Is the U.S. Forest Service greedy or reckless?

[BrandonTN]

I'm currently reading Bill Bryson's A Walk in the Woods, his story of hiking the Appalachian Trail, and in it he mentions the doings of the Forest Service...I was wanting to hear your opinions on the matter:


"In fact, mostly what the Forest Service does is build roads.  I am not kidding. There are 378,000 miles of roads in America's national forests.  The Forest Service has the 2nd highest number of road engineers of any government institution on the planet. To say that these guys like to build roads barely hints at their level of dedication. It is the avowed aim of the U.S. Forest Service to construct 580,000 miles of additional forests road by the middle of the next century.
The reason the Forest Serivce builds these roads, is to allow timber compaines to get to previously inaccessible stands of trees. Of the Forest Service's 150 million acres of loggable land, about two-thirds is held in store for the future. The remaining one third-49million acres is available for logging.  It allows huge swathes to be clear-cut, including(to take one recent but heartbreaking example) 209 acres of thousand-year-old redwoods in Oregon's Umpqua National Forest.
In 1987 it casually annoucned that it would allow private timber interests to remove hundereds of acres of wood a year from the venerable and verdant Pisgah National Forest, next door to the Great Smoky Mountain National Park, and that 80 percent of that would be through what it delicately calls "scientific forestry"--clear-cutting to you and me--which is not only a brutal visual affront to any landscape but brings huge, reclkless washoffs that gully the soil, robbing it of nutrients and disrupting ecologies farther downstream, sometimes for miles.  This isn't science. It's rape."




Is Bryson making this stuff up, or is the Forest Service really this wasteful??

[Jeff]

Sounds like environmental rhetoric to me just from the way it is written.  Why do I say that? By using the term "clearcut" as a firebrand to stir emotion for starters. Anyone that has an inkling of science and forestry knows that clear cutting is a valuable tool used for certain circumstance. The term in the hands of the environmental extremist is just a synonym for rape. He says so himself. Stirring emotion is what that paragraph was designed to do. It wasn't written to inform, if it was it would include the reference to fact. It works though. Like gas works for the arsonist.

[jerry-m]

I agree with Jeff 100%

[BrandonTN]

I was wondering about term used, "clear-cut"....I know next to nothing about forestry techniques, but clear-cutting sounded bad.  I'm glad to hear it's not always "bad."

[Tom]

Not only is it "not always bad", it is a viable management tool. 
Here is an example.

I grow pines in a plantation.  Pines do best in what is called "even management stands"  that means that you plant them all at once and then harvest them through thinnings to get different products throughout the life of the stand.   You might do a thinning and get nothing but sticks, then the next time pulpwood, then chip and saw, then saw logs, then veneer and poles.  Along about pulpwood time you may start harvesting needles.

After the last harvest, you prepare the ground and start over again.  Just like growing corn.

If something happens to the stand to harm it, like fire, insects or disease, you can't take out the bad trees and interplant young seedlings.  The youngsters won't grow and the the trees that are left may not be populated densely enough to support the farm through the rest of the rotation.  So the entire stand may be "clear-cut" and replanted.

The problem I had with my stand was an ignorant cable television company that drove their trucks all over my hybrid seedlings.  Because I thought I could prop up the damaged trees, I let volunteers take over the empty spots.  Now I have a stand that is too dense and one that will be difficult to thin.  I'm going to try but I may have to clear-cut and start over.  Ten years wasted.

[barbender]

 I'm with Jeff too- Sounds like lots of accusations without anything to back it up.  I don't know first hand how the Forest Service operates in other parts of the country, but around here they are cautious to a fault. The Chippewa National Forest, where I live, is supposed to be a "working forest". That is in the forests original charter, it was a forest designed to be used for sustainable harvest. However, over the last few decades the Chippewa has seen fewer and fewer cords of wood coming out. A lot of people blame this for the high stumpage prices we had, there wasn't enough wood coming out. As for the Forest Service "having the second highest number of road engineers of any government institution on the planet"- well that statement is just ridiculous. What "government institution on the planet" comes in first place.  I can tell you they are not building any new roads around here, they don't even maintain the ones they have.  One road I travel often has not been graded for at least 2 years.  It is mostly potholes, you can average about 10 mph on it. I know of timber sales that no one will bid on because the F S will not let you put in a road to get to it. So anyways, maybe other places the F S rapes the land and builds roads at a feverish pace, but it doesn't sound like the Forest Service I know.

