Market Slowdown

[Ed_K]

 The housing market is down and all the steps back to the tree are too. What are you or your company doing to get by?
 I run a timberstand improvement co. Dealing with low value products is a hard sell. So I started emailing my congressmen and representitives to find out what can be done to push biomass energy and use more of the low value wood. I'm not getting very far tho. Its an approach of what can you do for me that I hear back  .
 More ideas please.

[Tom]

Those desk jockies probably don't know what you are talking about.

Your Mayor won't either, but he might be more interested in being taught.

Sometimes the best thing to do is take things into your own hands.  If you have a Businessman's club or anything similar, join it, attend and get envolved.  You may be able swing business your way if you rub shoulders with the other businesses in the area.  If nothing else, it helps to build a name and be recognized.

[Ron Wenrich]

You will get nowhere with the politicians unless you are well connected or are bearing gifts (cash campaign contributions).  You may fare better with local governments if you are bringing cash into their towns. 

Local governments are really hard up for cash.  This comes from tax revenues and can be either real estate or income.  That's why developers are welcome with open arms.

The original question is what are we doing to get by.  Well, we aren't waiting for the government, that's for sure.  We are going out and doing the work that's needed.  We don't rely on low grade wood for our sole income.  We are pretty well diversified into all grades.  So, the downturn isn't nearly as severe.

As for biomass, I don't know if you can make it fly.  I've tried in the past, and have been successful, but only if you have a secondary steam user.  On the one project, its cooking tomatoes and producing electricity.  But, it was done with the help of low cost sawdust.  I think you are looking at 10,000 tons/Meg of electricity on an annual basis.  The one I worked on was 21 Meg.  I did the resource study and helped locate markets.

The problem with the slowdown is that energy costs are going up, and the amount of biomass available goes down as production shrinks.  It can put you in a bind real quick.

The best markets for low grade continue to be hogged material for bedding and mulch, fuelwood, scragg mill wood, and pulpwood.  Pellets might even be a better match then biomass.  But, that's expensive to build and is rather energy intensive. 

[Cedarman]

In one sense our business improves as people lose their jobs.  In our area more of them fire up the chain saw and cut cedar trees for income.  A chainsaw, pickup and they are in business. We struggle in good times with enough logs to saw.  Sales do not change much at all.  I get more people coming through looking for jobs though. I purchased a belt sander to give our T&G an even better appearance.  Want to stay in front of the competition.

I am a member of Indiana Forest and Woodland Owners Association.  We give pact money to those state senators and reps that are in position to influence forest issues in committee.  Giving this money gets us their ear.  We want them to be as informed as possible to help them make the right decisions.  Enviros have been doing this for years.  We got a right to practice forestry law enacted which superceded a local ordinance and lets land owners now cut their trees without getting permission from the enviros.

[SteveB]

Energy might be a way for the forest products industry to diversify.  THere are projects being talked about but not sure if much more than that is happening.  I know in northern ontario there's talk about a california based company setting up some type of biomass energy plant. 

In renfrew in eastern ontario there's a company called Ensyn (not sure of spelling) that converts wood waste to a liquid oil type product.  I beleive they make resins and fuel from the stuff.  I think that plant is pretty small scale using a small amount of wood from red pine thinnnings, and they are adjacent to a flooring plant, so I think they get most of their material from the plant's sawdust/scrap. 

I listened to some guys from upper new york state talk about bio fuels from wood, and I think they have at least one plant in operation, but I think they get most of their feedstock from alder or willow plantations (can't remember which one).

The Ontario government is also looking at developing mobile units that can process roadside delimber slash into bio oils (fuel) from full-tree cutovers.  I don't think they've gotten very far on that one.  I beleive one stumbling block is that unlike the wood from crown land, the waste isn't allocated to anyone yet, so no one has rights to it already.  As I understand it, any new opportunities like this have to be offered to first nations people before anyone else, so there's capacity building and negotiations to be done.  Even though it's MNR (gov.) heading up the project, I think the ones working on the project are facing regulatory challenges as they're heading into uncharted territory.

I know that Maine has several wood burning energy plants that were mothballed after the energy crisis of the 70's that have been fired up again in the last few years.  I know that low quality wood from western New Brunswick makes it's way to Main to help fire these plants.  That's Swampdonkey's neck-of-the-woods, so he'd be able to comment on it more.  There's also an article in the latest "Canadian Forest Industries" that talkes about a contractor that sends chips in that direction.

Where I work the pulp mills that are still alive are looking pretty eagerly for wood these days.  With a bunch of Quebec sawmilsl down they have lost some of there usual chip supply.

[jrdwyer]

A nearby hardwood grade sawmill/drykiln  has gotten into kiln dried firewood bagged in plastic and sold at local retail outlets to move low grade material.

