Author Topic: Biofuel (Read 6372 times)

Fla._Deadheader · « **on:** January 28, 2007, 10:19:18 am »

Since there are a very few members that are making or experimenting with Biofuel, I would like to share some info.

On a Forum I frequent, There is much activity on Planting an oilseed crop in India. The farmers are very poor. There is a country-wide scam taking place, where the farmers sign up for GOVT. assistance, and IF they receive compensation (Subsidy) for growing crops, the Govt. HAS the right to take it, because they funded it.

Farmers get a very small payment.

Seems that the PETRO OIL Conglomerate has the authority, OR under the table approach, to stall any projects started by the farmers. Govt. will NOT declare a positive Energy production Bill, to help the farmers. AUTO Conglomerates will NOT accept info that Alt. Fuel WILL help the farmers and the country.

Seems that there is so much money to be made from Alt. fuels, the Govt. and BIG CORP's are trying to divvy up the pie, so they take ALL the profit, leaving the farmers broke, still. All the while stalling any help for those that need it.

Ethanol is a viable product in India. From what I gather, it is taken from the Farming Community and passed on to the BIG OIL CORP's to sell IN THEIR OWN STATIONS.

My point here is, is there anyone who does not comprehend that there is BIG money in Alt. fuels

farmerdoug · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2007, 12:08:24 pm »

'The big get bigger and everyelse gets??? the shaft'.

I think that states the problem, does it not?

Farmerdoug

saddletramp · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2007, 12:55:11 pm »

I agree with you guys all the way. What has happened to man kind? All buisness have to make a profit to stay in business. But what about the BIG ones who have to have gross and disgusting profits? It seems like all the money isnt enough, put it on the credit card so we can have your future money too. Corprate greed really cheeses me off. Maybe as the boomers retire a few things will change. The markets follow them and thier whims very closley, I know, Im one.

Corley5 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2007, 08:38:53 pm »

Most of the ethanol plants in this country WERE privately owned or were co-ops. I heard yesterday in a switchgrass session that 80% of ethanol plants are now corporate owned with a large percentage of that 80% being energy corporations. I'd say the cat is out of the bag. There's money to be made but the control is more important

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2007, 08:56:27 pm »

Guess my other point was, LOTS of folks don't think this is a viable option. Takes more to make less, yadda, yadda. Not energy efficient.

Folks seem to forget that Hitler nearly pulled aces outta his sleeve, and was about to turn the war in his favor, using Alcohol.

Corley5 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2007, 09:16:19 pm »

Biofuels are viable. Cellulosic ethanol is going to be big. It's just a matter of time. It's easier to extract ethanol from grains but cellulose has the potential for much higher yeilds without affecting our food supplies. Switchgrass prefers marginal soils. Small generating plants fired on a mix of biofuels and coal are also in the future and mixing bio matter with coal reduces emissions. One sticking point with me is that these companies are trying to hold down the prices they'll pay per ton to keep their profits up. They're talking up to 40 bucks a ton for switchgrass depending on the btu content. I getting 100 bucks for grass hay. A guy over towards Roger City has just bought a pellet mill for making fuel pellets from switchgrass and figures on needed around 8,000 acres to keep it supplied. I'm watching with interest

He's gonna have to come off the $40.00 though. Granted there are lower inputs for it than corn or other annuals but.....

farmerdoug · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2007, 09:47:51 pm »

You grow what makes you the most profit. Inputs maybe cheaper but profit per acre also comes into play too.

Farmerdoug

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2007, 10:40:00 pm »

Farmers are possibly the most independent people . It's time they started co-ops and pooled their resources. There is no reason fuels could not be produced and used locally. Set up your co-op so everyone gets a share OR buy the feedstock and make the fuel and SELL it back to the farmers and other locals. No need to ship all over the country. You still get feedstock for animals from the spent "cake" produced from crushing or fermenting

Nearly every part of the USA can produce from local feedstocks. Sugar Beets can produce a LOT of ethanol per acre. Sorghum or Milo can replace Corn. LOTS of "Seed" crops, Canola-Rape, Sunflower, Soy, for example.

One problem with Alcohol is rubber type "O" rings and such, that alcohol affects. Alcohol is DEATH in a diesel system.

A while back, there was a question on whether you could re-use corn for oil, alcohol and feed mix. I answered maybe. Now, I can answer definitely, only you get smaller amounts of each, using it to produce more product.

Just think how much grain is stored outside in good years, and goes bad from lack of processing

How many millions of acres are planted to wheat, alone

Plant oil crops.

Faron · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2007, 10:52:46 pm »

One problem with producing biomass products, switchgrass,etc, is you are removing about all the growing mass from the soil. Nothing is going back. The more marginal the soil, the bigger the problem. Probably require crop rotations and /or application of animal manure.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2007, 11:00:18 pm »

Yeah there's like a million acres of wheat planted up on the Peace and that's way up beyond the border.

In 1925 4,000,000 bushels of wheat were shipped from the Peace, that was on the Alberta side.

