Any more off-gridders here?

[beav]

Nine years ago I moved into my new house. I never hooked up to PSNH (our local power co.) so I never had to cut the cord.
At the time everyone thought I was crazy. Maybe I was, but the paradigm seems to be shifting. I have not regretted my decision yet.
I have solar electric,hot water,passive heat. Winter wood heat, dhw. A collection of back-up generators.
All the lumber to build the house came from the lot. The claps came from large pine bartered from off-site. All wood mizered.
New Hampshire is kinda north, but these systems work fine,within my expectations.
I will REALLY try to get pix here, if any interest.
Any one else living like this?

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Youster did, back in the 80's. Had telephone service. Everything else was self made. Wood furnace and hot water, Wind Generator, self made, back up generator for battery banks charging. Water from Spring.

[Radar67]

I am working toward it. I just got my first solar panel. I plan to hook it up to my shed/cabin to keep my tractor battery fresh and keep another battery charged for lights. I plan to use as much alternative energy as possible when I start my house in the next year or so. This panel will help me cut my teeth. Beav, I would be very interested in seeing pictures of your setup and hearing about everything you used.

Stew

[OneWithWood]

Pics and descriptions of the things you have done would be most welcome 

[Mooseherder]

Would love to live completely off grid. We kinda do that a couple times a year at camp except for the occasional generator start-up when you absolutely have to have it.
Pics, Pics and more Pics Please

[stumpy]

We have a cabin in Northern Wisconsin that is Literaly Off-grid(2 miles away from power line)
Five yrs ago we installed a bank of 8 batteries(24 volts) that feed an inverter/charger. It provides lighting as well as powering the well pump. We can run other items but we try to conserve battery power.  Up till recently, we would spend a few days up there then run a generator for 4 or 5 hours to charge up.  3 months ago, we installed two 135 watt solar panels on an adjustable rack.  We have not run the generator since.  It is a great feeling to get power from the sun and not hear the generator.

[Mr Mom]

     Not to change the subject but how do you know how much watts you need to run a whole house??
     I would liketo get off grid.





     Thanks Alot Mr Mom

[Fla._Deadheader]

 There is lots of information on some Alt. Energy sites, that list wattages of appliances and such.

  If you avoid Regular A/C and Electric How Water, the average home uses around 4KW or 4000 watts per hour, AVERAGE.

  Starting appliances uses 3 times the amount for start up.

  Do some Googling for energy usage charts of appliances. Should find some info pretty easy.

[Radar67]

Check out www.backwoodssolar.com They have a good article for beginners with a good link to appliance wattage usage.

Stew

[Bill]

Pic's would be great as would any links to sites that gave you helpful info.

Thanks !  ( and congrats for being off-grid )

[farmerdoug]

My problem with solar is the payback.  I see solar cells are down to 4.50/watt.  That is $4500/kilowatt.  At ten cents a kilowatthour the payback is over 12 years out.  If it gets down to a dollar / watt I think it would be great.

 What is the expected life of a bank of solar cells?

Farmerdoug

[Lance in Ontario]

Has anyone used a water  as a source? I have a good flowing river about 500feet from where I would like to build a dry kiln. So I was looking if it could power a dh kiln. Will this require to much power from a water generator?

[DanG]

Welcome aboard Lance.

Check out the thread, "Anyone experiment with alternative energy?" on this board.  On the first page, Toxedo_2000 talks about some hydro generators he built, complete with pics.  He doesn't post much, but still looks in here from time to time.  Send him a message and you might be able to drag him back into the fray.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Water has been used for centuries. Problem with a river is getting enough flow, without getting debris and flooding. Usually go uphill toward a source and run a pipe away from the source, so heavy rain won't trash the set-up. Water can be regulated, so, an AC Alternator can be used directly to run a house.

  Used to have lots of info. Must be lots of info on the 'Net.

[beav]

Go to www.homepower.com. download primers for solar-electric,hydro,wind power, and download a free issue. very good info.

   Mr Mom- I run my house on 600 watts of pv panels. I require backup generation during the low sun months with cloudy stretches. Some people need systems of 4k or greater.(4000 watts) It all depends on your level of reliance. For example, I got my drivers license in '71. My first car was a Simca 1200. The price of gas went through the roof and I felt pretty good getting 40-50 mpg. since then every every tool,appliance,whatever I get must consume the least power and perform the task adequately.The house has cfl lighting, propane fridge, front loading washer,etc. I do look for deals on pv panels and occasionally add one. The mongrel appearance of my array bears this out

  farmerdoug- the pv(photovoltaic) or electric solar panels are warranted for 25 years. In real life they last much longer.

  Lance-  Not knowing the size or flow or head of your stream it is hard to say. An excellent place to find out is www.otherpower.com. mebbe .net.?

  DanG-  That is a great thread on a great project. Micro-hydro is the most reliable form of generation. I have a small brook next to my house I will install a sm system on. Its an intermittent stream, but a small bit of power during the monsoons we seem to be getting lately will go a long way.

  FlDh- You da man. Methinks a man with your experience in alt.e may know enough to cut through the excess externalities to the quick and just morph into a solar panel.Hey wait, whatcha doin in CR?! Any more room down there?

   Got the woodstove stoked and hope to get pix goin soon

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Youster sell and install Wind and Solar chargers. Did some hot water and built wood furnaces. Back then, power was reasonable and gasoline was .75/gal. When it hit $1.00 or more, folks went screaming for cheaper power. Govt. issued Investment Tax Credits for Alt. Energy. Nixon or Ford removed them    Back then, you could claim a 40% tax credit, over 5 years. Folks just groused that "IT costs too much". 

  Sold BIG batteries,  Phone Co. type, Forklift type were REAL popular. Had a deal for used-good cells.

  Made my own 4K Wind generator and put it on a 100' tower.  Got tired of all the complaining and nobody buying, so, moved to Fl. and did self employment for 20 years.

  Now, I'm getting into Bio fuel down here. Soon as I get time. 