Wood pellets are pretty strong right now with a major expansion by a company in the northeast buying raw material from British Columbia recently announced.

Wood for energy seems to have more support in Michigan and the northeast than around here. When a local grain mill recently announced the idea of turning off the natural gas to dry grain and instead use wood chips and shredded tires for fuel, the environmental and labor groups strongly opposed it. Reasons for opposition- union  pipefitters maintain the natural gas pipes, tractor trailers with diesel engines delivering chips causing air pollution, overall increase in regional air pollution, and nearby residents concerned about dirty emissions. I have not read what the IDEM ruled on the proposal, but it really astounded me the level of opposition to a small scale heat/energy plant using raw material that would otherwise end up in the landfill.

I do think that decentralization of heat and electricity production will increase over time as fuel prices rise and new utilization techniques come about. I know that a lot more people in my neighborhood are burning wood this winter than 3 or 4 years ago.

[Phorester]

Are the wood pellets the ones for residential pellet stoves? Do you know what species of wood they make them from?

[SwampDonkey]

I know that Maine has several wood burning energy plants that were mothballed after the energy crisis of the 70's that have been fired up again in the last few years.  I know that low quality wood from western New Brunswick makes it's way to Main to help fire these plants.  That's Swampdonkey's neck-of-the-woods, so he'd be able to comment on it more.  There's also an article in the latest "Canadian Forest Industries" that talks about a contractor that sends chips in that direction.

It's a Quebec based company (Boralex) in Fort Fairfield, Maine and I think one other in Maine that was sold to GP in OldTown. A lot of hog fuel from saw mills like Frasers, Crabbes and Irving heads that way. Some of those companies own mills in Maine also. I think they take 200 truck loads a week at the 'Fort'. They also own Biomass energy plants in France to.

There was an article last month about it in Atlantic Forestry Review. The Price of Power

[Corley5]

As published in the Gaylord Herald Times

"BAGLEY TWP. - A wood pellet manufacturer with a ready European market announced Monday plans to purchase the idled Georgia-Pacific (G-P) Gaylord particleboard plant and create approximately 100 new jobs.

President and CEO Chris Delusky of Upper40, a sustainable wood products company, who was in Gaylord Monday, said the transaction is expected to be completed by mid-December and he hopes to re-open the facility and begin production of wood pellet fuel by the end of this year. Initially, he said, there will be an immediate need for 40 employees to get the plant up and running. Within the next year he envisions expanding the workforce to approximately 100 with hopes of further growth in the near future.

G-P spokesperson Melody Root confirmed Tuesday it had entered into an agreement with Upper40 for the sale of the Gaylord plant. "We're very happy to hear that there will be new jobs coming to Gaylord."

"Finally, something positive is happening in Otsego County," was Bagley Township supervisor Bill Giles reaction Tuesday to the impending sale of the G-P plant. "After so much recent economic bad news this is a step in the right direction. Hopefully it will have a trickle-down effect for the chip suppliers and other businesses that relied on Georgia-Pacific and help our economy here."

"We are going to get up and running quickly," said Delusky. "From what we can project, we have the customers in Europe and expect to begin shipping 60-90 days after startup," said the CEO, who has been with the family-owned Detroit hardwood mill-working company Public Lumber Company since 1994. This is the first business venture for Upper40, which Delusky indicated is being backed by GE Commercial Finance. He declined to comment on the purchase price of the G-P facility on Dickerson Road.

"We're excited about this venture and look forward to locating in Gaylord," he remarked. "This will be a good thing for the community. It took a long time to negotiate a deal with Georgia-Pacific but we now have a definite agreement," Delusky said. The transaction will include purchase of all 914 acres of the plant, including the N-4 facility which had been closed prior to G-P's decision to cease all operations in Gaylord on March 6.

According to Delusky, pellet production would take place in the area where particleboard was produced and Upper40 would be looking for someone to use the N-4 facility.

Otsego County Economic Alliance Executive Director Jeff Ratcliffe - who Delusky said "has done a great job of answering our questions and providing assistance in helping us to make the decision to locate here" - said the Alliance had been working with Delusky to bring the wood pellet operation to Gaylord.

"What this means for Gaylord is we're going to have a large employer back in this plant now that the property has been purchased and will make it a more accessible property for other potential businesses," Ratcliffe said Monday. "Chris has a strong business sense. They have been one of the prospects we have been working with from almost the beginning."

Delusky said earlier in the year his company had been in the process of planning a wood pellet plant in Manistee on the west side of the state, until he made an inquiry into purchasing some of the equipment at the closed plant in Gaylord. "As we walked through the plant a light bulb went on in my mind," Delusky said of Upper40's decision to locate in here rather than Manistee. "We could see that it would meet our need to produce pellets. The kilns and dryers and other equipment were already there."