Gary_C · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:16:51 am »

I now have two ethanol plants nearby. The first one is about 20 miles northeast of me and the other is 20 miles due south. The one to the north, Al-Corn is a coop and was built and financed by local farmers who bought shares based on the bushels of corn they pledged to deliver every year. You can see their web site here: Al-Corn

The new one to the south is also a coop. I have purchased the distillers dried grains that is left after the ethanol is made ever since Al-Corn opened. It is a great protein source and feed for livestock plus it smells good enough to eat. Smells just like gram crackers. Also Al-Corn has some of the fattest sparrows I have ever seen.

Most all of the first ethanol plants were built and financed partly by farmers in coops. The primary reason they were started like that is because the economics of ethanol were iffy without government assistance in the form of tax breaks, I think on the road tax when it is used as fuel. These coop ethanol plants are still thriving and the stock prices with delivery quotas have become very valuable.

Now some of the larger players in the corn milling business like Archer Daniels Midland or ADM have been jumping on the bandwagon because of the sucesses of these coops. To the best of my knowledge none of these ethanol coops have been taken over nor bought out.

Ironically, the sucess of ethanol production from corn will also work against these plants without government support. Things were great when gas prices were high and corn prices were hovering around $2.00. Now with gasoline prices dropping and corn at $4.00 per bushel, the economics may become iffy again. That is why our government must stand behind ethanol as a first step in becoming self reliant again on energy consumption regardless of the economics right now. I have no doubt that ethanol will be made with other feedstocks like switchgrass or corn stalks in the future, but for right now corn is our best bet because it is here and now, not some future hope.

One of the problems we have in this country is people that do not really know the facts nor understand the problems this country faces. This past Tuesday I was sitting in a waiting room and overheard a conversation with a man and I believe his sister. They were probably in their 50's. It was already on the news about Pres. Bush's impending support for alternative fuels like ethanol. The man told his sister that it took more gasoline to make ethanol than was produced but those "lying, cheating farmers were going to keep pushing ethanol anyway and the government was going to keep giving them millions of dollars." Unfortunately many people do not understand that some things must be supported by the government because it is in our long term interests to do so.

Biodiesel is a similiar story. There are many biodiesel plants running and more being built. The economics are also some what iffy and will become more so as the price of the feedstocks, namely soyoil becomes more expensive as production increases. However, I can guarantee that farmers are going to use all the biodiesel they can regardless of the cost. All of my local fuel suppliers now have biodiesel available and I blend as much as 50 % in all my summer fuel tanks and would also use it in the winter just as soon as they solve the cold flow problems.

I do not ever plan to start producing biodiesel nor ethanol. I do not believe I could ever compete for price with those commercial operations. However I will buy and use all the alternative fuels that I can, regardless of the price. For me that is far better than sending my money to some one that hates me and wants to destroy this country.

Enough of the soapbox.

Bill · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:52:46 am »

Gary_C

Much of what you said I agree with. I'm not sure that in the long run we'd have to pay more for biofuels but I don't know so . . . .

For biodiesel there was a story a little while back about a scientist at MIT. ( background is simple - we exhale co2 which plants use and give off o2 ) So this guy runs the exhaust from the MIT powerstation through the aerator of a fish tank to grow algae. DanG if the algae doesn't love all the co2 and to put the icing on the cake the algae produces 100 times more biodiesel than soy for the resources used ( his numbers not mine ). He does his thing with his calculator and figures that if utilities in the US would do this for a year we'd have enough biodiesel to run all our ( the US of A's ) diesel equipment/trucks/etc for a year. So maybe either our electric bill could ( might ? ) come down or the utilities get into biodiesel - but not big oil !

So if the farmer's coops could keep ethanol, utilities get biodiesel just maybe the prices would give us a choice and put big oil in its place.

Anyway - just another $ 0.02

Gary_C · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2007, 03:13:30 am »

Bill

Yes, I am sure there are many ideas and processes that can be developed, EVENTIALLY. The problem is we need an awfully lot of alternatives NOW, TODAY or we will lose this battle.

The numbers are staggering. If I remember right, about 1 1/2 years ago I heard a comment by the Chairman of Exxon. They have ten per cent (10 %) of the gasoline market in the US (2005) and they sell one BILLION gallons of gasoline every three days.

Can you even imagine how many aquariums growing algae that would take to replace that ten percent of just the gasoline consumption?

If we are to accomplish these goals of reducing our dependence on imported oil, we need to stop squabling over who is going to profit from this and "JUST DO IT!"

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2007, 07:20:31 am »

I been following this stuff for about a year. Found some VERY interesting Chemists and Entrepreneurs that ARE doing it.

When this monement started to REALLY gain momentum, the price of Methanol went up OVER 100%. Methanol is used for transesterification, to remove Glycerol (soaps) from Veg Oil.

GUESS who controls Methanol production

BIG OIL. NOW, Big OIL has their foot in the door. Foreign OIL lets the output fluctuate and holds Alt Energy at bay.

I know that LOTS of BioDiesel is poorly made, and it clogs filters and ruins Injector Pumps. Problem is, too many BIG outfits grabbing what they can, NOW. The little guy is very diligent making fuel, and they have run over 100,000 miles on homebrew, with NO problems.

