Hybrid Poplar for Short Rotation Timber

[dsk]

I've got 10 acres of pasture in West Virginia and I'm ready to evict the cows. In their place I want to plant trees, but wasn't sure about what kind.

Over the last few months I've done a lot of reading on the research done into various hybrid poplar clones (Oregon State and Washington State Universities have a wealth of this info). And while those clones were largely developed for the pulp industry, some growers (like Potlatch Corp) have begun thinning their stands and producing saw logs on a 10 to 15 year rotation.

I'm planning to plant 5 different clones, all with high growth rates, on those 10 acres of deep, well drained, loamy soil. I intend to try various spacings of 14, 12, and 10 feet to see what kind of annual growth I can get from each clone. And beginning in the third year of growth I'll start limbing them up to encourage clear wood growth.

After 10 to 12 years I hope to have a nice bunch of clear saw logs, or even peeler logs. My question is, will there be a market for this kind of wood when it's ready to harvest? Or will I be left with a manicured looking forest similar to the pic at this link:


Thanks,
DSK

[beenthere]

Welcome to the forum.
Interesting idea, raising the trees for a sawlog product. As to what the market will be for wood from these sawlogs, might be a big guess. What the wood properties might be from WV hybrid poplar, might also be a guess. Have you any clue from your research to what those properties might be via Potlatch?

Here is a MN article including Hybrid Poplar Trees for biomass, and planting on CRP acres.

Hybrid Poplar on CRP land

[Furby]

Well I belive there is some image manipulation in that pic.
If I'm right, then there aren't any really good sawlogs there.
Chip n saw maybe, but not what I would call a saw log.

How big are you expecting the logs to be in 12 years?

[Ianab]

Looking at the rest of the guys Flickr page I think the photo is legit. He has more info re the location of the grove and other pictures.

The pruning regime looks similar to how pine is managed in NZ, lift pruning the trees to produce more clearwood in the butt logs. I know the hybrid poplars grow fast, but there isn't any info on how old those trees are, just that there were planted / managed for veneer / furniture logs. I suspect they are a bit more than 12 years old, although maybe only 20?

As to how much they will be worth, what would a heap of 24" top quality poplar logs be worth to sell if you had them now? If there is not a ready market for them now, it's unlikely there will be in 20 years either. If you could sell them now for X dollars, then base your calculations on that, along with a crystal ball reading for inflation and log market swings.

People have experimented with the poplars here in NZ, but there is no market for the logs. 95% of the mills are geared for pine production and marketing, so the poplar logs went for pulp 

Cheers

Ian

[dsk]

Some great feedback gents, thanks. Let me try run down the list of comments...

Beenthere, I've found some research by the USDA into the structural lumber properties into a specific (but unremarkable) clone known as Wisconsin 5. End result was that, if kiln-dried, this particular clone would produce reasonably good dimensional lumber. See the report at:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fplrp573.pdf
There are some WV clones out there, but no recent work done in this state that's on par with what they're doing in other areas of the country. So after looking at additional research results, I've decided to plant the following 5 clones:
Clone 15-29
Clone 59-289
Clone 184-401
Clone 311-93
and the venerable Clone OP-367

One particular paper does a nice job of reporting survivability and growth of 31 clones in South Carolina. See:
http://entomology.wisc.edu/~dcoyle/pubs/Coyle_et_al_2006a_B&B.pdf

Ianab, you're correct, the guy's photos on Flickr are legit and unaltered. He used a high end digital camera with a very wide angle lens to capture those shots, that's why things look somewhat stretched to the left and right. But I've seen lots of photos of poplar plantations on Google, this one just happens to be the most manicured. Something important to note in that photo, the black poly pipe snaking past each of the trees. Irrigation is an important factor to pumping up the growth of these hybrids. They do well enough just on their own, but if irrigated they will double or triple their growth rate.
Here's an image of a 9 year old disk of HP:
http://www.forestnet.com/timberwest/archives/Sept_01/pics/0901%20ISSUE_25_0002.jpg

Regarding the age of many of these trees, most of the research I've found indicates 12 to 15 years is enough to achieve 14-16 inches dbh. But that almost certainly includes irrigation. I'll assume that I can achieve the low end and reach 14" dbh in 15 years.

DSK

[Furby]

That was my point. The wide angle lens gives a fish-eye effect and that causes forced perception, a trick as old as the hills. Stiching the pics together like that increases the effect.
How high up in the air do you think he was when the grove shots were taken?
"Penny" is much further back in that grove then you think by looking at the pic.
You can see the fish-eye effect if you look at the kite cam shot.

