from green to orange-yellow to light brown when dead. This occurs in a short time. The cups are not deep on the acorns on this tree, deeper cups are characteristic of scarlet.

We'll reserve judgment on the scarlet oak leaves for now until I get to the park to see the source. The majority of evidence on the internet suggests that this is not scarlet. Possibly a hybrid. I may have been misinformed, but I was given this info from 2 different sources that do not know one another.

[WDH]

Yep, It might be a hybrid.  Things don't always fit nicely in the pigeon holes, do they?

[tonich]

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Scarlet ID Pending, non typical.

Is Pending over!? 

[SwampDonkey]

Toni, no. I have to see the parent trees in late summer to get a look at the acorns. They should have concentric rings on the tip of the acorn. All I know is that the texture and color of the dead leaves are a bit different and the fall color on those are scarlet red. Red oak isn't very spectacular in fall color.

[SwampDonkey]

Toni,

Ever see the leaves on a basswood seedling? Looks like wild geranium or buttercup leaves. When they get older they take on the typical heart-shape. Leaves are generally asymmetrical with the lower lobe on one side lower than the other. This is not always the case.

[tonich]

Toni,

Ever see the leaves on a basswood seedling? Looks like wild geranium or buttercup leaves. When they get older they take on the typical heart-shape. Leaves are generally asymmetrical with the lower lobe on one side lower than the other. This is not always the case.

Yes, I have. Just as you’ve describe it!
--------

Note:
Lime is an important oak spouse here. Up to 10 – 15 % of composition is a very desired amount. There are even some unmixed basswood low-pole woods, but those are secondary stands, more a product of human activity, than a natural factor.

The following Limes are natively spread in Bulgaria:

Small-leaved Lime
Large-leaved Lime
Silver Lime

[WDH]

Swamp,

When you get those acorns, notice that the scarlet oak acorn has a cup that is bowl shaped covering about half the nut and the border of the bowl is fringed.  The Nothern red acorn has a very shallow saucer shaped cut.  You will not always see the concentric rings on the tip of the scarlett oak acorn.  Sometimes it is not there or very hard to see.  However, the acorn cups between the two species are very distinctly different. 

You have tonich's interest picqued ( ), so let us know what you find out.

[SwampDonkey]

I wish Toni had brought up the fact that they call basswood lime or lime-tree in Europe. I would have been armed and ready when I tried to convince Gerald he had a basswood board, and not a citrus lime. We've worked it out since, after i found a reference from the US Forest Service and emailed him.

[beenthere]

SD

What??