How does the truth get out to the masses

I think THIS is the big problem with Alt. Energy. Gary's mention of the guy bad mouthing the Farmers, is an excellent example.

There is also STRAIGHT Veg Oil, that needs only to be de-gummed and filtered very well, and used directly.

bugmeist · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2007, 10:58:45 am »

I just "found" this Alternative Methods section of the FF? I love it.

I have been interested in alternative energy for a while and actually lived off grid for the first 8 yrs in my present location ('74-'82). My ex brow beat me into hooking up to the grid but that is another story!

I just read about a Canadain company that will be marketing a "home" biodeisel plant capable of around 100 liters/wk. They are now in the process of getting CSA (Canadian Standards Asso.) approval. I must apologise for not being able to remember the name of the company and I recycled the newspaper the article was in. But 100 liters of homemade bio would sure power some farm equip, generators, etc and if one was a farmer and grew oil seed crops i guess you could be in a very self sufficient position.

Corley5 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 29, 2007, 07:44:10 pm »

Interesting little tidbit on where we may be going

"USDA Proposes $1.6 Billion Investment In Renewable Fuels
Agriculture Secretary Mike Johanns announced plans last week to propose $1.6 billion in new funding for renewable energy, with a focus on cellulosic energy research and production, as part of the Administration's 2007 farm bill proposals. This funding will support President Bush's goal of reducing gasoline usage by 20% in the next 10 years and will compliment an array of renewable energy-related efforts underway at the USDA.

In his State of the Union Address last week, President Bush announced his vision for the nation's energy independence, including $2 billion in cellulosic production loan guarantees. The President's proposals also include a new Alternative Fuels Standard, which contains a requirement for sources produced by American farmers and ranchers as well as an automatic "safety valve" to protect against unforeseen increases in the prices of alternative fuels or their feedstocks.

"It remains a priority across USDA to support the development of biofuels. We will continue to build on current programs and turn the corner on renewable energy," says Johanns. "With biofuels coming to the forefront, American agriculture faces the greatest opportunity of a generation to lead a future in which we get our energy by the bushel and not by the barrel."

For more information about renewable fuels and the President's mention of it in his State of the Union Address, visit the following Web links:
NCGA: www.ncga.com/news/notd/2007/january/012407.asp
RFA: www.ethanolrfa.org

Source: USDA"

Dana · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2007, 06:17:19 am »

Greg, I tried to view your second link and was blocked by a "you are not authorized to view this site" notice. Any idea what is going on?

Corley5 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2007, 09:20:07 pm »

Try it now

Dana · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2007, 06:48:21 am »

Link works now.

Quartlow · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2007, 09:49:57 am »

You know the minute the government gets in involved it gets screwed up

Quote

I know that LOTS of BioDiesel is poorly made, and it clogs filters and ruins Injector Pumps. Problem is, too many BIG outfits grabbing what they can, NOW. The little guy is very diligent making fuel, and they have run over 100,000 miles on homebrew, with NO problems

.

The wifes cousin has been making it for about 5 months now. He makes 10 gallon batches. We have had absolutely no problems with it. The 2940 JD gets run everyday feeding the cows, and his 93 Ford is running on it. We haven't changed a fuel filter yet.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #20 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:28:19 am »

YUP, good fuel works well. MOST of thescrapplethat plugs the filters, is from the DIESEL fuel days. Seems that some of THAT stuff had lots of *&$^$$% in it. Other times, ya just GOTTA get all the soap out before fueling up.

(I HATE Scrapple)

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #21 on:** February 01, 2007, 11:29:37 am »

cornmeal boiled in pork, allowed to set, then sliced and fried.

I don't blame you. Natives up here love that kind of stuff though. I'd die.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2007, 01:12:21 pm »

A feasibility study is being done for a possible ethanol plant in my area.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2007/02/12/nb-ethanol.html

The feasibility study is expected to be complete by June 2007.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #23 on:** February 16, 2007, 03:06:08 pm »

Here's a little tidbit of info I just found on a Forum.

" We collect between 20k-30k gallons of WVO from pizza hut(PH) and KFC every month. "

Some outfit in one county of Ca.

How many personal vehicles will this satisfy, per month

They are looking to sell for $1.00-$1.50 per gallon

Tom · « **Reply #24 on:** February 16, 2007, 03:43:33 pm »

20 to 30 thousand gallons a month? From two resturaunts?

I would have never thought that a KFC would use more that 20 gallons a day, and that because of multiple friers, not because they wore it out.

Holy Smokes! That's a lot of Olives.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #25 on:** February 16, 2007, 04:17:00 pm »

I would think that amount comes from a large area of many stores

Even so, just think how many gallons are available in a city like Jax.

How about in areas of high visibility off ramps on I-95 alone

Tom · « **Reply #26 on:** February 16, 2007, 04:22:36 pm »

I wonder if you need a Hazmat license to transport Olive Oil?