[Jeff]

Brandon, here is a post I wrote on an environmental board when addressing someone who used the term clear cut as this man has in the passage above. I was as accurate as possible, but as I recall It was one of those losing battles with the typical extremist. when confronted with fact and honesty, they resort to personal attacks rather then facts of their own. This was back when I thought I could make a difference talking to them. It wont happen because they are idiots. The difference is made when intelligent people see the attempt at conversing with them and obviously see the difference between fact and farce.

Anyhow, here is my little essay to him on clearcut. I forget now his original question.



There is no clear cut answer to that. Yes some clear cuts are certainly bad. Done without conscience or regard to effects on the environment.

You also have many instances where clearcuts are a necessary management tool. I can state two examples. One for reproduction of a desirable timber species and the other is used to create the habitat for an endangered bird species.

Clear cuts for aspen.

In Michigan we clear-cut aspen because it is necessary in order for regeneration. If you simply try to thin or selectively harvest mature trees it will not grow back.  You must open the area to the sun where the roots of the pre existing trees send up 10s of thousands of shoots per acre. In the very first year, that new aspen forest will have trees 3 to 5 feet tall! These young aspen are also a favorite browse food and will be naturally thinned in the first year or two, still being so thick that you can't walk through. Within 10 years you won't tell there was ever a logging disturbance and within 30 to 40 years the cycle can start anew. Aspen trees have a very short live span compared to say oak or maple or pines. So in this instance its a wise thing to clear cut and make use of this fiber or timber.

Clear-cutting Jackpine

In a small area of Michigan lives The kirtland warbler. It was first described in Ohio in 1851.  It is commonly referred to as the jack pine warbler.  This song bird is one of 56 species of wood warblers found in North America. Its nests habitat is jack pine stands from 5-20 years old. It nests no other place in the world and under no other conditions.

Due to situations such as fire supression in the last hundred years the Kirkland warbler habitat shrunk to the point where the bird was near extinction. Less then 200 pair were left. The birds are located during spring mating and nesting by counting the singing males. This is the only time the birds vocalize. all other times of the year they are silent. It spends the fall and winter seasons in the Bahamas.  The warblers other big threat is from the cowbird. A paratistic bird that lays its eggs in the nest of the warbler which hatches first and crowds out  the Kirtland's young resulting in thier death.


Adult Kirtland's warblers are lightweight birds, weighing 1/2 oz. ts life expectancy is two years. Breeding males have plumage of blue-gray with black streaks.

We now have thousands and thousands of acres of jackpine areas set aside for this small bird. These lands are clearcut on a rotating basis to create the right age class of jackpines for the warbler. A pair of Kirtland's warblers requires at least eight acres of young jack pine forest to nest, but usually needs 30 to 40 acres to raise a nest of young. Once a forest reaches a certain age, it will no longer be used for nesting.

Fire can still be a management tool for these areas which was how habitat was naturally created in the past, but for many areas it simply makes more sense to harvest and replant and utilize the resource rather then burning it away.

You can learn more about the warbler here:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/hmnf/pdf_files/warbler.pdf

So, my answer to you is I would not use the term clear-cut as an all encompassing term of good or bad. Sometimes it can be the end of a forest but sometimes it can be the birth.
Jeff Brokaw

[Jeff]

Man, I cant believe I found the original stuff from clear back when. I see some of the really nasty stuff that was written has been deleted, but its still an interesting read.  We generally stay on our own side of the fence any more.

Link to clear cut discussion on an environmental forum

[Tom]

It was a while ago.  If anyone is interested in the adventure, here is the link to the thread:
Tom and Jeff walk on the Green side.

It's a 4 page thread that leads you to an Environmental forum where you should be prepared for some lengthy posts.  Don't take the easy way out and brief them.  You must read all of the posts, both pro and con to understand what types of arguements the Wackos present.  It is good information to have in case you find yourself in the same position.  Logic doesn't work.

I had to go look too, Jeff. 

[Cedarman]

I've read several of Bryson's books.  I remember the passage quoted and remember thinking this is some of Bill's exageration.  He is very prone to that.  I think it makes for good reading. Bill's background is writing, not environmentalism.  He lives in England now.  Might be a good idea to write him a letter with some real facts.  Might be you know what in the wind too. 