Further investigation into the G-P plant convinced Delusky it would be a good fit for his new company. "The way the plant was set up and the care placed on maintenance of the facility after it had closed, all fit well into our business model."

Delusky said the supply network already in place for wood chips as previously established between local chip suppliers and G-P, as well as "an inexhaustible and highly sustainable product," were major factors in choosing Gaylord.

Delusky also cited tax abatement incentives through the recent designation by Bagley Township of the G-P plant as an economic development zone for potential businesses locating there, as another factor in his choice.

"Truck and rail transport were also a huge reason for locating here," he said. "We have a great place here to move our product and get it to the ports we need to use in shipping to our customers in Europe."

As to who will actually be working at the new wood chip plant, Delusky said that has not been determined but he expects to hold a meeting for former G-P employees to tell them of Upper40's plan and what their needs will be.

"We don't expect we will need as many production workers. It's not like particleboard production, which tends to be more labor intensive than making wood pellets," he explained.

Delusky said he would be looking for workers skilled in areas such as maintenance, milling operators and office and management staff. He added that any prospective employees would need to register through Michigan Works! at 111 Michigan Ave., stressing the company would not be accepting applications at the G-P plant. "We expect that sometime after Thanksgiving we will be ramping up and looking for those workers we will need to get this operation up and running.""

This is good news for the area but what about a domestic market?

[Tom]

That makes me happy all the way down here. 

[jrdwyer]

New England wood pellet is the company that recently announced a major expansion. I believe they mostly get regional raw material, but the Palmer reload and packaging facility in Palmer, MA is supposed to be getting pellets by rail from bettle damaged forests in BC. Here is a link describing them:

http://www.pelletheat.com/about/index.php

[Cedarman]

Last Sept. Cedarworks, the company that bought most of our cedar for years quit buying. Subbed all the work to the Amish and China.  I quit supplying because the price went down not up.  Cedarworks is now building 3 pellet mills. 

By the middle of next year there looks to be a huge increase in pellet production.  Is there enough market to suck up these pellets?

Remember last year when pellets were scarce and the price high.  Will there be overproduction and the price plummet?  This scenerio has happened many times before.  Only those that can live through the price crash will survive.

Hate to rain on the pellet parade, but there are an awful lot of companies jumping into pellets.

[SwampDonkey]

My folks looked into a pellet stove 6 years ago. You could get all the pellets you need, but they were expensive. It's kind of new for this area, so you just know it's going to be costly before you ask.  It would have been cheaper to burn stove oil. They installed a propane fireplace for backup (never gets used) and a Heat Pump which is cheaper to run and the electric bill for the whole house is way cheaper than using oil or propane. Are pellets putting out more BTU per pound that regular ol' firewood?

Ok, just visited a few websites for some info:

Weight
pellets: 40lb/ft³ minimum standard (10 % MC)

air dry hard maple or beech (20% MC) 48lb/ft³

BTU's
pellets: 8000 Btu/lb

air dry hard maple or beech: 6000 BTU/lb (20 % MC) In drier climates it's closer to the pellet figure at 10 % MC. The MC of your stove wood also improves when stored in a heated basement that continues to dry your wood. So, depending on your situation you could pretty much assume the same BTU's. 

1.3 x difference

Price
pellets currently ranges anywhere from $120-200 per ton

stove wood ranges from $45-80 /ton very much dependent on pulpwood market in my area

factor 1.3 x into stove wood price because of difference in BTU. $59-104 / ton


Corley!!! Bring me some stove wood. 

From my stand point, I get all my wood for the season hauled into my yard, takes me 3 days to get it stored into the basement all ranked up and I haven't got to go shopping for 40 lb bags of pellets as the need arrives. Also, I haven't got all those heavy plastic bags to dispose of and as everyone knows, I hate plastic. 

[Nora]

Here is a link to a calculator that will help you decide whether it's more cost efficient to heat with wood pellets, electricity or oil - from the Pellet Fuels Institute.

http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm

There are enough issues for the politicians to play with, but there are a lot of groups working behind the scenes on biomass for energy. Right now, the forestry part of the equation is under-represented, but here are a few hopeful examples:
http://www.fuelsforschools.org/
http://smallwoodnews.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=123 (this one is about whole tree pellets)
http://smallwoodnews.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=228 (about making ethanol from wood chips)

We try to keep the latest information posted on smallwoodnews.com.

Nora

[beenthere]

About 20 years ago in Northern MN, there were a few schools converted to burning pellets (I may be off a few years there). It has been a continuing and interesting thing to do, and does rely on some help from the Fed's to get and keep the ball rolling. Grant money is an important part of the equation, as well as tax incentives from locals wanting support for local businesses.
I've been surprised that wood pellets haven't made bigger inroads in the fuel supply part of the economy. Gathering material from the forest is likely a tough thing to do economically. Not as easy as pumping the black liquid 'gold'. 