[Greg Cook]

Beav, we're off grid and less than 300 feet from the lines.  It isn't a decision to save money, as you don't, but if we can make it, then other feel they can too.  I can't save the world, just help my little place here.
We drained savings to buy a 35 acre overgrown farm with no house on it. We moved a camper in here, developed a small spring into a usable water system, with a solar panel running a Flow-Lite DC pump.  Recently completed a small (380 sq/ft) strawbale house till we build the "real " house.  We have compact flourescent lamps plugged into a small inverter in the barn, near the batteries. Honda generator for back-up, or when the girls want to use hair implements or the microwave in the camper.  Have a small woodstove in the straw house, it's doin' its job OK. No landline phones, just cellulars, so dial-up internet was out. Since I had grown fond of the high-speed variety anyway, we use the WildBlue sattelite internet. It doesn't use much power, so it's good for the inverter, and the laptops use less than desktops. Speed is as good as we used to have with cable-modem.  When the house is built, a proper solar set-up has been designed, and we'll use the generator a lot less.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Way to go, Greg.

  Amazing thing is, once off grid for a few months, you really don't miss it, even the wimmenses. 

[dewwood]

DH are you not missing being off grid or the wimmenses?

[Fla._Deadheader]

  OK, ya got me. I was hurrien and didn't add the "don't either", at the end.

[Tim L]

I live in Boscawen NH not far from you. I'm on the grid, but I remember Simca they sold them in Manchester didn't they ? My Grandmother's significant other had a Simca we called Cindy when we were kids.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 I stuck a link to a guy in NY State that's off grid. Check it out on the Battery ?  post

[Greg Cook]

Thanks Harold.  You're right, the girls have become accustomed to it, and now the wife wouldn't go back to grid power if it was free!  We recently made a Sunday drive to a small town near Oak Ridge, Tennessee (think A-Bomb) where the TVA (power supplier for most of TN, parts of GA, AL, MS, VA, and KY) has installed 18 HUGE wind turbines on abandoned coal mining land. 280 foot towers, and rotors with 135 foot diameter, turning slow but imagine the torque! Just a mild "whoosh" as the blades came by.  We stumbled across this place from the backside of the hills where they're located.  We were driving along, looking at the scenery, rounded a curve and this GIANT propeller blade swung up into view, then back out of sight behind the hill.  We got curious real quick, and found them.  Awesome power, and we saw no dead birds littering the ground around the towers. To hear the PETA types (or any windmill detractors) these things are "birdie-vegomatics". I figure the stuff coming from the stacks of a coal-burning plant can't be good for birds, either, so it's a wash.
As far as the turbines destroying the view, I think they look a lot nicer than strip-mined hill they were placed on.   

[beav]

  TimL- You're right. I lived near Manchester then ,and Bonneville sold them.They were french,1200cc's,front wheel drive transverse engine. A progenitor to the VW rabbit. That thing went everywhere.It met its demise on Rye beach one Feb when I found out that when you park on the beach and let the waves wash under the front wheels they get undermined. I never realized the tide came in so fast. I was at UNH at that time.No mo' car

[beav]

 Greg, Good on you. It is true,as FDH says, once you make the step, it doesn't take long to not miss the grid.And yes,those windmills look a lot better than the strip mines the replace. And the hole in the strip mine is getting no larger on your account.Now everyone else......

[Tim L]

Glad to see you moved to a better area. I admire you for living off the grid .Did the Simca ever make it to the China Dragon ?

[fuzzybear]

   I've been off the grid for over 17yrs. I run 12 150w pannels, 2 600w wind generators, 1 paddle wheel generator, and 1 diesel generator.
   My total cost to run the house shop and green houses in the summer is $0.00.  In the winter it goes up to around $5.00 a week.
   Just for kicks I inquired how much it would cost to have a line run the 5 miles up to our island. There would be no poles it would run down the center of the river, price tag of $85,000.  NOOOOO
   We finaly have cell service up here and I can get a signal here on the island so I may look into that. We still use the radio phone if we have to. But a cell might be nice, especialy with the twins comming.
   We feel the same way as most people who live off grid, we would never go back even if it was free.

[LT40HDD51]

We recently bought about 40 acres and are planning on building a house this summer or fall. It's about 600-700' from a power line to where I want to build, through the woods, so either poles or buried cable aint gonna be cheap .

I've been looking into battery/inverter/solar/generator systems on the internet pretty heavy the last while and have figgered a couple things out:

1. Outback inverters make a really nice looking inverter, up to 3500 watts. Sez the military uses em on the hummers in Iraq. Seems to me to be top of the line. You can stack 2 of them and get 7000 watts of 220v  .

2. You can get a 6500 watt generator, with a 13 hp diesel, elec start, enclosed cabinet... landed here for about $2500 Can. Do an eBay search for "diesel generator" and find "EmergencyPower 6500 Watt Silent Diesel Generator". I looked into the company a bit and they seem to be very legit, much better than a lot of the generator salesmen on eBay  . And they have a warehouse in Toronto (good for us canucks, no duty and stuff  ).

What I'd like to know is, what about batteries? I know I need either a 24v or 48v bank, depending on the inverter. I have done a bit of research, and think I want a good lead-acid battery bank. Good longevity from what I've read (I don't mind doing maintenance). Do any of you know much in this area? Ideas on manufacturers?

Please note I have no ties with any of those companies. This is all for my own personal use 

...1 paddle wheel generator...

Thats really interesting  . I was scheming about building a small paddlewheel mounted between two small pontoons, to tie in a stream and power a hunting camp. Is yours something like that? I would love to see some pics... 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Hey Jeff. What's the cost to advertize here as an Alt. Energy Consultant

  " 51", Right now, I'm up to my ears in jobs.
 
  I will try to look at the Genset tonight, IF I'm not whacked out from handling 20' 2 X 8's all day   BY HAND. 

  Not familiar at all with that Inverter. We sold Heart brand. This was in the late 70's-early 80's. They were the best back then, and are used in Marine Applications today.