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #27 on:** February 16, 2007, 04:30:40 pm »

According to the Forum I frequent, it is getting more politically controlled every day. Hazmat is needed in some states right now, but, only for the volume. It's not readily flammable, but, imagine the slickness if spilled on the hwy.

Some areas now require people to have a license to pick up the used oil from Restaurants.

As the DOT thread points out, it's all about the money

Warren · « **Reply #28 on:** February 25, 2007, 05:29:05 pm »

A local rendering plant has been making their own bio diesel for the past several years. I believe they run their entire fleet of several dozen medium to heavy duty trucks exclusively on their own bio diesel. The business originally started picking up dead farm animals after WWII. Has grown to include all of the meat and animal by products from processing plants in several states. They also collect all of the waste cooking oil and fats from businesses and restaurants in the same area.

The only problem I am aware of is that you do not want to be down wind of their facility....

Warren

Ron Scott · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2007, 07:42:40 pm »

Scientists: Biofuels Process Promises to Meet US Transportation Needs

Purdue University chemical engineers have proposed a new "environmentally friendly" process for producing liquid fuels from biomass. The new approach modifies conventional methods for producing liquid fuels from biomass by adding hydrogen from a carbon-free energy source, such as solar or nuclear power, during gasification.

For more information, visit the Purdue University website.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #30 on:** March 27, 2007, 11:20:44 am »

Forestry Prof Says Corn Ethanol Plan Is Barking Up the Wrong Tree

Vincent L. Chiang a professor of forestry and codirector of the Forest Biotechnology Group at North Carolina State University said that, although corn has gotten the biggest buzz in ethanol discussions, there is simply just not enough of it. To remedy the situation, Chiang wants to make a new breed of tree that grows faster to produce more fuel. And he appears to be doing it—the trees in his greenhouse have grown more than 4 feet in four months.

For more information, visit the North Carolina news outlet WRAL.com.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #31 on:** March 27, 2007, 03:48:34 pm »

There continues to be some buzz about hybrid poplars as a source for cellulosic ethanol.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #32 on:** March 27, 2007, 06:31:43 pm »

Back in the 80's, there was some fast growing trees that were supposed to be cutable for faarwood in 3-4 years, then, they would sucker and be cutable in another 3 years. Thinking it was Ash or sumpin

Mighta been Poplar

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #33 on:** March 27, 2007, 07:57:39 pm »

I think the buzz around hybrid poplars is more localized and in close proximity to a university with public funds to throw at them. I don't think ash would fit the bill. Although, height growth would be almost neck and neck with native poplars, growth in girth would be much slower by 1/3 to 1/2 less at the same age. A few years ago, oh about the 60's up until the 90's or so the federal government was experimenting with larch species, in particular European and Japanese, but they did have a number of tamarack (eastern larch) in several provinence tests through the Maritimes. Even know of one local lumber company planting some on some sites. On some sites you can get some really nice looking larch, trouble is there was never a strong market for the stuff and it usually only got cut because it was in the road to other wood and in clearcuts. Practically have to give it away at times. Yet there were some people looking for larch tamarack for sewers and ground works. They never offered much for price. Quite a bit over the years was used to line potato sheds to keep the spuds off the cold cement in winter and to allow air flow in the bin piles. In recent years the larch sawfly has been having a great time chewing up the stuff. It's dying here every year and a lot of sites it was left behind on are just 'skeletons', and it will stand for decades.

OneWithWood · « **Reply #34 on:** March 28, 2007, 01:09:25 pm »

Harold, would you be referring to the old 'energy acres' program? The tree used in that program was the black locust. I did not have the land for it then. Wish I had.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #35 on:** March 28, 2007, 04:55:01 pm »

No, this was something some University or sumpin had developed. It was definitely a Hybrid, either Ash or maybe Poplar. Can't remember much, anymore.

It's getting really bad to try to recall stuff

submarinesailor · « **Reply #36 on:** March 28, 2007, 06:10:16 pm »

EDH,

The wife told me the other day that I need to have my brain recalled. Does that count?

Bruce

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #37 on:** March 28, 2007, 06:55:06 pm »

Sounds like yer on yer way to the rest home, just like me

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #38 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:02:16 pm »

On another matter, seems that this ULSD is REALLY screwing up Diesel Injector pumps. There is VERY little additives in some of it, that helps lubricate the pumps. It is causing waayyy premature wear on pump parts, soooo, There have been several studies conducted, and it seems that Vegoil, either straight poured into the tank with ULSD, OR, a 5% Biodiesel fuel added to the tank, provides more than adequate lubing for the pumps.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #39 on:** April 26, 2007, 06:24:08 pm »

Need some input from the Metrically smart bunch.

Talked to a Restaurant today about their used fryer oil. He said someone is presently picking it up. I had Reina question him about the weekly change of oil vol.ume. He said they use 150 Kilos per week. The guy PAYS them 90 colonnes per kilo.

Can someone deduce that down to APPROX. how many Litres in one Kilo

, OR approx. gallons per Kilo or Kilos per Gallon

I'm guessing Palm, Soy or Canola Oil. ??

Bioman · « **Reply #40 on:** April 26, 2007, 07:49:06 pm »

If I did it right....