[Ed_K]

 Corley 5, if the plant in Gaylord is like New England Woodpellets they won't be able to keep up  . Newengland has the bagging plant is going and the owner is talking of another plant somewhere in New York now.
 I read in the newpaper that the Russel Ma. chip burning plant currently in the permitting stages is getting a lot of flack from the NIMBY's whining emissions and trucking. I tried talking to the politicians about changing a currently burning coal plant to change to chips,but you need to personally know the plant owners to get anywhere  .
 As for moving low grade wood just to a landing is costing me $12.60 a ton and buyer want to pay $12. This is just like trying to milk cows for a living.
 Oh, their paying $279. ton for pellets here.

[SwampDonkey]

There are a couple characters here trying to promote using wood for gasification. One of them worked for me and spend more time running all over the place promoting it and stirring interest then he did spinning the blade on his saw some weeks. I think it's gonna be a hard winter for him, because it affected his pay cheque at the end of the week.  Anyway, the plan behind this scheme includes 'gathering' waste wood thinned from stands and gathered by machine. I would really like to see his math and figures on costs so I can review them, because I can't see it being profitable or cost effective energy production. The idea of gasification isn't hair brained by any means, but the means of procuring the energy source and maintaining a steady flow while keeping a handle on costs is a little scary. I can't see it getting too far. You need good sized wood, not pole wood, sticks and brush. I'de rather see a bioenergy plant set up to take poor wood. We have thousands, if not millions of cords in the woods that pulp mills won't even take from private woodlots, let alone sawmills. Stuff like culvert logs, pasture spruce, pocket rot, hemlock shake wood... to name a few. One problem I can see is stands would have to be managed to leave some of this stuff for birds and wildlife. But, if done proper we have so much of it that it shouldn't become an issue. A proper management plan needs to be followed. Not every stick standing is meant to be perfect, although it would be nice. Another problem is the pricing, it's going to have to be less value than the pulpwood market or the mills are going to be screaming and the whole thing will be shut down by industry lobby, simple as that. Why will the mills be screaming? because people will ship their good pulp with the poor stuff to the power plants, because it costs money to separate the stuff. Yes, they already have to do it and aren't being paid for the junk now, so if they can get something.... it's better then nut'n.

[Ron Wenrich]

You will hardly be able to out compete coal.  I tried in a few spots, and coal quickly cut its cost.  Coal also has a lot more btus/ton than wood, so there is a storage and delivery issue.  Coal is deleivered to yard by rail, and is a lot cheaper to transport than trailerloads of wood.  Not, that it can't be done, just that its difficult.

The largest problem with chip wood is the high moisture content.  That moisture has to be driven off somehow, or the available btus aren't as high.  Hardwoods have 8000 btus/lb for dried wood.  Those btus start to go down as the moisture content goes off.  Some of your available heat will have to be used to drive off the water.

What we used in the one plant was a fluidized bed boiler.  Material is reduced to a pretty small size - about like sawdust.  It is blown in and kept in suspension.  Ignition is above the boiler floor.  Moistiure content is not as much of an issue due to the high heat factor.

[SwampDonkey]

They pretty much put the 'kye bosh' on the rail system here and tore up the tracks and let the ice jams tear out the bridges. 

My whole take on the biomass energy issue is wood utilization, it's not about competing with coal or oil. It also reduces the total dependence on something that has to be brought across borders and is diminishing in abundance. It's also about generating some cash flow from a product that costs $$ to separate from the pulp and logs that mills won't buy and can't use. I've seen whole loads of wood go by the marketing board window and said to myself, that'll be sent back to the waste pile.  Now if we had some place that could use that wood, then the logger as well as the public can benefit from it.  . In every annual meeting I've attended for the last few years I here the question: "Where can I get rid of my junk wood?" No one has yet answered the call. 


The heating plant for instance in Fredericton, provides heat for the entire University and it's residence buildings as well as the Regional hospital. They save $$millions a year in heating costs. What are they using? Hog fuels from sawmills. Been using it for years.

[jrdwyer]

SwampDonkey,

An air exchange heat pump in New Brunswick? Does it have to go into straight electric resistance heating below 20 degrees F? I know our Carrier electric heat pump does well down to about 20 degrees. Our total electric bill only gets as high as $140 during the coldest winter month. The electric rates is $.08/kwh. Our average size house is moderately well insulated, but it does need some new windows.