I don't see a lot of straight trunks in that grove and it's not from distortion.
If I was planting for short rotation saw logs like you talk about, I'd be thinking REAL hard about visiting some current stands that are the age you are talking about havesting.

[dsk]

Sound advice Furby, but I don't think there are many stands in the 10 to 12 year range within a reasonable distance from my location. Most of the stands I've seen are growing out in Oregon, Washington, or Minnesota. I did hear tell of a project nearby, in Virginia, where Virginia Power has begun growing Hybrid Poplar, but that's probably for pulp. Still, if I can track it down I plan to swing by for a look.

Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your perspective), there's just enough information out there on the subject to convince me that those kinds of growth rates are being achieved by some of the newer clones I noted above. And instead of letting my land sit fallow, or continue grazing it for $25/year/acre, I figure taking a chance on a low maintenance crop like HP trees with a potential sale at the 12 year point, is a much better use of the land.

If worse comes to worse, at the end I'll still have a nice stand of trees to do a little hunting under.

I've seen a couple of other posts on this forum where folks mention hundreds of acres of hybrid poplar planted, and nearly ready to cut. I wonder what their efforts are returning...

DSK

[Furby]

In my mind you are taking a risk reguardless of wether you talk about HP, oak, cherry, whatever.
That's the name of the game. Anything can happen.
If you can handle the cost and will be happy simply to have a forested area, I don't belive you will lose anything.
If you get a good crop of sawlogs....... consider it icing.
12 years really isn't all that long and you should have an idea after a handful of years how things are going.
Good luck and keep us posted!

[dsk]

That's the plan. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. So far I'm not looking at any serious outlays or new costs. I have the land, I have the planting stock (I'll take cuttings of the one year clones I already have growing), my tractor is bought and paid for so the mowing for weed suppression in the first few years is already part of the package.

I'll confess, that my background is in engineering, not timber. But I love growing trees and bringing that together with my thirst for knowledge is a big part of the appeal here. That's why I'm considering 5 clones, each planted in three different spacings. If some clones do better than others in those arrangements, in this area, and these soils, I have another 50 acres of river bottom that could start growing hybrid poplar, too.

And to be honest, my expectations for stumpage price are pretty modest. If I can get around $65/MBF as recently reported for "other hardwood" in the WV stumpage report:
http://www.wvforestry.com/TR-06-1stumpage2006.pdf

then I'll be satisfied...

DSK

[Ron Wenrich]

A number of years ago, a guy wanted me to plant hybrid poplar on a strip mine reclamation.  I asked him what he was going to do with the trees after they were grown.  Not a clue.

I'm not sure of the WV markets, but here in PA you would be hard pressed to sell any logs.  Hybrid poplar is aspen, not tulip poplar.  The markets here are for pulp and pallet.  Neither will bring much of a price.  Some markets won't even take it for pallets.

I believe Penn State looked into the hybrid poplar as a means of growing biomass for energy.  That has pretty much gone by the wayside.

Before I would invest time or money, I would be talking to guys in the area.  Go talk to a logger or a sawmiller whether they would have any interest in them. 

I think I'd go for the hybrid walnut before the hybrid poplar.

[SwampDonkey]

Read of horror stories with hybrid poplar in southern Ontario. They did grow fast, only until disease and insects got to them. Even wild aspen here is very susceptible to target and hypoxylin cankers, as well as false tinder conk. The wetter the site to greater the probability for disease. That's just one reason we do not thin aspen stands (pre-commercial). We will thin large tooth if on a dry hardwood site. Or if aspen is mixed with other species as long as the other species % is > 40 % of the stems. Large tooth grows 20-30% faster than trembling aspen on good sites. 8 inch dbh in 20 years for large tooth is the very best I've seen, but another 10 -15 years will make a tremendous difference. That's in our northern climate. Road side trees grow even faster, so walk into the stand a bit to get a good perspective.

[SwampDonkey]

Aspen veneer price is only slightly better than for pulp. Also, the market it far away for my instance.

[dsk]

Ron,

Hybrid Poplar is a favorite tool in phytoremediation situations, such as you see in reclaiming strip mines. They have a great propensity for uptake of heavy metals and other chemical impurities in contaminated soils. Here's a project in Maryland that tests HP trees for clean up of biosolids:
http://www.naturalresources.umd.edu/Pages/Clone_FS/Clone_FS.htm

Regarding what to do with them when they mature, cut 'em down and put them to use. The trees will re-sprout and grow from the stump. And the Hybrid Poplars apparently metabolize heavy metals and chemicals well enough that residual toxicity is not a problem. Even dropping them on the ground to rot would be fine it seems (but I'm not an authority on the subject, just drawing conclusions from what I've read).