Veg oil is 8 lbs/gal (virgin weight)
1 lb = .454 kg
1 kg = 2.21 lbs
1 gal = 3.785 l
1 l = .264 gal

1 gallon of veg oil = 3.64 kg/gallon (mass)
1 gallon of veg oil = 3.785 liters (volume)

150 kg = 331 lbs = 41.4 gallons = 157 liters

http://www.healthyweightforum.org/eng/converter.asp for an easy converter....

ohsoloco · « **Reply #41 on:** April 26, 2007, 07:50:56 pm »

I only use my skid loader around the mill, so it doesn't get used all that much. Because of that I don't bother with off-road diesel...I only have to get a 5 gal. can every few weeks, or sometimes over a month, so I just get the stuff from the highway pumps.

Harold, are you saying it would be a good idea to pour, say, a bottle of canola oil or other veggie oil in the tank when I fill 'er up

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #42 on:** April 26, 2007, 08:11:22 pm »

Thanks Bioman

Loco, NO. In colder weather, Veg oil will gel. In warmer weather, a CUP of Canola in 5 gallons would be too much. It doesn't take much. Mix a ¼ cup with some diesel and pour THAT into your diesel CAN, to make the 5 gallons.

You really should have hot fuel so the Veg oil stays thin. BIODiesel is a different animal. You drop out the soap and glycerol, take out the water, and THEN you can blend a LOT of it with Diesel.

ohsoloco · « **Reply #43 on:** April 26, 2007, 09:58:45 pm »

Good thing I didn't raid the pantry then, Harold

Maybe I need to get in touch with a friend of mine I don't see too much anymore. She was telling me one time that her dad makes and sells biodiesel.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #44 on:** April 26, 2007, 10:18:05 pm »

I'm tryin to get something going down here. It never hurts to ask

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #45 on:** April 27, 2007, 03:41:58 am »

Did the guy mean kilograms or kilolitres? Sometimes volume is measures in hectalitres to.

kilolitre is 1000 litres and hectalitres is 100 litres.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #46 on:** April 27, 2007, 08:03:09 am »

I'm guessing these are about 4-5 gallon sized containers (Cubees)

You can carry them to your pickup.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #47 on:** April 27, 2007, 03:14:37 pm »

Probably 20 litre buckets. They probably would be using UK/Imperial gallons for conversion as well, which is 4.54 litres/Imperial Gallon, almost a full litre more than a US gallon.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #48 on:** May 09, 2007, 02:13:35 pm »

Somebody is thinking.

Fuel

OneWithWood · « **Reply #49 on:** May 09, 2007, 03:38:55 pm »

Give the folks at UDOT credit for trying to do the right thing. I hope they can pull it off without a bunch of bureacratic mish mash causing the program to operate in the red. I like the idea of doing something other than growing and mowing grass in the medians and right of ways.
I do wonder if animal/vehicle collisions will increase.

Tom · « **Reply #50 on:** May 09, 2007, 04:24:18 pm »

When I was growing up and saw my first divided highway, me and other kids around would talk about the corn crop that could be grown in the miles and miles of median strip. Then the turnpike was built and then US-1 made bigger and then I-95 and the thought never left my mind. It didn't leave other people's minds either because I still have the conversation with folks, all of us thinking we invented it. Just think of the Acres available in the median from Jacksonville to Miami. That's one long corn row.

Yep, animals would surely find automobiles threatening, and it may lead to an era of poachers. But, if done legally, think of the institutions that could be fed fresh venison, coon and rabbit.

I imagine that the speed limits on the super highways would have to be dropped considerably, maybe even lower than people would be willing to drive.

Perhaps farmers could lease miles of interstate and fence it with 12' fence to help control the movement of wildlife. That could help keep the Government out of the farming industry. It would be like taking trees from the National Forests. I wonder how long it would be before some group found fault with the idea and started having sit-ins in the cornfields, or beet fields, or potato fields, or wheat or whatever else it was found that might grow there.

Luckyfarmer · « **Reply #51 on:** May 09, 2007, 05:10:19 pm »

Quartlow

I also have been useing it in all my tractors during the summer..no problems

I know of three ethanol plants close to me, all farmer owned(this I know)..I love the by products, I feed lots pf it

Furby · « **Reply #52 on:** May 09, 2007, 08:51:11 pm »

For those of you that don't know, farmers have been havesting hay from the medians for years in the plains states.
This isn't that much different, just that the UDOT are the ones doing it for their own use.

Luckyfarmer · « **Reply #53 on:** May 13, 2008, 05:11:44 pm »

ethanol does not raise the price of food, only yellow corn goes into ethanol, white corn is for food..it does make it hard on livestock feeders but we buy the ddgs from them..I am a cattle feeder and its a wonderful feed..the high cost of food is caused by big oil..4.00 diesel makes freight higher. it takes over a thousand dollars to fill a big truck, which is passed on.