  Look aroung for Forklift Batteries. They are individual 2V cells, wired together. They are "Milk Jug" material construction, and you will probably need to construct boxes to hold the cells. They are high amperage, butm I can not remember how high. They ARE a true deep cycle battery. Only thing I would consider. See if you can find the source and probably buy them used.

  Might be a couple days before I get back to you. I'm trying to help another member, also.

[Minnesota_boy]

If you plan on going with the off grid for personal reasons, good on you.  If you're planning on it for economic reasons, check into it real close, especially the ongoing costs associated.

My father spent much of his life off grid, because there was no grid to be on, but when it became available, he hooked up and never looked back.  It's nice to have the welder available at a flip of a switch for as long as you need to weld.  It's nice to have plenty of light power when friends drop by and you stay up late into the night talking.  The Mrs. might like a hair dryer at the same time the clothes dryer is shaking the wrinkles out of her good clothes.  Taking a long shower puts quite a strain on the water pump as does washing clothes and dishes.  Think long and hard before you put your money down.

[LT40HDD51]

Another thing is that I know a guy who lives off-grid but uses almost all generator power. He designed and built the controls himself necessary to fire up the gen. when something calls for power and shut down afterwards. In other words, the gen is on standby all the time, waiting for a demand. When you turn on the oven, the gen. comes on. I'm thinking about doing the same thing, but with a battery bank and inverter setup to handle the smaller, everyday loads like a toaster, hairdryer, lights, etc. Also wood heat, and prob propane for the kitchen and dryer. I've seen some nice 24v submersible pumps on the net...

If you plan on going with the off grid for personal reasons, good on you. If you're planning on it for economic reasons, check into it real close...

It's a bit of both  . I'm thinking that the initial cost of putting a cable back there to tie into the grid might be better invested in my own system. I can build everything myself, or with the help of people I know (my buddy just happens to be an industrial electrician)  . Not to mention the ongoing power bills after hooking to the grid. I'm also looking into gov't tax incentives, etc. for wind and solar supplements...

Hey Swampdonkey, hows the power flowin in NB? Heard it was goin up... way up... Thats another concern of mine...

[beav]

  LT-40,700 feet from power is where I'm at.The cost of being hooked up to grid power was  a significant chunk,not the entire cost of my power system.The independence is priceless.
  FLA is right on about the batteries. Commercial forklift batteries are the holy grail of storage. But pricey . My batts have about had the meat after 10 years. I admit to murdering them through chronic undercharging during the winter months. I used Trojan T-105's. They are a golf cart battery. About the minimum quality to consider. It is a 6v deep cycle batt. My sys is 12v, I have 12 of them in series strings wired in parallel. Get better ones if you can. Surrett(Rolls), Trojan are a couple of brands that come to mind.
  The Outback components are well-rated. The only problem I have heard is that they have a problem synchronizing with some generators on the charger side.Be sure to try it before you buy it.
 I have two Prosine inverters,not for 220v(most inverters have the stacking feature),but for the redundancy.One inv. runs the water pump,toaster,microwave,coffee maker,etc. The other runs everything else. If one fails the other can be patched in easily. No downtime.I hate downtime.
  The Outback charge controller is a MPPT type charge controller, and will allow you to wire  a 48 v array and charge a 24v bank. I'm not sure about the outback,but I know that other brands of mppt(maximum power point tracking) controllers will put the above voltages into a 12v bank.
  Minnesota Boy- My welder is available at the flip of my generator switch.My kids stay up all night talking, the females all know hair dryers are bad for their hair, and the dryer is bad for their good clothes.They wont get up early enough to take long showers during school. During the summer we feel we all have to take long showers cuz otherwise the solar heated water goes to waste. My system is sized to run the water pump. Furthermore,my system has paid for itself in the last 9 or 10 yrs. You might have a case if you believe the price of electricity will not go up in the future.Furthermore,our coal-burning powerplant has made the local fish inedible,etc,etc.
  TimL, yes, I went by the China Dragon a thousand times.Never in it, though. We called it the Eurassis Dragon.That place burned down years ago.
  I apologize for not having posted pix yet.Here anyway. Quite a process.

[beav]

  LT-40,When I built this house I used a batt-inv-gen sys to cut down on run-time during construction.Later I just added pv panels.

[Greg Cook]

LT40, I've had good luck with Trojan batteries. They've been in business forever, and have a wide range of lead cells, a few of which are pretty much standard fare for most PV or wind set-ups. The forklift batteries that Harold mentioned are great, just hard to maneuver around when installing and replacing.
Best magazine on the subject is "homepower", and check out the website for "backwoods solar". Pretty informative, and the people are easy to work with as you're learning about your renewable energy system.

[LT40HDD51]

Thanks guys  . I've got a while yet before I'll build the system so I should have it well figgered by then  . That backwoods solar site is great, lots of good examples and information on all the gear you could need. Its nice to have prices on everything, too. Seems like most sites either just sell stuff or just have information .

I've already designed one (really) small solar system for the electric fencer for my girlfriend's horse. Just an old car battery connected to the fencer and a cheap canadian tire solar panel alligator-clipped to the works. Holds a steady 12.5 volts, works for me and cost about $40 for the panel (a buddy scored me a sweet 12v fencer from work fer free ). I've been thinking about getting one of those 12v led bulbs from eBay and wire it up in the barn, too. They draw practically nothing and would be nice if you wanted to check on the critters at night.