What is the real truth?  How many miles of road does the forest service build each year?  Education is our only hope.  Who would have thought they would allow deer hunting in state parks in Indiana?  The biologists set up plots and educated the public the problems the deer caused.  Kaboom.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  When they clear cut around here it does look bad for a few years.  But then the deer population gets larger because there is more for them to eat.  As well turkeys and rabbits do well in the areas.
  But as the bumper sticker on the back of my truck says:

                        IF YOU OBJECT TO LOGGING,
                        TRY USING PLASTIC TOILET PAPER!

  How many people have you heard ever say that they love the warmth of their concrete floor?   You know that with computers we could do away with paper.   We could build our homes from dirt and rock.

  Here in Arkansas they raped the land in the 1920 so starting in the 50's they stopped alot of logging in the forest and now all the stands are the same age and dying from red oak borers because there have been no fires in 30 years.   Seems after many hours of study and millions of dollars wasted they have learned that axe and fire are really good for a healty forest. 
  Me I do my part to help.

[snowman]

Yelling clearcut in a crowd of uniformed , or should i say misinformed american people is like yelling fire in a theater.I started logging in 72 and have seen quite an evolution in clearcutting practices. It used to be that the FS clearcut for economic resons. A big square on the side of a mountain where you take everything that will make a log is very efficient and maximizes profit. The "runoff" that the enviros scream about was overblown and far less than occurs from catastrophic fires.Wildlife like elk and mule deer loved clearcuts and now that they are rarely if ever used ,idaho's elk and mule deer population has plummeted. That being said, I tend to agree with selective logging, it makes for a more steady crop and looks better which keeps the masses of city people flooding into rural america from freaking out.Of course all regions are different though and the cookie cutter approach doesn't always work.In idaho we have mostly uneven age stands of timber where select cuts work well. On the coast of oregon and washington they have mostly even age stands and when they are ripe to harvest theres really nothing worth leaving.I know i'm preaching to the choir here but i can't help myself, this enviro BS always sets me off.

[UrbanLogger]

Way to break out the worms, Brandon--I bet everybody who's posted so far has gotten warmed up enough to save something on their winter heating 

Like everything related to logging and environmentalism, I don't think it's really a simple matter of "this or that". Clearcutting is a loaded term--to a forester it's a legitimate prescription of a silvacultural tool, to an environmentalist it's a description of the depoiling of a natural habitat.

Sure, Aspen only comes back if you clearcut it--it regenerates from it's roots--but what about the White Pine that follows the Aspen if it's not clearcut?

As for FS roads as related to stumpage, it's one of my peeves. The FS does build alot of roads so that industry can get access to remote stands. This effectively subsidizes the harvesting of those trees. Is that fair to the private landowner who has to pay for his own roads out of his stumpage?

The FS builds new roads to get to uncut timber but as others have mentioned, they have a poor track record for maintaining the rods they already have. There's probably as much, if not more water quality problems associated with poorly maintained roads as there is from erosion on harvest sites.

What is really needed is for industry, enviros, congress and the general public to seriously rethink the purpose and desired management of our National Forests and if necessary, write new legislation--real stand-alone legislation, not the perrenial riders on funding bills we see every year. The National Forest management Act of 1975 was the last time this was seriously attempted and the resulting stalemate is hardly producing any desired results.

[Texas Ranger]

Not to mention that every thing east of the Mississippi has be cut at least twice, if not three times, so they are not cutting the "the venerable and verdant Pisgah National Forest", they are cutting forests created by foresters and workers (usually the same). 
And I am highly suspect of the "1000 year old redwoods". redwoods coprice so well that they come back in a vengence after logging.

Highly suspect.

[Tom]

If the problem was all the National Forests then the Forest Service may be a legitimate Target.  The Forest Service is caught between a rock and hard spot.

The panacea is for everyone to come together and smile and hug one another and agree that the forest should be left alone.

If you could have read the posts from the Enviro's on the linked thread, you would realize the frustration one has talking to people who just want to call you names.  Posts were removed that did nothing but create new names for foresters, politicians and the President.  The cleaned up thread appears to be an, almost, civilized argument.  That Genneman Character is nothing but an antagonist anywhere he goes.  That is the jest of the Environmental movement and the wackos.

My dealings with them, which includes the sierra club locally has proven to me that they are generally a misinformed group of joiners with a need to control their surroundings like a junkyard dog.  Whatever they see is theirs, private ownership, economics, logistics or jobs be Dammmed.