Furby · « **Reply #54 on:** May 13, 2008, 07:28:27 pm »

Quote from: Luckyfarmer on May 13, 2008, 05:11:44 pm

it takes over a thousand dollars to fill a big truck,

Not yet it don't, but it won't be long. $:-\$

DouginUtah · « **Reply #55 on:** May 13, 2008, 08:16:07 pm »

Quote from: Luckyfarmer on May 13, 2008, 05:11:44 pm

ethanol does not raise the price of food, only yellow corn goes into ethanol, white corn is for food

Hello...

Does the Farm Bill prevent a farmer from planting "ethanol corn" instead of "food corn"?

It seems to me that a lot of farmers may be planting "ethanol corn" instead of "food corn".

Also, can't a farmer plant corn instead of wheat? It seems to me that wheat is in short supply causing food inflation since the wheat acreage is being planted in corn.

"The USDA's economists said Friday they expect U.S. farmers to produce 12.1 billion bushels of corn, down 7.3% from the record 13.1 billion bushels they harvested in 2007. At the same time, the U.S. ethanol industry is projected to use a record four billion bushels of corn, or one-third of the total harvest . . ."

Yes, transportation costs are partly responsible for food inflation, but the major factor is the increased commodity prices, due to increased demand.

Don_Papenburg · « **Reply #56 on:** May 14, 2008, 12:43:10 am »

Do the math Bu. of corn 56# box of corn flakes 14 oz. Maybe 3/4 of that would be corn. So 10.5 oz of corn . 56#=896oz. 896Divided by 10.5=85.3 boxes of cornflakes $3.75 -:- 56=0.06 ,0.06x10.5=$0.63 That is up from $2.50 bu last year.$2.50-:-56=$0.04 x10.5= $0.42 ber box What a deal !!!!!!!!!!!!! Corn prices have not kept up with inflation byany means corn should be selling for $8.to $10 a bu. to be close to the inflation rate. Were did the price jump for corn flakes come from? Fuel would be my guess or was it greed on the grociers part?

OneWithWood · « **Reply #57 on:** May 14, 2008, 01:31:37 pm »

An interesting read:

Ethanol – Beyond the Hype and Hysteria
By Andy Miller, Indiana Agriculture Director
Pick up any publication today and you will see alarming claims about corn-ethanol driving the world into famine. Two years ago, the same publications were heralding ethanol as the savior of America’s energy crisis. The truth is somewhere in between, and it is time for a calm, rational analysis of ethanol’s contributions and limitations.
The best way to begin a rational discussion is to address some of the biggest myths about ethanol.
Myth #1 -- Ethanol is a perfect fuel and is the “silver bullet” the U.S. needs.
•   Ethanol is one part of our overall energy strategy to reduce dependence on foreign oil. Ethanol is on track to displace approximately 10 percent of U.S. fuel usage. That’s a big deal. At current crude prices, that means more than $35 billion staying in the United States instead of going to OPEC.
•   But, there is no “silver bullet” for our nation’s energy crisis. Ethanol does have some real issues, like transportation of the finished product and the impact on other corn-based industries. But the biggest challenge is addressing these issues with innovative ideas. Too many in the industry want to rationalize the issues away, looking instead through rose-colored glasses.
Myth #2 – Ethanol is driving a world famine and record food prices.
•   Ethanol is not driving a world famine. The world supply of corn is still greater than demand. That means we aren’t running out of corn. In fact, the United States ended the last crop year with almost 9 percent reserve in corn, which is only slightly lower than average. The corn-consuming industry had become accustomed to much higher reserves of 15-20 percent, which drove corn prices below production costs and the accusation that the U.S. was “flooding” the world market with cheap grain.
•   Undoubtedly, ethanol has contributed to tightened corn supplies and higher corn prices. But increases in corn price are only partly explained by ethanol and only account for a small increase in retail food prices. An objective analysis determined that ethanol merely contributed to a 0.25 percent increase in U.S. food prices. The bigger culprits in higher food and corn prices are increased demand for food from growing countries like China, the impact of higher fuel prices on food transportation and a weakened dollar.
Myth #3 –Ethanol is destroying the rainforest.
•   A group of university researchers have concluded that as the world needs more corn, it can only produce it by using more land, and that land will come only by tearing down the rain forest. This argument fails to recognize the impact of innovation on farming. For example, in the 1930s the United States had more land in corn production than today, but now we produce 6 times more corn on about 10 percent less land. Use of improved fertilizers and other genetic innovations has driven this change and will continue to do so. We don’t need hundreds or millions more acres of land to produce more corn. If anything, the current market pressure is accelerating the rate of innovation with some predicting a doubling of corn yields in the next 10 years.
Myth #4 – Ethanol is guzzling water.
•   It takes 3 gallons of water to produce a gallon of ethanol. It takes 66 gallons of water to refine one gallon of oil. Therefore, to produce a gallon of gas requires 22 times the amount of water that is needed to produce a gallon of ethanol.
•   A university researcher is now trying to make the argument that it actually takes 1,700 gallons of water to make a gallon of ethanol. However, he arrives at that number by allocating for point source water, or rainfall. His number incorporates the amount of rain that falls on a field of corn. Regardless of how the field is used, the rain will still fall. Through technology and innovation more than 95 percent of all corn is grown with no water other than rainfall.
Corn-ethanol is making a meaningful contribution to our country’s efforts to reduce dependence on foreign oil; without it our imports of refined gasoline would more than double. Ethanol is not without issues, including the assumption it’s a “silver bullet.” And ethanol’s success has driven cynics and naysayers to surface. But the most important thing for Hoosiers to remember is this. Corn-ethanol, as with all alternative energy, has been a major contributor to new economic vitality bringing more than $2 billion in new investment, hundreds of new jobs and millions in new farm income. Through innovation we can reduce our dependence on foreign oil and see continued economic growth from agriculture – and that is a fact.
Andy Miller is Indiana’s first Agriculture Director. He was raised on a hog and crop farm in Northeastern Indiana, graduated from Purdue University with a degree in agricultural economics and worked in the food industry before accepting a role in public service.