[dail_h]

   I'm headed off. Just got started,plan is.....................apply for and recieve ATF fuel distillers permit,begin producing alcohol for blending in my spark engines. Use the ethel to convert used fryer oil into biodiesel(wife is food service director for the local school system).Find and buy a slow speed diesel ,Lister type to run the house.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 If yer not gonna sell the alcohol, why do you need the ATF permit   I had one in Arkansas. Guy was surprised I applied for one. Just dump a gallon of Gasoline in the Alky tank, and ya got Denatured

[dail_h]

   wif out da permit,ya makin moonshine

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Drop a car battery in it, to speed it up  

  Let the Feds drink it 

[dail_h]

   I know how ta make it bofe ways,where ya kin drank it like iced tea,an where ya kan't drank it atall
   Just want to have all my paper work right to avoid having to 'splain stuff.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Dail
 Yer processor resemble this  

[dail_h]

   DH,
   I'm planning about a 150 gal pot in a waterbath cooker,one ,or maybe more thump kegs ,a 4 to 6 in. reflux colum. I have to be creative,and use whatever I can scrounge up. Already have several oil tanks of various sizes,acess to as many pallet totes as I want,and a bunch of black iron pipe.
   Oh yeah ,the picture looks an awful lot like an old friend from the past.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 That column is 8' tall and filled with glass marbles. It has a PVC water jacket around the outside.

[LT40HDD51]

I want to hear more about the paddlewheel generators. I have a small river running about 50' from where I want to build, harnessing constantly moving water sounds like a good idea...

I looked on the net a bit on the subject, and found a couple models available for towing behind a sailboat, or to be mounted underwater in a river. Basically just a propeller like off a boat, with a generator sealed in the hind end. I thought I could build one like the tow-behind model, for much less that $2000 us (conversion, duty tax, that burns  ). I'd love to see or hear more about homemade jobs people have done, and any ideas...

Just did a bunch more research, check this out: Darrius water wheel. Looks very interesting... maybe build one myself... 
(looking at the one called "Mark 2")

[dail_h]

   LT40DD51S,
   Boy I hope I got that right. Oh the post,I saw a thing on RFD Ithikkit was ,guy built a punp outta a combine cylinder and two pontoons ,and an old piston well pump.He put two doors on the front to increase the flow through it ,and tied it in the stream ,so it could rise and fall with the stream height.Should be fairly easy to do ,make the wheel bigger to make better use of the flow ,and make the platform wide and long enough to be stable.

[LT40HDD51]

The darrieus type can be used in fairly shallow water, as is my situation. That is why its used, it has a wide diameter but only needs maybe 3 feet of water to work properly. It only needs a couple feet/second of flow too. I think that a revolving drum may stir up more sediment, as well...

I know a guy who is into fiberglass and can build anything. Ive been thinking of getting him to build me the wings and Id build the rest.

Hey Swampdonkey, do you know anything on local regulations about putting something like that in a river? Id use veg. based grease, and put it on pontoons and tie it to the bank somehow so it wasnt permanent. Any ideas/concerns?

[fuzzybear]

sorry for the delay. With our twins only a few weeks away from being born it has been very hectic here. As for my paddle wheel right now it is out of the river for the winter and burried under 2' of snow. the river should be broke by mid May and I'll have it back in the river as soon as the ice flow stops.
   As for details... it is 8' wide with a diameter of 16'. This enables me to have 3 paddles in contact with the water at all times. (one entering the flow, one in the flow, and one exiting the flow.) this design works well in slower moving creeks and rivers and very well in fast moving water. It is built almost the same way as you build a fish wheel. (you can find lots of info on the web about them for designs) The Yukon river flows at about 15mph. with this speed and the reduction box I can run a diesel style gen set. The wheel produces around 48hp. I could get more if I used metal instead of wood for the wheel and used greaseable bearings instead of mylar sheeting between the beam and supports.
   I cant remember off the top of my head what I used for gearing ratios.  But when I get it back in the river I'll look again. I've changed it a couple of times over the years and forgot what I tried last. I'll also get pics up when we drop it back in.
   Mostly what I've learned is that it all depends on the water flow and the paddle size. The faster the flow the bigger the paddle and the more horsepower you get. 
   One of my neighbors down river said his new design should produce 200hp. If I can fanagle it out of him I'll post the particulars.  I suspect it is an aluminum design around 12'.
   One area you can look at for design ideas for the wheel itself is the old paddlewheeler ships. Same principle only it is on a larger scale than what you need. just scale it down in your designs.
   All I can tell you is just experiment as I did. You will find out what works and what doesn't. Just remember that in the spring run off the river moves faster than in the fall.
   If you have any specific questions just drop me a note and I'll try to get back to you as soon as I can.

[SwampDonkey]

LT40, I gotta search a bit on here because we have a lad up in the north woods of On-tare-I-O I believe that has a system set up worth consideration.

[LT40HDD51]

Right on, I appreciate it .

Did yer power go up recently?

[SwampDonkey]

I don't know where Jeff B buried the thread yet  , still searching. Been typing in every dang search word I can think of. It was that guy that flew up to his camp on the lake and had a stream powered generator he made.

My power bill is next to nothing each month, the highest being under $100 in mid winter. My phone bill costs more than electric, I'd rather be rid of the phone. Our rate doesn't go up usually until April, but I imagine it will.

[Paul_H]

SD,

Do you mean this member?



Toxedo

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, that's him. I guess he's in Northern Quebec it seems. 

Thanks Paul_H

[LT40HDD51]

Ok, here's my latest brainwave (I have a new one each day... )

Disc turbine

Looks really easy to build, tune and adjust...

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Might be OK for a lawn ornament. I wouldn't even TRY to make power with that.

  From experience, all that movement will wear parts out in no time at all.

[Furby]

Thought of this pic a while back and forgot to post it.
It was taken a several years ago in the North Cascades N.P.
It's in a little garden type area next to a big hydo/electric dam and the pipe comes from the impoundment.
It powers some lights along the walkways.
I don't have a pic of what's "under the hood", but based on what I remember from the display, it's just a little altenator or generator.

[Part_Timer]

If nothing else it looks way cool.

We have the same problem.  Where we bought the retirement property we have a quarter mile of power to run.  I doubt if that happens.  At the way copper is raising in price in another 10 years or so copper wire should be about $100 a foot.

[Karl_N.]