If you could see these people lined up along the road next to a private Tree Farm, calling the owner names and slashing tires at night, the plight of the Forestry Service makes more sense.

Too many people attack their perceived problems with finger pointing and "you have to clean up your act",  "We are right and you are wrong because we say so", inflammatory actions.  The bottom line is that they think the world would be a better place without Humans.

I still harbor ill feelings toward the draft card burners, flag burners, rioters, J.fonda's, of the 60's, Environmentalists of 70's and 80's, and the Revolution thinking of the left wing today.  An example is the late uproar of Chavez in NY with Danny Glover and his entourage hugging the dictator on stage.  These people aren't out to fix anything.  They are out to bring down the "establishment" by revolution.  

[thurlow]

I still harbor ill feelings toward the draft card burners, flag burners, rioters, J.fonda's, of the 60's, Environmentalists of 70's and 80's, and the Revolution thinking of the left wing today.  An example is the late uproar of Chavez in NY with Danny Glover and his entourage hugging the dictator on stage.  These people aren't out to fix anything.  They are out to bring down the "establishment" by revolution. 

RIGHT ON, BROTHER..........I thought I was probably the most conservative member, but maybe not.  Can you say LIBERTARIAN?  

[SwampDonkey]

Some of those guys should go for a walk with me (or any other forester) and see a healthy forest with many intervening cuts, especially on mixed wood sites of the Acadian forest. Then look at one of these woodlots where the guy says 'no one has cut wood on this lot since grand dad did in 1948'.

When you grow mixed aspen and softwood in very dense conditions until maturity, 75 % or more of the softwood is usually rotten in the middle, small diameter wood, and short because the aspen whips the tops off the softwood giving them a flat-topped appearance. A lot of those softwood that do find an opening in the canopy are usually in bad shape with just a few live limbs on the top 20 % of the tree or less. When you do find a spruce that is large diameter (especially true on abandoned farms) the tree was open grown much of it's life with great big limbs that no mill wants. If you want to make pulpwood from them the mills want the limbs trimmed flush to the bole so it can be debarked properly. A stand in these conditions is best clearcut because leave trees are stressed and weak and extremely prone to wind fall and breakage. Many stands with mature fir and aspen are nearing decadence and often have a carpet of new fir seedlings that need to be released and aspen will regenerate with suckering. Ground skidding during good seed years and when seed is ripe will increase spruce regen. Spruce will not regenerate well (if at all) in dense stands with no ground disturbance. You should walk a woodlot that had a good component of spruce standing before a harvest and see where the spruce are coming in, skidding trails, yards and road side mainly. Take a GPS and plot a few positions of spruce regen. Get a digital aerial photo that shows the skidding pattern and bring it into a GIS program with the plotted regenerating spruce trees and see where they lie. 

Here is an example of large tooth aspen establishing in a hardwood stand along heavier traveled machine trails. We thinned this 40 acres this fall.



Where machine traffic was light we had hard maple and yellow birch as well as red spruce. Some of the established fir wasn't in good shape because of the skidding of whole tree hardwood that often scraped the bark off the established fir.

[Warren]

There is a certain population of folks who just do not want to be bothered with the facts....  Their minds are like a steel trap. Once it snaps shut on their way of thinking, there is no way you will pry it open for them to see a different view point.  The facts are irrelevant.

Same condition when discussing  Second Amendment and hunting.  I always get a chuckle out of the folks who deride hunters for killing "bambi", but have no issue with buying steak at the local super market...  Somehow they are better because they didn't "kill it" themselves....

Warren

[Furby]

Not that it matters............
I just took a look online.
Forest Service road system:
1996        380,218 miles
1997        378,996 miles
1998        383,000 miles

[Jeff]

Yep, and thousands and thousands of them miles are used by individuals who are interested in driving out to nowhere, grilling veggie burgers over charcoal that they use a whole can of starter fluid to get going, drink their wine squeezed from the vineyards that displaced a forest (true deforestation) then they dance around and play huggie games with the largest most majestic tree in the forest for the last time in so many years that they have now compacted the soil over its roots which is leading to its eventual demise. They dump out their briquettes as they leave for the santa anna winds to fan into flames and blame the forest service when the whole *DanG thing burns down. Actually burned down because the Forest Service was not allowed to do fuel reduction harvests on these same roads. One of the reason they were built to begin with.

Just my humble unsolicited opinion.