Speaking of heat pumps, a company called Hallowell International out of Bangor, Maine has just come out with a supposedly much better heat pump that is suitable for northern climates and will also reduce electical demand in milder climates due to greater efficiency. Here is the link:

http://www.gotohallowell.com/

If this product is as good as promised, then it could mean a big shift away from natural gas heating and also the need for more power plants. Maybe the new power plants being proposed could be designed to efficiently burn a variety of fuels and not just coal? Based on this recent article, the US power industry is stuck in coal mode:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-12-12-coal-usat_x.htm

[SwampDonkey]

A lot of retired folks returning 'home' and building new homes are using heat pumps. The market has pretty much started here within the last 6 or 7 years. I don't know enough about them to talk lingo, but my electric bill here at the house is around $80 in winter and the folks pay around $350 and that's for heating and regular electric use. Oil up here is close to $0.85/litre I think, and you'd burn 500 litres a month easy. Wood might be cheaper but ya gotta handle the stuff , in and out the door. Most folks want to take it easier on the bones when they retire, unless your an old stingy miser that's gonna take his loot behind him in the hearse. 

[Nora]

As published in the Gaylord Herald Times

"BAGLEY TWP. - A wood pellet manufacturer with a ready European market announced Monday plans to purchase the idled Georgia-Pacific (G-P) Gaylord particleboard plant and create approximately 100 new jobs.

Thanks for the article! I've had an awful lot of gloom and doom mill closing stories to add to smallwoodnews.com. It's great to have something positive to add!

[MTCCR]

Although its challenging to make profitable products using "woody" biomass, we see it done all the time, the following link will take you to a story on our forum where a company (Forest Energy Corp., Show Low, AZ) is making a commercial grade whole tree pellet using Pinon Pine http://smallwoodnews.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=123

[Ed_K]

 This puzzles me, I was under the impression that softwood doesn't make a quaility wood pellet. Whats the difference between Pinion pine and White pine?

[MTCCR]

This puzzles me, I was under the impression that softwood doesn't make a quaility wood pellet. Whats the difference between Pinion pine and White pine?

Many of the residential pellet manufactures in the west routinely blend other species with their desired specie, one here in Montana likes to use primarly d-fir but ends up blending pine in order to have enough feedstock to meet demand.

[Ken]

As I understand it once trees are reduced to a dust and dried to a MC% of around 10% the BTU value does not vary a lot between species.  Pines apparently have some of the higher heat values due to the larger amount of resin found in them. 

A group of investors in central NB are looking at setting up a small pellet plant along the Nashwaak river valley over the next few months.   The intention is to use low grade wood that industry does not want and turn it into pellets.  Although initially a large portion of the product will likely head to the strong New England market the local opportunities will only grow as the supply of pellets increases.  There are people who would like to buy a pellet stove but they have heard that pellets are hard to come by. 

There is some concern that too many suppliers will begin to drive the cost of pellets down.   I have just returned from a trip to Europe and the pellet industry there is huge.  The demand for pellets has grown steadily over the past decade and projections are that it will increase for the foreseeable future.  That will also create viable markets for pelletized material.  Bulk home delivery in western Austria is nearly 280 Euro/MT.  That is over $400 MT Cdn. 

Our dependance on high priced foreign oil needs to change.  We have a huge natural renewable resource that could be used extensively for heating and power generation.  It will take some will on the part of governments to really make the biomass industry grow although I believe it is a viable alternative. 

Ken

[Nora]

A pinon is a shrubby kind of tree.

It seems that a number of areas around the US have types of trees that take over: Eastern Red Cedar, Tamarisk, ... Great biofuel opportunity!

Besides wood pellets for homes, I'm seeing more news about industry and public buildings being heated with wood chips. In the valley south of us there are two schools being heated with wood: Darby and Victor. I read their report for the last year's heating costs. Here's their summary:

SUMMARY
Cost of wood chips (760 tons) $ 18,170.00
Cost of operating boiler and participating in fuels study 4,700.00
(approximately $9.00 per ton of fuel used)
Supplemental fuel oil 1,935.00
DPS 2005-2006 Cost $ 24,805.00

Comparison of projected cost had the school heated with fuel oil:
Historic usage cost of fuel oil $115,000.00
(50,000 gal @ $2.30/gal, avg. cost winter 2005-2006)
Estimated 2005-2006 cost savings $ 90,195.00

The full report can be found on:
http://smallwoodnews.com/Docs/PDF/FuelsSchools/Darby2005-6.pdf

I think we'll see both more supply and more demand!

Happy New Year everyone!

[Ed_K]

 I'm looking into making sawdust from lowgrade pine,has anyone seen a machine that I can feed in small logs and have sawdust like you use for bedding drop out the bottom? I've googled grinders but they all start with chips or small chunks to start.What I'd really like would be a machine thats low RPMs that I can drive with a farm tractor.

[Furby]

I think you want a shaver.

Yup, google "shaving mill".

[Ed_K]

 I looked at the salsbe shaver 50 Gs,the horse people like the shavings but they have suppliers in my area. I just want to grind junk curvie logs and not price myself out of it.

[Ron Wenrich]

Try a tub grinder.  I'm not sure on what size of screen you would use, but we use them to double grind mulch.  Or you could turn that low grade pine into mulch instead of dust, and get a little better price.