We're totally off the grid, we have both solar panels and a whisper 200 wind turbine that provides a good amount of energy every so often. We're on our third winter and I still feel as though I'm working the bugs out. We spend a lot on the propane generator in Nov. and Dec. and my wife really doesn't love the idea of only doing laundry when I say it's o.k.

One thing that we don't utilize very much is our outdoor boiler. The system my dad and I designed includes 2 zones of baseboard and 2 zones of radiant floor. In order to run the circulators for those zones the circ on the boiler runs and the circ. for the heat exchanger must be on as well. That's a lot, especially in the winter. I have never really used the radiant floor heat due to the fact that it takes so long for the slabs to warm up that I'm out of energy by the time they do. Recently I've seen circulators that run off of D.C.. I'm thinking I'll get two to put on my boiler and run directly to the radiant tubes. I'll have two separate panels for the circs. and just run it during the day so when the fires burn out, i'll still have some heat going in the house. How does this sound? Any one do anything like this before?

I also use the boiler to heat domestic water. I'm wondering if instead of having a fire in the boiler during the summer, how cool would it be to have a solar hot water set up and use the circs. already on the boiler to push water through that to heat up the storage I already have in the boiler?

[SwampDonkey]

I'm glad that you or anyone for that matter has considered alternatives. But, I'm beginning to wonder if your doing it for the savings down the road (because I know the savings are not immediate) or if you like to be innovative as much as you like to tinker with things. When I look at a lot of things out there and see the costs, I begin to wonder if the gadgetry that needs to be purchased is ever paid for before it's warn out and has to be replaced. For instance, a $45,000 windmill to generate 10 Kwatts or 300 Kwatt/mo., under optimum conditions, is never going to get back in the black. Here's some math.

Using my highest electrical consumption, which is in January of 650 kWatts @ 9.04 cents = $58.76, surcharge of $21, hot water heater $5.43 comes to $85.19

So, now I'm off grid and the power corporation is gonna buy my surplus, well there ain't none.

300 Kw @ 9.04 cents = $27.12

my consumption of 650 Kw = $58.76

net = $31.64 + $21 surcharge $5.43 heater = $58.07 bill

$45,000 / $27.12/mo = 1660 mo = 138 years. 

[Ianab]

SD

Just checking your maths here...

If the generater is rated at 10kw, then it could produce 10 kilowatt/hours...  per hour. Thats a potential of 7200 kw/h in a month. Of course it's not going to do that because the wind isn't allways blowing at full strenght, or at all sometime. So on a good site you might be 10% of the generators potential? Thats still 720 kw/h over a month. Now swap your water heating to solar / wood burner, cooking to bottled gas and you are now truley offgrid. No line charges at all.

Now you have spend your (say 50,000 because you got a solar water heater etc) , but you are saving the whole $85.19. OK it's now 50 years payback    Of course if it was going to cost $25,000 to get power connected to a remote site anyway, that changes things too.

But overall I think you need to find a windier site or a cheaper windmill 

Or go big, a $million windmill costs 20 times as much, but generates 100 times the power. Even selling the power wholesale it probably has a 10 year payback. Not great economics maybe, but sensible numbers to show the bean counters at least. This is the math the power companies will be using with the big wind farms.

Cheers

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Well thanks for clearing that up, because I was assuming 10 kw per day. I've not seen on the website being referenced on my windmill thread about the rate per day. I looked all over the dang place. I used that because it's the one used at the DNR office.

Another thing being omitted is the cost of maintenance.

[SwampDonkey]

If I was going to a remote site, I'd not even bother with power, other than a power saw and gas/oil for it. 

[Ianab]

I dont think they would want to put a kw/h per day thing in print because it's so site dependant. They can safetly say the generator can produce 10kw IF the wind is right, because thats easy to demonstrate ( on a really windy day). But that it will actually produce on average at a specific site may be 2-20% of that number.

Anyway I agree with your general reasoning, it's still too expensive to use to supplement mains power if you have it connected. If you are remote from mains power thats different, the windmill may be cheaper than getting power cables put in.

Also a smaller (cheaper) windmill may be practical to supplement other power sources in an offgrid situation. Mini-hydro, solar panels, wind turbine and a little backup generator incase you get an overcast, calm day during a drought  

Cheers

Ian

[LT40HDD51]

I've been thinking about a combination. A 24 volt bank of batteries sufficient to provide enough power to need charging maybe every other day, hooked to a diesel generator with automatic starting ability. Batteries hooked to an inverter, and add solar as I can afford. Maybe some kind of small water turbine in the river... Add this stuff as I can until the generator rarely needs to come on except to equalize the batteries once in a while.

Anyone have some kind of idea of how much battery capacity Im gonna need to only fire the genset once a day without discharging the batteries too far? I know its a hard thing to guess at, Im just looking for some kind of ballpark to figger if its feasible. Normal small house loads, few lights, computer and tv in the evening, wood heat, propane kitchen and hot water...

[Furby]

Went to the annual Home and Garden show this evening.
One booth had domestic solar hot water systems, 1k and 2.5k solar electric systems and a 3.7kw wind system.

The wind system had a show special price of $10,995 installed.
The hot water system show special was $5,795 installed.
The 1k solar show special was $10,495 installed and the 2.5k was $22,495 installed.
Being free from the grid........... priceless!

[Ianab]

LT

I think you are on the right track. I haven't got the actual figures, but you should be able to calculate the watts used by various appliance, multiply by how long they will be on each day and get a general idea who many kw/h you need per day, then size your battery bank accordingly. Flouro lights, LCD TV and laptop computer will be your friends here. Halve the power of your appliance and you halve the size of your inverter, battery bank and generators.

My ex BIL had a similar offgrid situation when he bought a 2nd block of land to run in conjunction with his dairy farm. He only needed power for a water pump and electric fence, but mains was going to cost $15,000. For $5,000 a local engineer hooked him up with a little diesel water pump that used a car type generator to charge a decent battery that would run the electric fence. So every couple of days he would call in, pour 1/2 a gallon of diesel in and start the pump. It would run for an hour or so, fill the gravity water tank on the hill and charge the fence battery. The $1 per day the diesel cost was less than the supply charge for mains power anway.