Luckyfarmer · « **Reply #58 on:** May 14, 2008, 03:28:57 pm »

Thank you one with wood, you have done your homework , so many people don't understand. the oil cos just spent 5 million on bad mouthing us..they can out spend us but the truth will come out soon, I'm told by fall

Don_Papenburg · « **Reply #59 on:** May 14, 2008, 09:30:15 pm »

Big oil never includes the militay cost into there product cost annalisis

Bill · « **Reply #60 on:** May 17, 2008, 12:32:20 am »

I sure would like to see a bigger surge in biofuel ( esp biodiesel ) production by the little guy. Maybe even be so lucky as to have govt stimulate more production by increasing tax credits to the little guy ( like a percentage ) to farmers' coop's, groups of private people ( neighbors for example ) , even utilities and such with the credit getting smaller the more you make - so that it drops to 0.00% for big oil ( who have plenty of profits and don't need any more concessions or monopoly power over energy ) . I believe they have a vested interest in keeping prices high - so giving them competition and * us * more choices makes sense to me. Probably wouldn't take much to convince people to produce their own iffen oil/gas hits $5 gallon - possible with China and India claiming all the fuel they can get for their own growth ? And the more the coop's make the better - for them and for the US of A to reduce dependence on foreign ( and big ) oil.

The deal with utilities is the story from a year or so back about the MIT professor that used co2 from exhaust to grow 100 times the amount of biodiesel from algae in ponds than if he'd used soy for the oil.

Just another $0.02

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #61 on:** May 17, 2008, 07:42:02 am »

Quote

The deal with utilities is the story from a year or so back about the MIT professor that used co2 from exhaust to grow 100 times the amount of biodiesel from algae in ponds than if he'd used soy for the oil.

Bill, got a link to this story

Paul_H · « **Reply #62 on:** May 17, 2008, 11:13:11 am »

I found a reference,

Quote

Fast forward to 2006, and newspapers across the country picked up the story that Isaac Berzin, of MIT, is using algae to quickly recycle carbon in carbon dioxide rich exhaust stacks from power plants (3). What a brilliant, brilliant idea! Why didn’t I think of that? By doing this, he is able to double up on the benefits. First, the carbon dioxide gets converted back into plant material instead of going directly into the atmosphere. This would be a way of sequestering the carbon, provided the algae was properly disposed of. The story reports:

Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40 percent less CO2 (a larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86 percent less nitrous oxide.

Here is the link to the page,it was an interesting read.

link

A couple of articles on Isaac Berzin

MIT

Boston.com

What scares me a little about algae is that scientists funded by big business will keep tweaking things til they have a super strain.
Could a super algae find it's way into streams,lakes and other sources of drinking water?
Would it matter?

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #63 on:** June 03, 2008, 05:15:53 pm »

News.

link]http://www.nextenergynews.com/news08/next-energy-news6.3.08a.html]link

OneWithWood · « **Reply #64 on:** June 04, 2008, 10:44:50 am »

Thanks, Harold.

It was only a matter of time until someone with deep pockets figured out there is serious money to be made making bio diesel from waste products and inedible feedstocks.

All we need now is to be able to import the small diesel engines used throughout Europe.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #65 on:** August 04, 2008, 09:16:58 am »

This guy lives in Virginia. Shows how LOCALIZED Biofuels CAN make a BIG difference.

Quote

I hope this year to make 75% of the fuel we use on our own farm. It could be more if the beans do well. If I had to guess I would say we use 10,000 gallons on our farm and another 6000 gallons doing custom corn chopping.

He bought a press mill and converts the raw oil into Bio Diesel, using Methanol and Lye. Recovers nearly all the Methanol, and re uses it, just topping off with fresh, as needed.

Just have to WANT TO, is all.

StorminN · « **Reply #66 on:** August 04, 2008, 06:54:26 pm »

Harold, is there a new link?

-Norm.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #67 on:** August 04, 2008, 07:27:02 pm »

I got this from the BioDiesel.infopop forum. Read the "Growing Oilseed thread. This guy has just gotten into this production last fall.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #68 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:56:07 am »

I see the price of corn has been dropping. According to the farm report today corn has fallen 1/3 of it's value since spring. The USDA has predicted 155 bushels per acre on yield, giving the second highest harvest ever. Did anyone think that a surplus would not drive price down? Works the same way with potatoes.