For a higher production end, you could use a wood hog.  That would produce a good amount of mulch/dust.  But, you wouldn't run that with a farm tractor.

For ease of handling, reducing to chips is a lot easier than trying to reduce whole logs.  I saw one guy who used to take a debarker and grind a log down until he couldn't get anymore mulch.  He then put the rest of the log into a wood hog.  It paid more than sawing.

We have one mill that went from sawing into the mulch market.  They also make bedding.  Their main resource is to buy wood chips.  They then put them through a wood hog.  The mulched material is used for landscaping, animal bedding, and playground cover.  They also sell it to parks for use on trails.  They no longer have a sawmill.  http://www.zeager.com/ 

With good marketing, you can have a really good business.

[rebocardo]

> my congressmen and representitives to find out what can be done to push biomass energy

America was blessed with three great natural resources, water, trees, and coal.

Water and trees are renewable within a lifetime.

Maybe starting on a state level, if you required every new house built by a contractor, to be built with a factory chimney made to national UL specs, in 10-20 years you could drive down oil and natural gas consumption from overseas suppliers and save money doing it. We already require 1.5 gallon toilets. Requiring below ground heat pumps would not be a bad idea either. Kind of stupid not to use the natural cooling and heating of the earth to cut fuel bills.

[Cedarman]

We could accomplish a change in energy source in 10 year with a stroke of the pen. But not without a lot of screaming and kicking by the vested interests.

Pass a law that increases taxes on gasoline, diesel and natural gas by 20 cents per gallon each year for 10 years.  This gives people time and incentive to use renewable sources of energy.  I am now ducking for cover.

[farmerdoug]

Cedarman,

They have high taxes on fuel in Europe and it provides incentive to use alternative energy sources.  You maybe on to a good idea and the government is receptive to raising taxes anyways.

Farmerdoug

[beenthere]

...........Pass a law that increases taxes on gasoline, diesel and natural gas by 20 cents per gallon each year for 10 years.  This gives people time and incentive to use renewable sources of energy.  I am now ducking for cover.

You should duck.    Like that mentality worked so well for getting smokers to quit? 
Your tax idea would put the squeeze on the little guy, the so-called majority of middle income, but those who could afford it would go about their business -- making more money to pay the higher taxes and passing on the increase to the middle income earners.  Can't see how it would work.  Stay the heck out of it, and let the 'shortage' of oil dictate the alternative fuels. The shortage won't happen 'overnight' but will happen over a fairly long period of time (time that can be used to introduce alternative fuels as maybe is happening now).

Your idea would get more cars off the road, more people on the welfare rolls, fewer cars sold, more car producers out of business, which would lay off more workers, which would mean more on the welfare rolls, and on and on... spiraling down - - - at least as I picture it.  But in the meantime, to correct that problem, the gov't would introduce a higher minimum wage so there would be no poor people who couldn't afford the higher taxes, adding to the spiral.......scary, in my opinion.
Government cannot manipulate the economics, other than helping businesses (simpler rules and encouragement) build and grow that will hire more people that will buy more goods and services to get, and maintain, a strong economy.

[Ed_K]

 The only way I would go for more taxes on fuel is if it was for medical,dental and workers comp insurance  . It works in other countries why not here?

[farmerdoug]

I think the laws that regulate the alternative energy sources be loosened.  Laws should also be passed that encourage it.  I do not think that they should offer incentives though as it costs us more in the long run.  They make it real hard to start new plants and then offer money from the taxpayers to encourage them to start onw.  That is just stupid.

Beenthere is right on letting the market correct itself and push alternate fuels on its own.  But the only problem is that the government has a way of messing it up for the little guy and helping the big business.

I think that if someone generates electricity the utilities should be required to buy it at market rate.  I would be willing to invest in solar, wind, or cogeneration if I could sell to excess to the utilities to offset the power used when I am not producing any.

Farmerdoug

[Mooseherder]

I think the laws that regulate the alternative energy sources be loosened.  Laws should also be passed that encourage it.  I do not think that they should offer incentives though as it costs us more in the long run.  They make it real hard to start new plants and then offer money from the taxpayers to encourage them to start onw.  That is just stupid.

Beenthere is right on letting the market correct itself and push alternate fuels on its own.  But the only problem is that the government has a way of messing it up for the little guy and helping the big business.

I think that if someone generates electricity the utilities should be required to buy it at market rate.  I would be willing to invest in solar, wind, or cogeneration if I could sell to excess to the utilities to offset the power used when I am not producing any.