Cheers

Ian

[dail_h]

   LT,
   There's a device called a killawatt,that you can hook inline with appliances,ect,that will tell you how much electric that item has used during the time it was connected. Can't figure out how to post the link,just type killowatt in your search.

[LT40HDD51]

Ive seen them, and am very interested. Theyre pretty cheap, and you can get a model that reads 220v too. Gonna hafta get me one...

[Thomas-in-Kentucky]

Even though I'm not living in the house yet, I have been running our house site with solar electricity for 4 months now.  (Previously, I used a tractor PTO generator and then my bro-in-law's super quiet Honda genny.)  Before we move into the house, I plan to expand the system.  In the mean time, building the house with a subset of the system that will power the "lived-in house" seems like a great way to test things out.  Of course, right now all we run on a daily basis are power tools and lighting.  But, so far so good. 

Assuming a realistic interest rate for the money invested in an off-grid power station, it will pay off somewhere between 30 years and never.  But this also assumes that the price of electricity is not going to go up in the next 30 years (doubtful!).  In any case, I think a previous poster was right - it would be hard, in most situations, to justify the decision to produce one's own electricity based on purely economic factors.  But life isn't always about the "cheapest" solution.  For instance, most people would still hunt even if confronted with the economics that they pay more for camo, guns, shells, and deer tags than for the cost of meat in the supermarket.  And a lot of US households have at least two cars, when owning just one (or none for some city folks!) would make a lot more economic sense.  Making my own power gives me the same sense of independence that is hard to put a price on.  Kind of like buying and running a sawmill when it might have been cheaper to hire a commercial sawyer... oops did I say that.  Please don't tell my wife.

here are some pictures of my temporary off-grid setup...








-thomas

PS, am I the only one who gets annoyed with those unmetered outdoor/driveway night-lights the power company pushes on every one?  (they cost like $5/month on your electric bill).  They are the equivalent of street lights that you rent from the power company.  Every house in our county must have one of those mega-watt monsters that comes on and stays on all night.  Can't they at least put them on a motion sensor - how much money/energy would that save the USA ?!

[Radar67]

Thomas, tell us more about your distribution system, batteries and panels. ie Make, model, some technical info.

Stew

[beenthere]

Thomas, you are not the only one annoyed. Far too much electricity used up trying to light up the sky at night. At least put shades on them so they direct their light to the ground, and not horizontal to the neighbors.   

[Thomas-in-Kentucky]

Radar, I thought I'd leave out the technical stuff, but since you asked...

Solar Panels: Sharp, 208 watt each.  6 total on the roof for about 1250 watts.  30 more planned to go on the roof after we move in.  That will give us 7500 watts of solar power at high noon.  (in ky, we average 4 noon-sun-hours per day, so 7500 wattsx4 = 30Kwhr/day on average - or $3.00 worth of electricity per day at todays prices.  some days I'll get almost nothing and some days I'll get twice that)

Inverters: Outback brand, 3600 watt each.  They produce 120 v each and are wired in series to produce 7200 watts at 240 volts. (two 120 volt feeds to the breaker box.)  Eventually there will be 4 of these 3600 watt inverters in a series-parallel configuration, giving us 14400 watts.  Or, said differently, we'll have the ability to produce 60 amps at 240 volts. 

Chargers: Outback Max Power Point Trackers.  These little boxes take the power from the solar panels and put it into the batteries.  They "pick" the optimum voltage for the solar cells to operate.  They also let you use over 100 volts from the solar cells to charge 48 volts batteries.  They are neat.  I currently have 2 in the system (although I only need one).  Eventually there will be 3 MPPT chargers. 

Batteries: Rolls-Surrette, Lead Acid, 4 Volts each.  12 of them in series, so that makes 48 volts.  I think the 50% discharge rating is something like 25Kwhr.  In other words, they could power a 100 watt light bulb for 250 hours and still have half of their capacity remaining.  (the deeper you discharge a lead acid battery, the shorter its life, so discharge below 50% is to be avoided.)

Back-up Generator: yet to be determined.  pretty sure I'll need/want one, but haven't needed one in 4 months while working on the house, batteries haven't gone below 50% charge, and we've had some pretty cloudy stretches this winter.

All of the electronics were delivered "prewired/integrated" and mounted to a big black panel.  It was literally plug-and-play.  The big black panel has safety disconnects, generator transfer swithces, and DC breakers as well.

basically, from the Outback panel, I have three wires running to my regular 200Amp breaker box, just like you would have three wires running from a pole outside your house.  Except there is no pole!    And like I said, I can produce only 60 Amps continuous (per 120v leg), but rarely do expect to ever draw that much.  The most I could draw at high noon, without dipping into the batteries, would be about 30 amps (per 120v leg).  Might sound complicated because I'm not taking time to be clear.  What it boils down to is there will be enough to run adequate (240v 25amp) air conditioning and intermittent appliances on sunny days w/o draining the batteries, which was my goal.

I'm happy to answer any specific questions or share my limited experience with this system here on the forum.  So far the system works great.  I am really impressed with the level of engineering that has gone into the Outback components that make everything work.  I bought everything from a company on the internet called "Affordable Solar" and they have been great to deal with.

-Thomas

Beenthere - glad to see I'm not alone!  Yes - reflectors would be nice so my neighbor's lights don't shine in my bedroom window all night!  It's not so much a problem now, since we live "up a dark holler", but those "security" lights were the bane of my existence at our last house and will be at our new house.  Uggh.

[SwampDonkey]

Reminds me of something my uncle comments on often. It's about saving money, not necessarily a tight wad, but it seems quite common that when people come into a little bit of money they have to spend it. They couldn't just invest it and get some interest on it, and be happy with what they've got. Oh no. If they spend it on this or that, just think how much better it will be.