Gary_C · « **Reply #69 on:** August 13, 2008, 01:11:37 pm »

SD, I take it you believe everything the government puts out. Most farmers are quite cynical about the accuracy as they believe the USDA sometimes uses these reports to set policy. They will regularly "find and then lose crops" just to suit their policy objectives.

Just to show how little most people, even news people understand farming, the local TV station had a feature on the news the other night and the reporter said "there is good news for the farmers because the USDA has raised their estimate for the corn crop this year." I guess she thought the corn that farmers harvest comes from the government estimates.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #70 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:03:45 pm »

Sadly though Gary, I bet the price is 'adjusted' by those estimates until the actual harvest. I guess that's the point more than anything. If the USDA works similar to our agriculture department they sample farm fields and most of the sampling is done by the farmers. And much is not without bias. There isn't enough bodies to physically get a large enough sample by department employees. I would think the policy for the year would be already worked out, but maybe that's too logical. Scratch that thought, it is too logical.

Most budgets I'm used to are worked out in the spring legislature, but your right about policy. I've seen how it works with silviculture, the actual numbers are ignored, department heads are ignored, government needs to divert funds to/from someplace else. No open discussion with anyone except politicians with the least knowledge of anyone involved on the ground.

I heard one kid say their potato yield was 400 barrels per acre on some of their fields. There isn't a farm field on the continent with that kind of potential without some very big expense going into controlling every aspect of the growth of the crop, in other words pretty much a greenhouse. I laughed in his face.

Gary_C · « **Reply #71 on:** August 13, 2008, 03:50:01 pm »

If you think you have figured out the corn market or any other commodity market, consider these events.

This latest USDA report where they raised the estimates of this years corn crop by significant amounts were considered very bearish and the markets opened down about 8 cents lower that day but finished the day up about 18 cents. Now today the corn markets are up the limit of 30 cents and from my recollection has moved up over 50 cents per bushel since that bearish report. Reasons given for this up move is heavy buying by some feeding interests which triggered some funds to start buying again along with attention turning to fears of an early frost as the crop is at least two weeks behind normal.

So what are those crop estimates worth? It does not get any better after the crop is in the bin. Then the reports regularly find or lose inventory.

And the market analysists always have a reason why the market did the opposite of how it should have reacted.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #72 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:02:01 pm »

Figure it out? Well, you know what investing is about, you can't base everything on a couple days trading. By Friday, it could hit the floor.

I wouldn't worry about the frost though, our summer now goes through the end of October it seems. Some are still cutting corn in November and often feeding the ducks all winter with spoiled corn.

. Anyway, we'll do what we can to bring up the rear.

Norm · « **Reply #73 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:04:27 pm »

I figured they were looking anywhere but Iowa for the rosy forecast Gary. Most places here still have around 10-20% field losses tied to the flooding. Those areas are not going to recover and start growing crops no matter how much we wish they will.

I fully agree that the USDA uses these reports to set policy. We always kid that in all the years we've been farming that we've yet to see a surveyor from their agency.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #74 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:09:22 pm »

We had them at the farm here regularly, and I know they are vigilant about it in Maine. We are talking potatoes here in this case. When we grew grain for cereal or flour, the buyers who were interested showed up. I know that isn't the same as a USDA agent, but at least they gather some real numbers to suit themselves and encourage the farmer if no one else.

Gary_C · « **Reply #75 on:** August 13, 2008, 04:53:09 pm »

The other thing that makes this report unreliable in these years is much of the numbers comes from the acres planted as reported by farmers when they sign up. However this year, planted and harvested acres will be two different numbers and it's just a wild guess at this point what the difference will be.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #76 on:** August 13, 2008, 05:30:21 pm »

Now, if we could just control the weather eh?

StorminN · « **Reply #77 on:** August 15, 2008, 08:27:14 pm »

Biodiesel news from here in the Northwest:

Imperium loses biodiesel contract

-Norm.

robdunn · « **Reply #78 on:** August 31, 2008, 06:27:44 pm »

how about inmates on treadmills to produce energy?
same problem with just about all energy innovations; you can't produce more energy than the energy used to produce it. If you could it would be like perpetual motion.
IDEA:
Recapture the water that goes through (example) hoover dam, and use it over and over and over again further down stream. as it exits the turbines, it can enter another turbine and etc, etc.

Radar67 · « **Reply #79 on:** August 31, 2008, 09:18:26 pm »

Put the inmates on bikes with the rear wheels belted to 12 volt car alternators. They can peddle in the day to produce the stored battery power to run their lights at night. If they have enough peddlers, they can supply the local area.

robdunn · « **Reply #80 on:** September 01, 2008, 06:20:29 pm »

kind of what I was thinking, but the energy intake would exceed the output.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #81 on:** September 01, 2008, 10:13:20 pm »

What's the energy input for them to lift weights and play basketball

What energy output does that create

NADA

POW's worked, building bridges, roads, and other projects, done on rations of rice, not steak, potatoes, and such

News:

Author Topic: Biofuel (Read 6372 times)