Hybrid Poplar is the result of crossing members of the Populus family, most commonly Populus trichocarpa and Populus deltoides, or P. trichocarpa and P. nigra. P. trichocarpa is more commonly known as Black Cottonwood, P. deltoides is better known as Eastern Cottonwood and P. nigra is that nasty Lombardi Poplar.

A number of Universities and extension services have dabbled in Hybrid Poplar over the years, but across much of the east coast it seems interest has dropped off, including at Penn State. Remaining interest around here seems to focus on phytoremediation and riparian buffer creation (something else Hybrid Poplar is good for). Out west it's a whole different game though, seems to be a big economy and lots or research going into HP in Oregon, Washington, and the Canadian provinces, to name a few.

I will be talking to the loggers and sawmillers in the area. Fortunately there's no shortage of the former, and a fair number of the latter. My plan is to deliver some large, clear, butt logs (a log and a half, or 24 feet) at the end of this effort. At this early point in the game, it's hard not to be optimistic that I'll find SOMEONE who would be interested in the wood.

As for time and expense, I'm blessed in that this is something I can do in my spare time. HP trees are fairly low (but not no) maintenance. And expenses, if approached in the right manner, are really not much. All the cuttings I need to plant 10 acres are available to me, basically free. So it's just a matter of a few days of elbow grease (planting) and periodic mowing and pruning (will forgo the irrigation for now).

DSK

[SwampDonkey]

In my area, aspen is so abundant that we don't need to be growing it in plantations.  We don't have any of those poplar species growing naturally in the Maritimes. Some are planted as lawn trees, I have a lombardi that was planted 26 years ago. Without going out to measure it now, I'm pretty sure it's over 10 " at DBH. I'de much rather have 1000 acres of mature white spruce, or yellow birch, or white ash....I could go on.

[dsk]

I have to agree with you SwampDonkey. I'd much rather have a natural stand of oak, maple, cherry, etc. But after 100 years of grazing, my little piece of heaven only has cedar, black locust, and one big rock maple. The cedar is most prolific, and having never been cut it is quite large, often 16" dbh or better.

But everything else is pasture, growing 6 foot tall in hay and nettles if I don't get it grazed or mowed.

I have read about some of the canker and leaf rust issues that can affect some poplar clones. Resistance to those issues are among the traits that hybrid developers often select for. The clones I'm looking at score pretty well in those areas. But the poplar borer is a pest that probably doesn't care what cross it munches on. I don't know if its a real issue in my area, but I guess I'll be finding out. I'm holding out hope that since cottonwood isn't too common in this area then the bugs that eat it may not be either.

DSK

[WDH]

Your biggest problem may be marketing.  West Virginai produces some very high quality hardwood sawlogs.  Some of the very best cherry.  I suspect you might feel like a skunk at a High Society Dance Ball when you offer fast grown hybrid poplar for sale to that bunch of crusty old sawmillers that have been cutting the best for the longest.  Compared to what is harvested and sold in that area, your hybrid poplar will be the lowest quality/fastest grown wood in those parts, plus, it is on a very small acreage.  It is most likely that at the ages you reference in your post, you will be producing fast growing fiber for pulp or oriented strandboard.  However, there is nothing wrong with that if you are seeking income in the 12 to 15 year timeframe.  Just don't bet too much money on growing a sawlog that you can sell as a sawlog in that amount of time with that species in West VA.

[dsk]

WDH,

Thanks, you gave voice to the very thing I've been thinking. This area is renowned for quality hardwoods, and I see them in the forests every time I go out for a hike or a hunt. When I drive by the local mills, they have stacks of cherry, oak, walnut, and all manner of quality logs in their yards. The loggers in these hills are crusty and smart. I on the other hand know next to nothing about the trade.

A skunk at a high society shin-dig is an accurate way of capturing it. I think if I'm going to have any luck at all, it will be to position this timber for what it is. A clear, tough, light wood that works well for veneer, furniture, or dimensional lumber. A modest wood, for a modest price.

I really don't intend to compete with those high quality hardwoods, but if there's a market for a good "farm wood", then I may find a buyer. If not, I'll just keep it growing.

The more I look at this though, the more I find places that are doing the same thing. Not just out in the Pacific North West, but in New Zealand and Europe as well. I recently took a business trip to Denmark and was astounded at how much hybrid poplar they have growing for timber.