My question, for whom and in what way?  A lot of this stuff is expensive for a couple reasons, research being one and to discourage the average Joe from breaking away from the herd. That being said, I have nothing against going green, and maybe that's the biggest motivator. Maybe more so than independence.

[Thomas-in-Kentucky]

I'll concede that it's not cheap, but someone has to break from the herd as you say, and help get the market started.  If it cost half or one third as much as it currently does, then you would see a lot of new houses with solar panels.  If it cost 1/4th as much, power stations would almost be obsolete, but the grid could still serve a useful purpose as a means for trading energy.  That price drop seems feasible some time in the future.

One problem I have with the (mostly state level) gov't subsidies (incentives to customers) right now is that it is artificially increasing demand for solar, but the producers of these panels are savy enough to know that and are not ramping up production capacity in line with (artificial) demand.  Producers know the gov't could pull the rug out from under them like it did once before in the early 80's.  The result is that the price of solar panels went up 20% between the time I was considering them (2 yrs. ago) and the time I bought them.  There has to be a better way to get the ball rolling - gov't intervention is probably not the answer.  (worked against me - not for me - since KY does not subsidize solar.)

I like the green aspect of it, but that was not my primary motivation.   I might have invested the same money on a reliable home-scale wood-fired steam-engine power plant. (but none exists!)   If green is the primary motivation, then maybe one should have a grid-tied solar powered system and do away with the lead acid batteries.  They ad cost and are not as long lived as the solar cells.  The batteries let you cut-the-umbilical but have no net green effect as far as I can tell.  What the world really needs is a better battery.

[Paul_H]

A lot of this stuff is expensive for a couple reasons, research being one and to discourage the average Joe from breaking away from the herd. That being said, I have nothing against going green, and maybe that's the biggest motivator. Maybe more so than independence.

I've heard the "can buy it cheaper than you can make it" comments a lot over the years and it's been applied to home cooking and canning as well as vegetable gardening and fruit trees and any other "green" project a person may take on
But I often think on the fact that my Grandparents had no fridge or freezer,they butchered their own meat and shared it with neighbours who in turn passed fresh meat on to them when they butchered.The small town had several small local dairys and picking and canning fruit and berrys was essential.My Mum remembers a hole in the ground in the back yard that served as a cooler for milk and butter and ice was sawed at Alta lake and shipped 30 miles to town by rail.

And now,just 50 short years later most of my generation is dependant on fresh food shipped daily from around the world and electricity generated several hundred miles away keeps us warm,cooks our food and keeps it cold.We had a short (3 day) interuption in food tranport in the flood of 2003 which washed out rail and highway into our town.There was a run on the grocery store and some people were very worried and there was complaining that "somebody should do something"

Our society,of which I'm a part,reminds me of the lab Rats that push a lever and food drops down and pulls a lever and water flows but they don't care much how it gets there and wouldn't know what to do if the supply wasn't refilled.
I have around 25 fruit trees in my yard,Apples,Pears and Cherries but the Bears have been taking over because the mentality around here is the Bears were here first so we are in their territory.Well I don't know of any 45 year old Black Bears in the valley so I have seniority as far as I'm concerned.Why do I have to buy Apples from California when they grow just fine here?
The trees planted on my land were part of a local mans mission in the early 1950's to feed his family and the local Indian community.
Now it's looked on with contempt.

If initial cost has to be justified to take on a project then not much would get done in the way of innovation.The automobile was only a toy for the rich a hundred years ago and the naysayers were taunting automobile owners stuck in the mud or broken down on the road with "get a Horse"

Now a non car owner might be looked upon as an oddity and Horses are associated with the rich.

[SwampDonkey]

Yup, good post. I know a lot people gave up on canning here because they want $0.95 or more for the canning jar and $0.25 for the seal for 500 ml of beans. Same quantity $0.75 off the shelf. So people began to question what they were doing. Not that they didn't want to can. I pick berries also, a washtub full in the freezer (raspberries). Cost? $0 because they are in my yard. If I had to go pick blue berries, it would cost me $60 in fuel to get there, the same $60 would buy me all the blueberries I'd ever eat and more in a year. $10 a 5 lb carton here in season at the supermarket. I've tried growing blueberries and my ground won't support them. You won't even see them in the wild in this area, the ground is too rich, they like acid soils. Strawberries I can pick from the local grower or buy from his stand. I hate pulling weeds from strawberries. I have apples, but I only eat them in season as apple sauce. Onions sets costs $20/lb. $10 buys me enough onions for a year. Corn seed is $15/lb and $5 buys me all the corn I eat in season, not a big corn fan.

As far as costs and innovation that's a different ball of wax. Inventing solar cells and nuclear subs is different than canning beans like your grandmother did. Canning and preserving is a tried and true method. Granted some one had to figure it out initially, or starve to death trying. If I was the guy doing the inventing and marketing it, I'de have a different view point than the guy buying my invention for the novelty or trying to be self reliant. That's when a feller sits down and tries to rationalize what he's doing.

[Paul_H]

Was the nuclear submarine "invented" or developed? I would think that both the sub and the solar panels had humble beginnings as ideas in the minds of men that didn't keep tally of hours worked vs $$.

What I'm trying to say is tinkerers should be encouraged or left in peace.If all costs had to be justified,you might have to get rid of your antique computers.

[SwampDonkey]

I like tormenting tinkerers too death.    And collecting old junk like some others for near nothing. I also like to rationalize everything that involves opening my wallet.

[Paul_H]

I'll bet you pinch pennies so hard the Queen's nose bleeds eh?

[LT40HDD51]

Thanks Thomas, thats the closest Ive found yet to what I want to build  . Can you give me an idea of what that twin-inverter system and the battery bank cost? Those inverters are just what Ive been scheming about, and am wondering what the ballpark range is for a 48v battery bank like that.

