Market Slowdown

[farmerdoug]

FD,

Are you talking about the biodiesel forum run by Shaun of the BioBeetle fame?

If so what is your handle there?  I peruse that site all of the time.  I am really thinking on getting into biodiesel too.

Farmerdoug

[PineNut]

Cedarman, I see what you are saying abut taxes on fuel. We could stand an increase tax on petroleum fuels but only if it were to be used to help the US to become energy independent. But there are two major problems with this.

1.  How to keep the politicians out of it.
2.  How to keep the greedy hands from putting it in their own pockets.

If these two problems could be solved, I could go for it but I see no way it could be done.  So lets not tax it any more.

[OneWithWood]

FD and FD,
I also peruse that forum quite a bit.  My handle there is bdubet.  You may also find me on the dieselstop where I use OWW.  I am actively making bio diesel from waste donut oil.  I will be posting some pics of my setup in the alternative fuel thread whenever I remember to take the camera out to the workshop with me.  I am brewing fuel to use in my equipment during the warmer months and as supplement heat for the greenhouses during winter.
One nice thing about methanol, it is not consumed in the process and by building a separate still much of it is recoverable.  If you use potassium hydroxide as the catalyst the product left over after recovering the methanol is a potassium fertilizer.

[Fla._Deadheader]

    I saw yer handle on there. Didn't put it to a face, though. 

[farmerdoug]

My handle is ---
drumroll---

farmerdoug

I wonder who else from here cruises the site also.  Maybe Quartlow as I know he is into biodiesel also.

Farmerdoug

[Ron Wenrich]

Government cannot manipulate the economics, other than helping businesses (simpler rules and encouragement) build and grow that will hire more people that will buy more goods and services to get, and maintain, a strong economy.

Since when doesn't government manipulate economics?  They're called subsidies and they tip the balance of making one commodity more favorable in the marketplace over another.  Subsidies comes in several different forms.  Tax breaks, contracts, exclusions, limited tort are just a few that come to mind. 

I remember talking to my congressman back during the OPEC problems in the '70s.  We had a farmer that was producing ethanol for less than 50¢ a gallon and had a high quality hog feed as a side product.  The government shut down his illegal still.  What was government pushing?  Coal to diesel - even way back then.

I asked the congressman about why they didn't recognize ethanol as a good alternative to petroleum products.  He said the technology was unproven.  What it boils down to is that the government cannot control thousands of small producers.  They can control several large producers.  The government cannot function without tax money, and alternative energy, especially solar and wind, do not generate tax money or taxes can be easily avoided as in biodiesel and ethanol. 

So, the government gives big companies an economic edge and that controls the marketplace.

[SwampDonkey]

We have a Milk Marketing Board. It's good and bad. It reduced the number of dairy farmers that were not profitable, mostly hobbyists (you can not make a living off the cream and milk of 8 cows). It also discouraged the hobbyist as he had to invest a lot of money to get into serious farming. I don't think that part is right at all, it discourages new entrants into farming. At the beginning the Board gave you the quota at no cost. You had to stay within the quota or be fined. Some small operators sold their quota a few years into it and made more on the quota than the cows were worth.    But, too many participants drives the price down and kills our fragile maritime market. We used to have a small dairy truck come from the coop to pick up the farmer's cream in cans, miss that part. They used to make butter right here locally in Florenceville COOP. But, to tell the truth things are a lot more sanitary now. They test that milk after each load and if your lot contaminated that load, you get a bill for the load. Before, 'ole Bessy's tale could have swished around in the milk pale a few times.  And you always wonder how clean the guys pales or separator was. I know some that were not too clean. Maine milk is subsidized and the surplus is bought by the government. That is why it is half the price of ours. It's no cheaper to produce milk there, than it is here.

[Cedarman]

Ron you are right, very right in by book.
Letting economics sort this out might be fine, but  one reason to use renewable fuels is to lower the amount of greenhouse gases from fossil fuels.

The government supervises patents which by law prevent you from making a cheap product.  Take roundup ready soybeans, farmers can't use there own crop for seed without forking over big bucks. Yet they  the south American farmers get by without paying the fee.  Government controls us from birth to grave. We just think we are free.

[TexasTimbers]

Beenthere,
Governments are at the top of the food chain. I could stop there but but a little more elaboration would say that in our Republic our founders had the novel idea that through a never-before attempted, delicate tapestry of checks and balances "the people" would have the final word, but that also the central government would be very limited. It's main purpose was to protect our shipping lanes and from invasion and the like.
I do agree however, that in our complicated world, it must extend to certain other limited areas and that role has been redefined constantly since our inception.
I could pointlessly go on and on but my point is that to think that government do not control economics, even in our "free economy" society is not seeing the forest for the trees. It is IMPOSSIBLE to conduct business legally in this American system of "free enterpirse" without paying a plethora of taxes some 3, 4, 5 times on the same equipment and tools and inventory etc.
The government is THE ultimate controller of big, small, and medium sized business ventures in this country. They do it through taxation and regulation. They use the several states as collection agencies and they do it directly.
I'm suprised you didn't know this.

[Ed_K]

 The gov and eco's are working overtime for big business interest's, they've got the health departments believing wood smoke is bad. Their starting to curb or out right ban outdoor furnaces,next it will be indoor stoves and furnaces.There is some bad in smoke but I've been under the impression that smoke was mostly carbon which tree need to grow. Thus we're right back to oil. Thoughts? Am I wrong?

[SwampDonkey]

Well as far as I'm concerned, if I can't use wood, then come try and stop me and try and take out my wood furnace. 

[Cedarman]

The nice thing about the sawdust stove WM is testing is that there is no smoke, even with green sawdust except for a few seconds when it first kicks on.  There are ways to burn wood on a small scale that does not emit smoke.

Also you have to make $3.28 at your job to clear $2.30 to buy a gallon of gas after taxes are taken from your check.

In this country you can not...
buy what you want  No sunday sales of beer in In.
do any number of things without a license  ie  electrician, plumber, doctor, teacher
build what you want where you want because of zoning
print money
driving is a priviledge, not a right.  priviledge conferred by the state
take a signal beamed to your house and do anything you want with it without pay for the priviledge
if in business, you must tell the government what you make and how much of it. I have to by law tell how many feet of softwood I saw each year and how much I have on hand on Dec 31.
they want livestock owners to have ID tags in all pigs, cattle, horses, sheep etc to keep tabs on where they move.  Are we next?  (It won't hurt, its small and its for your own protection, I can hear them now.)
you can't be offensive to anyone.  no religious activities or displays (Christian) on public property.
government can force you to sell your property and then later resell it to someone else at a huge profit because it will generate more revenue. (We might have this one corraled)
Ane there are probably a lot of others that I haven't thought of.

As bad as things are here, it is worse in other countries.

[slowzuki]

Sort of fits with the start of this thread, the local power company is hogging driftwood to ship to power plants in the US.  How can this possibly make money?  I can't imagine.  They are tearing the heck outta the shore line with a grapple skidder getting the stuff too.  I got to see some 2 ft deep ruts leading from a road right into the water on the weekend, but they won't let us cut the alders on the bank for erosion concerns.

[SwampDonkey]

They did that also up Tobique along the shores of Trousers and Long Lakes. This was 15 years ago. They were scolded for not harvesting the timber before they flooded the land with dams back in the 50's.