So while I'm not the first to engage in this type of tree farming, I could be one of the first in my local area. Guess I'll have to take my chances, and keep good records. Could be useful to others, later, who might have the same questions. At the very least I can file the occasional progress report here on Forestry Forum and post some photos of the trees' progress.

Thanks for all the great feedback.
DSK

[johnjbc]

I have 2 of the Penn State Popular growing in my yard. They are doing about 2” DBH a year. The wind broke the biggest one off at a canker about 20 ‘ up so it still has a pretty good saw log left.. I plan to saw it this summer and will let you know how it comes out.
I need to top the other one before it gets much higher for my house’s sake. Have some 12 gage slugs that should be used up away.
Here is a link with pictures of these trees
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=2806.0

[Furby]

I'm thinking that log may not be much good after all this time.
It probly had some rot in it before, and after standing there for a year and a half broke off, it may not have a lot of good wood in it.
Be sure to let us know how it mills up, but I would get to work on it as soon as you can.

[johnjbc]

You may be right about the log being bad but the re growth on top is over 20 ft.
I had planned to get it cut this year but with two knee surgeries and my youngest daughter and two grandsons moving home this year I didn’t geterdome . Also still working on the trees from 2000 x 50  power line and about ¼ mi. of access road we put in. plus all the wind through from 170 acres   
Planning to retire this spring. Then I should be able to get caught up on my sawing and about 50 other project that are in the works.
I will ask the wife to take a picture of the popular tomorrow and will let you know when I get it sawn

[Tillaway]

There is quite a bit around here but I am still have not heard of anyone doing well with it unless it was grown under contract.  The folks that planted it for pulp speculatively so far have been stuck with a product that cost more to harvest and haul to the mill than its worth, that is until the last few months.  The ones that were planning on selling at the seven year mark for pulp have started pruning hoping to find a veneer market later.  Pulp prices have rebounded enough now to make harvest marginally profitable.  The first push into HP was when local pulp prices were something like $90 a ton.  Pulp prices were at $26 for the past 10 years or more. Pulp prices have just rebounded to the high $30's low $40's.  I looked at getting a contract to grow HP many years back from Boise-Cascade at $75 a Cu unit.  They were contracting growers for a short time until the pulp / paper market slowed down.

The universities are always big cheer leaders for this kind of thing.  There is still no market for HP veneer or saw logs that I know of.  In fact the only veneer mills that would peel cotton wood have quit buying them.  I had some nice cotton wood logs on a sale last summer and the sale purchaser could not find a buyer. 

[dsk]

John,

When I first found this forum I searched for Hybrid Poplar and read your posts about that poplar behind your garage (or whatever that building is). While I'm not positive of what the Penn State program was growing, I thought the leaves in those photos looked a lot like the OP-367 clones I have growing. OP-367 was a clone created at Oxford Paper, back in 1923, or there abouts. It's a cross between Eastern Cottonwood (Populus deltoides) and Lombardy Poplar (Populus nigra).

Just going on what I'm reading about various Hybrid Poplar clones, it seems that every time Lombardy Poplar is entered into the mix, then the instance of cankers and leaf rust goes up. It could well be the case that the hybrids you have are a clone which includes P. nigra.

I did some looking into the Hybrid Poplar problems in southern Ontario, that SwampDonkey mentions above. And I found some things written about pulp plantations in the 1980s that met with bad results. They were using poplar crosses between P. Nigra and Populus Maximowiczii, often referred to as NM clones (NM-6 being one of the most common). It might just be coincidence, but there's that P. Nigra in the mix, again.

Since the 1980s a lot of new work has been done to select and cross clones for improved tolerance to canker and leaf rust. Some of the best results seem to result from crosses between Black Cottonwood and Eastern Cottonwood (P. Trichocarpa and P. Deltoides). I've chosen about 4 of those clones for my project, which have phenominal growth rates, and are reportedly very resistant to canker (and in varying degrees to rust).

On another post here in Forestry Forum, Ohsoloco mentioned that the Hybrid Poplar he millled "cut like butter". Let's hope you have a similar experience and I really look forward to hearing about your results next summer. If you want to kill that tree off and keep it from doing damage to that block wall, I've read that painting the stump with glysophate (Roundup) immediately after you cut it, will do the job.