You said you were unsure about the generators. There is a good looking generator, diesel, 6500 watts, 13hp, on eBay. Click here. Seems to be a nice unit from a legit manufacturer. Ive seen similar engines on small sawmills. Air cooled, burn hardly any fuel. This ones electric start with a remote. Anyone got any ideas about them or experience with them? You can get em without the steel enclosure too for a few hundred less...

[stonebroke]

I know it's not off the grid but does anyone have any experience with the large (2 to 3 mega watt) generators used in commercial wind farms?

Stonebroke

[Thomas-in-Kentucky]

LT40HDD51,

The inverters themselves are $1688 each.  But you would be
way ahead of the game to buy the whole power panel prewired
like I did.  Here is a link to a system very similar to what I bought.
http://www.affordable-solar.com/outback-vfx3648S-240v.htm
(if that link ever dies, just google "affordable solar . com" and
click on their "Outback Power Systems")  They will build any
system you want for not much more than the price of the
components.  I asked them to build one that I could expand to
4 inverters at a later date.

the prewired system is very easy to hook up.  the system above
does not include the batteries.  the options there are almost infinite. 
check their site for batteries too.  The ones I bought are pricey, but
have a 10 year warranty.  They are made in Canada, but they might
still be OK.    The second 5 years are pro-rated. 
Hopefully when these batteries die, there will be a better battery
technology on the market.

The only shortcoming of the off-grid outback inverters that I
have found (compared to Xantrex) is that the Outback inverters
do not sync with a generator.  When the generator kicks on, the
inverters opt out of the power production side of things, and just
become battery chargers.  So you do not get 10Kw from 5Kw of
inverters and 5Kw of generator.   With the exception of that one
shortcoming, I think these are the best inverters on the market.

if anyone ever wants a second opinion on a system they are
contemplating buying, I love giving opinions! 

-Thomas

btw, that is extremely cheap for a diesel generator - someone buy one of those and let me know what the gotcha is!

[SwampDonkey]

I love giving opinions! 

Me too. 

[dancan]

the price might look cheap but factor shipping,exchange,hst,duty (depends on country of origin) and who and where for service and parts .personally  i'd look closer to home unless you have a good pipeline from there to here.
a few spots in halifax sell off some rental units and i've also thought of a diesel welder (more bang for my $$ and it's built to run)
i have also seen a national chain recall some of their offshore built generators because of faulty wiring .
just my .85 cents

[LT40HDD51]

I noticed that the generator company has a warehouse in Toronto, maybe get one sent there to avoid duty etc.? Im gonna have to have one before too long...

[Raider Bill]

   LT,
   There's a device called a killawatt,that you can hook inline with appliances,ect,that will tell you how much electric that item has used during the time it was connected. Can't figure out how to post the link,just type killowatt in your search.

I just bought one at Harbor frieight, $19.95

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Just returned home, WITH my old books on Alt. Energy. One of them should have a chart with household KWH usage for lights and appliances from the 70's-early 80's.

   Lots of info on Methane Digesters and Solar Hot Water designs.

 Now, I know this is outdated, BUT, used as a worse case scenario, you could build in a hedge for saving energy. I have flyers from Solarex, the Solar Panel we used to sell. A source list for low voltage pumps and such, even submersibles. I have some Bergey Wind Gen pamphlets. Not sure about Inverters. They have come a long way since I was in the business.

  I would try to scan and supply info to those SERIOUSLY interested.

  ALSO, have an antique book about FUELS. Lists BTU and such for nearly anything that burns . 

  It's all buried in one of the 4-- 60# bags we dragged back, literally. Even had to drag them across a bridge that was being repaired. Only about a 12" walkway and a distance of about 600' to a waiting shuttle bus. Nearly missed it, because the bags were so heavy 

[Mr Mom]

     Has anyone thought of using steam or a boiler to run a generator??
     Thought about eather looking for one or building one.

     Thanks Alot Mr Mom

[farmerdoug]

MrMom,

Woodmizer is working on the bioburner to that end right now.  Steam is a dangerous creature to play with and requires constant attention.

Farmerdoug

[LT40HDD51]

Sawdust into electricity.... oooohhhh, I cant wait 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 If ya get caught selling steam-produced Elec. to the grid, you MIGHT be considered Commercial, and need a Boiler Whatchamacallit Operators License.

[Mr Mom]

     Good points.
     I was thinking on a little scale.


     Thanks Alot Mr Mom.

[LT40HDD51]

I dont want to sell it, I wanna make it and use it

[jpgreen]

Old thread here, but we've been off the grid since 99'.

-Mine-

1000 watt panel system, 4500 watt inverter, 12 trojen L16's wired in 24v. Perfect sized system for my wife and I, and my shop.

The weak link for us is backup generating power and the dependance on dino fuels.  I think our answer will be Wood Gasification...

[sawguy21]

There was some discussion of water powered generators. Here the gubmint utility, BC Hydro, owns the power generating rights to all flowing streams. If I want to build a water wheel powered generator I am required to pay 1/3 the going rate for the privilege of using THEIR river.   I also cannot divert any 'riparian management area', read fish bearing stream.
This came about with the Columbia River Treaty when the provincial government sold their souls to a power hungry U.S. in the 60's.
Needless to say, this method is not widespread.

[LT40HDD51]

Yeah Sawguy, that sucks. We have the Churchill dam over here pumping it out DanG near free for em too  . At least the Labradorians get it really cheap... But thats really something about them "owning" the rivers and streams...  . How do they know how much you are using from a water wheel? Meter? DanG gubmint...


jpgreen, thats an interesting read, thanks. One question, how do you get a chebby alternator to charge a 24v bank?

[jpgreen]

There is a small difference between the stock 12v and mine but it's slipped my mind this morning. I think all it is is no regulator. The way I understand it is basically it's generating DC amps direct to the battery bank and doesn't care how the batteries are configured.

One thing I've found is when using a direct DC charger you can run high drawing equipment without a drop in power whatsoever, but when running even large generators to the inverters charging system, there is an initial power surge.

Direct DC amps to the batteries is the way to go.