Farmerdoug

I like your thinking.
To me alternative energy is a matter of our Country's security.
I think the moderate temperatures so far this Heating season have kept Opec Oil at bay. If'n it would be below freezing for long periods, prices might be over 70 a barrel, currently around 60.
The fact that major oil companies are the ones involved with Solar, Hydro, Wind, Natural Gas, Fuel cells and Biomass interests isn't good for us energy users. Maybe they are the only players that don't have considerable investment problems.
Anyway, IMO, all alternative energy resources need to be coupled with more Gulf and Artic Drilling with less dependence on countries that just assume see us dead.
Add the threat of China's Oil based economy in the making to our supplier issues. (Hate us)
We got some trouble coming if'n we keep our head in the sand.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Y'all really don't get it.

  Right now, TEXAS has considered BANNING all Biofuel for vehicle use. There was so much complaining, the agenda was "Shelved" pending further study. 

  It was pushed back to 2007, Late in the year.  Big Oil is getting richer "Blending" a little ( 1/10 gallon Bio into 1 galoon of their Diesel, to the tune of $1.00 per gallon, subsidy. YOU try to get that. Now that Bio fuel is getting major influx, The price of Methanol to convert FFA's has risen 50% or more, from $1.75 /gallon, to over $4.00.  Guess where Methanol comes from, Natural Gas. 

  Even though ULDS is now on the market, emitting MORE emissions, the use of Vegetable oil is a nearly necessary item to add "lubricity" to the new "Drier" Diesel.

  It goes straight down hill from here.

  One Forum I am associated with, just took a poll about how much MEMBERS have made so far this year, back yard style. Over 20,000 gallons of homemade Bio. Just think of what's being produced by Big Oil.

  BTW, this crap talk of "it costs more to produce than you get" is just that, CRAP. 

[TexasTimbers]

The oil companies, all of them down the line including the drillers, the refineries, and the biggest players in the oil game - governments (the taxes they charge are practically pure profits inasmuch as they are not part of production) the  charge more and make exhorbitant profits because they can.

Someone tell me . . . . what are "we" the user going to do about it? Nothing. And they know it. they will keep it just low enough to prevent a revolution but even that won't happen. It used to be he who had the gold had the power but as we have known for 150 years now he who has the oil has both the gold and the power. 

Oh well. The wise investor will put his money with the big fatcats for the long haul because $2 a gallon fule is gone for good. $4+ is coming to a pump near you sooner than you think.

[farmerdoug]

FD,

Are you talking about the biodiesel forum run by Shaun of the BioBeetle fame?

If so what is your handle there?  I peruse that site all of the time.  I am really thinking on getting into biodiesel too.

Farmerdoug

[PineNut]

Cedarman, I see what you are saying abut taxes on fuel. We could stand an increase tax on petroleum fuels but only if it were to be used to help the US to become energy independent. But there are two major problems with this.

1.  How to keep the politicians out of it.
2.  How to keep the greedy hands from putting it in their own pockets.

If these two problems could be solved, I could go for it but I see no way it could be done.  So lets not tax it any more.

[OneWithWood]

FD and FD,
I also peruse that forum quite a bit.  My handle there is bdubet.  You may also find me on the dieselstop where I use OWW.  I am actively making bio diesel from waste donut oil.  I will be posting some pics of my setup in the alternative fuel thread whenever I remember to take the camera out to the workshop with me.  I am brewing fuel to use in my equipment during the warmer months and as supplement heat for the greenhouses during winter.
One nice thing about methanol, it is not consumed in the process and by building a separate still much of it is recoverable.  If you use potassium hydroxide as the catalyst the product left over after recovering the methanol is a potassium fertilizer.

[Fla._Deadheader]

    I saw yer handle on there. Didn't put it to a face, though. 

[farmerdoug]

My handle is ---
drumroll---

farmerdoug

I wonder who else from here cruises the site also.  Maybe Quartlow as I know he is into biodiesel also.

Farmerdoug

[Ron Wenrich]

Government cannot manipulate the economics, other than helping businesses (simpler rules and encouragement) build and grow that will hire more people that will buy more goods and services to get, and maintain, a strong economy.

Since when doesn't government manipulate economics?  They're called subsidies and they tip the balance of making one commodity more favorable in the marketplace over another.  Subsidies comes in several different forms.  Tax breaks, contracts, exclusions, limited tort are just a few that come to mind. 

I remember talking to my congressman back during the OPEC problems in the '70s.  We had a farmer that was producing ethanol for less than 50¢ a gallon and had a high quality hog feed as a side product.  The government shut down his illegal still.  What was government pushing?  Coal to diesel - even way back then.

I asked the congressman about why they didn't recognize ethanol as a good alternative to petroleum products.  He said the technology was unproven.  What it boils down to is that the government cannot control thousands of small producers.  They can control several large producers.  The government cannot function without tax money, and alternative energy, especially solar and wind, do not generate tax money or taxes can be easily avoided as in biodiesel and ethanol. 