And mentioning the 20 feet of new growth in the 18 months since that tree blew over, not surprising at all. Especially given the fact that a mature root system is pumping nutrients into that tree. Even newly planted cuttings have been known to grow 9 feet in their first year, as seen in this photo of cuttings grown in one gallon pots:
http://www.hybridpoplars.com/9ft.jpg

And if you're getting two inches of dbh growth per year, and this wood saws up into reasonably descent lumber, I don't know why any miller with a little patch of dirt wouldn't try planting a few of these things. Having a few extra board feet of timber to cut and use/sell for such little effort sounds like an easy decision to make.

Thanks
DSK

[Ron Wenrich]

Have you ever thought about paulownia?  Fast growing and a better market for the lumber/veneer than hybrid poplar.  I think you should be within the range, unless you're too high in elevation.

[Furby]

And if you're getting two inches of dbh growth per year, and this wood saws up into reasonably descent lumber, I don't know why any miller with a little patch of dirt wouldn't try planting a few of these things. Having a few extra board feet of timber to cut and use/sell for such little effort sounds like an easy decision to make.

Just to comment on this, fast grown trees may not produce very good or welcomed lumber.
Many, many years ago the lumber cut was very dense and growth rings very tight. Some very good lumber was produced and used for things we wouldn't think of using high quaility lumber for now days. As time has gone on, the lumber that is produced each year has dropped a little in quaility for one reason or another compared to what was cut 50, 100 or more years ago.
I look at all the post where folks talk about the poor quaility construction lumber at the box stores and such and a lot of times that lumber is from fast grown trees.
There is nothing wrong with trying to make things easier, faster, better.
Just because we can grow trees as fast as we can, doesn't mean that we should. At least not for lumber.
There is a pretty big difference between sawlogs and pulp logs.

[dsk]

Ron, yes, I did look at Pawlonia when I was researching fast growing trees. I'm in growing region 5b, or 6a at best, and about 2500 feet above sea level. I'm also in a rain shadow of the Alleghany front (crest of the Appalachian Mountain Range) and this region only gets about 25 inches of precip each year. The norm in the surrounding area is about 45 inches, and on the west side of the Alleghanies its as high as 55 inches (big timber grows over there).

I started growing some Pawlonia in pots this year from seed I ordered. I also started spotting them out in the wild after recognizing their purple flowers that bloom in the spring a couple weeks before their foliage begins to grow. All in all, while there does seem to be a market for the wood, from an aesthetic perspective, they're pretty unappealing. Aesthetics do play a part in this project, because if I can't find a market for the trees, then that's all I've got to fall back on... a good looking stand of trees that appeals to the eye, at least.

DSK

[dsk]

Tillaway, That's probably the closest thing to the horse's mouth I've heard. I looked at pulp, since that's what most Hybrid Poplar is grown for. But the concept didn't really appeal to me because the pulp plantations I've seen are pretty unappealing.

This whole effort really began out of my interest to increase the tree coverage on 10 acres of my property, reclaiming it from pasture. I was interested in getting some tall trees quickly, not so much in a marketable product. The Hybrid Poplars certainly establish a tall stand quickly, but then I started finding some instances of people growing them for saw logs. Not the reason I was initially interested, but now that I know it's a possibility, it certainly seems worth a little investigation.

That was the whole purpose for coming here to Forestry Forum and asking the question. I've gotten some great feedback. And what I'm taking away is that, as long as I don't put a lot of money into this, or expect a payoff, then I can grow some tall trees, and if I find a market for them it will be icing on the cake. That's good enough for me.

DSK

[JimMartin9999]

 I live in Germany, across the road from a 30-40 year old poplar plantation.  The Germans seem to be able to use any wood fiber produced.  However, the farmer who owns the plantation told he couldn´t sell the wood, , about 22 DBH.

[SwampDonkey]

10 years can make a major difference between the diameter of poplar trees.

Take a 30 year old poplar, it's probably close to 12 inches and add 1" to 1-1/2" per year for 10 years for well managed and spaced stems.

[Max sawdust]

DSK,
Here is my two cents.  First off you do not have that big of acreage to create a market that does not exist.  Market creation is a big deal takes many people with the same goal to create one.

As far as hybrid poplar, I think the people trying to sell you expensive seedlings have done a good job creating a market .  I can not believe you would get decent saw logs in the time frame you are talking about.

Pulp maybe, but look at the prices on the pulp market.  Sounds like an awfully lot of work for pulp.   Even at that is their a market for Aspen pulp in your area?

If it were me I would look at other products for the 10-15 year time frame.  Xmass trees?  Nursery stock?  or something else not related to trees.
Or I would plant in native hardwoods and let the next generation reap the benefit of the effort.
Max