So, the government gives big companies an economic edge and that controls the marketplace.

[SwampDonkey]

We have a Milk Marketing Board. It's good and bad. It reduced the number of dairy farmers that were not profitable, mostly hobbyists (you can not make a living off the cream and milk of 8 cows). It also discouraged the hobbyist as he had to invest a lot of money to get into serious farming. I don't think that part is right at all, it discourages new entrants into farming. At the beginning the Board gave you the quota at no cost. You had to stay within the quota or be fined. Some small operators sold their quota a few years into it and made more on the quota than the cows were worth.    But, too many participants drives the price down and kills our fragile maritime market. We used to have a small dairy truck come from the coop to pick up the farmer's cream in cans, miss that part. They used to make butter right here locally in Florenceville COOP. But, to tell the truth things are a lot more sanitary now. They test that milk after each load and if your lot contaminated that load, you get a bill for the load. Before, 'ole Bessy's tale could have swished around in the milk pale a few times.  And you always wonder how clean the guys pales or separator was. I know some that were not too clean. Maine milk is subsidized and the surplus is bought by the government. That is why it is half the price of ours. It's no cheaper to produce milk there, than it is here.

[Cedarman]

Ron you are right, very right in by book.
Letting economics sort this out might be fine, but  one reason to use renewable fuels is to lower the amount of greenhouse gases from fossil fuels.

The government supervises patents which by law prevent you from making a cheap product.  Take roundup ready soybeans, farmers can't use there own crop for seed without forking over big bucks. Yet they  the south American farmers get by without paying the fee.  Government controls us from birth to grave. We just think we are free.

[TexasTimbers]

Beenthere,
Governments are at the top of the food chain. I could stop there but but a little more elaboration would say that in our Republic our founders had the novel idea that through a never-before attempted, delicate tapestry of checks and balances "the people" would have the final word, but that also the central government would be very limited. It's main purpose was to protect our shipping lanes and from invasion and the like.
I do agree however, that in our complicated world, it must extend to certain other limited areas and that role has been redefined constantly since our inception.
I could pointlessly go on and on but my point is that to think that government do not control economics, even in our "free economy" society is not seeing the forest for the trees. It is IMPOSSIBLE to conduct business legally in this American system of "free enterpirse" without paying a plethora of taxes some 3, 4, 5 times on the same equipment and tools and inventory etc.
The government is THE ultimate controller of big, small, and medium sized business ventures in this country. They do it through taxation and regulation. They use the several states as collection agencies and they do it directly.
I'm suprised you didn't know this.

[Ed_K]

 The gov and eco's are working overtime for big business interest's, they've got the health departments believing wood smoke is bad. Their starting to curb or out right ban outdoor furnaces,next it will be indoor stoves and furnaces.There is some bad in smoke but I've been under the impression that smoke was mostly carbon which tree need to grow. Thus we're right back to oil. Thoughts? Am I wrong?

[SwampDonkey]

Well as far as I'm concerned, if I can't use wood, then come try and stop me and try and take out my wood furnace. 

[Cedarman]

The nice thing about the sawdust stove WM is testing is that there is no smoke, even with green sawdust except for a few seconds when it first kicks on.  There are ways to burn wood on a small scale that does not emit smoke.

Also you have to make $3.28 at your job to clear $2.30 to buy a gallon of gas after taxes are taken from your check.

In this country you can not...
buy what you want  No sunday sales of beer in In.
do any number of things without a license  ie  electrician, plumber, doctor, teacher
build what you want where you want because of zoning
print money
driving is a priviledge, not a right.  priviledge conferred by the state
take a signal beamed to your house and do anything you want with it without pay for the priviledge
if in business, you must tell the government what you make and how much of it. I have to by law tell how many feet of softwood I saw each year and how much I have on hand on Dec 31.
they want livestock owners to have ID tags in all pigs, cattle, horses, sheep etc to keep tabs on where they move.  Are we next?  (It won't hurt, its small and its for your own protection, I can hear them now.)
you can't be offensive to anyone.  no religious activities or displays (Christian) on public property.
government can force you to sell your property and then later resell it to someone else at a huge profit because it will generate more revenue. (We might have this one corraled)
Ane there are probably a lot of others that I haven't thought of.

As bad as things are here, it is worse in other countries.

[slowzuki]

Sort of fits with the start of this thread, the local power company is hogging driftwood to ship to power plants in the US.  How can this possibly make money?  I can't imagine.  They are tearing the heck outta the shore line with a grapple skidder getting the stuff too.  I got to see some 2 ft deep ruts leading from a road right into the water on the weekend, but they won't let us cut the alders on the bank for erosion concerns.

[SwampDonkey]

They did that also up Tobique along the shores of Trousers and Long Lakes. This was 15 years ago. They were scolded for not harvesting the timber before they flooded the land with dams back in the 50's.