30' beam with swingblade ?

[TeenSwinger]

We have had a request to cut 30' 8x12 beams for a guy. He will supply the logs. We need to give him a bid for the job. What kind of things might we need to consider in pricing this job.  We will probably need to tear down the mill after every time, right? What other things might we have to do?
Thanks in advance!

[beenthere]

What species?
How do you plan to carry or move them around? Price on sawn bd ft, or time and blades?
Will any 'losses' (broken beams, rot within log, etc) be on you, or on him? If he supplies 10 logs, and you get 8 beams.....whose loss? Does he pay for 'rejects' or you?

Sounds like a challenging project.

[Captain]

Jacob, pretty hard to add track to your ATS without a way to support it.  Pretty easy with a WPF.   You can use your mid supports on a the track joint, but the tracks will have to be checked for sag with every adjustment.  You will also have to extend your linkage tubes beyond their original length.  All problems with track that goes up and down.  Another reason I like the WPF better..just add track on and cut.

Sent you a PM on your track request.

Captain

[swinging-sawdust]

I orderd 32 feet of track with my ats and it came with two sets of linkage tubes and a third end frame that goes in the middle.One of the legs on the middle end frame  folds up to role the log in.I have not tried anything that long yet but i would think that might help with the sag problem.   Joe

[scsmith42]

Jacob, re your question about things to consider, you may need to use some type of spreader bar to pick up the finished beams for handling and loading, otherwise you could risk breaking them in the middle.  You will also need log handling equipment that is strong enough to pick up a few thousand pounds of log.  Do you have the space in your log yard to maneuver something around this large?  You'll also need a bunch of small wedges to use when making the bottom cut.

I would think that the safe way to bid it would be by the hour, at his location, with him being responsible for log and beam handling. 

Let us know how it turns out.  I've got 65' of track with my WPF, but I haven't cut anything that long yet.

Good luck.  Scott

[CALSAW]

I think that handling will be your biggest challenge. The biggest I've cut is 20' 8x10", redwood, you need to be carefull and plan out how to remove the beams without hurting anything, or wacking the mill. How big are these logs? Are you going to be getting more than 1 beam per log? Does the customer want other dimensions or just the beams? On my job I was cutting large logs and reset for each one, we pulled the beams out the end of the mill with a winch onto the forks of a large tractor. You will probably be dealing with alot more weight, I would try to figure how much these 30's will weight, based on size, species, moisture content. When I am building houses we generally hire a crane to set pieces this large. Hope this helps.
Charge him by the hour and be safe.  Matt

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Hey Teenswinger!

I have enough track to cut 46' with my WPF 10", but have never used it all.
I have thought about the big stuff, however.   

With mine set up LO-LO,  using four
notched bunks for the logs, I would have the tractor set two  logs up at the time.
From past experience with big logs, you can set them in ten minutes.  Using some
kerf wedge tricks from my chainsaw milling days, the beam can be easily cut with
no log rolling required.  The log spacing is very tricky, because you have to make a
hor. double cut between the two logs, possibly slightly nicking the right hand log
while doing serious double cutting to the left hand log.  (If in doubt, just handle one
log at the time.)  In this scenario with the WPF you could cut two beams in about
45 minutes, including load in of the two logs and load out of the beams.   This would
IF you had very very good, low-taper logs and you were wasting most of the slab material.   
In contrast, if you are trying to cut good boards out of the peripheral wood, that
could add another 90 minutes to each pair of logs.

With the ATS, an hourly charge might be the way to go.

Ditto Matt and Scott about the clear agreement, resetting, and spreader bar.
If you just plan to reset, you can just block and wedge each log, using the tractor's help, then reset around each log.

Phil L.                                         Good luck.  We will need pics.

[TeenSwinger]

We are not sure of the species yet, because the guy has not cut them down  until he finds somebody who could do it.  We were going to have him be responsible for the log handeling.  We are assuming that we will be cutting it at his place since it would be easier to haul the mill then the logs.  He did not say whether or not he wanted the boards off the side and I assume that we would only be getting one beam per log.
Thanks for your responses.  It sounds like charging by the hour would cover alot of bases.
Jacob

[LOGDOG]

Hi Jacob,

   How many feet of track do you currently have? And how many of these beams does he want? My first thought is that if you had to buy extensions for your mill just for this job it may not be worth it. I did that. I had some guys that needed 30 foot long material cut. Well I go ahead and order them and about the time I get my extensions, they go bankrupt! So here I am out several thousand dollars with no recourse holding my you know what in my hand. Not cool!!!

   So here's how I play it now. Learn from my bad experience. If someone wants something special like that, ask for a deposit to at a minimum cover your expenses. In this case, your track extensions and all costs involved with getting them here. That is to say, IF you're buying them specificaly and solely for their job. This way, if this guy gets you out on a limb and then changes his mind (like we know people do) you're not out any of your own money. I'm set up to cut 35 feet long with my ASM and haven't cut anything over 20'.

   I'd also charge by the hour. It's good incentive for him to help move things along. Good luck with the project though. It could be fun if it comes together right. Take lots of pictures.

LOGDOG

[Dan_Shade]

sounds like a fun deal!

deposits can be a funny thing... in my mind, if I give a deposit, I consider it good faith money, and if I screw up, then the deposit is theirs to keep.  Of course if they insist I take it back, then I'll take it.

However, many people would want their deposit back if the deal falls through.... something to consider, it could damage you in the word of mouth areas....

that said, *most* people are reasonable enough to understand that you will do the job, but you have to buy new stuff to do it, and may be willing to pay a non-refundable deposit.

Depending on the situation, a well written contract may be the wise thing to do.

[LOGDOG]

A well written contract is "ALWAYS" the wise thing to do.

LOGDOG

[metalspinner]

I've got a question on the integrity of a 30' beam.  Is the tree he is removing going to make a quality beam?  Make sure you release yourself from liability on this. Don't offer opinions on the strenghth or integrity of this beam as well.
I agree with everyone else's opinions offered.  A written contract on all the things that can go wrong is important.

Most customer's aren't as easy going as I am.

[solodan]

Unless he wants at least 50 or 100 of these beams I would not even bother doing it on my swinger, especially if I had to order more track. I would do it with an Alaskan and a mini mill. One saw in the Alaskan and one in the mini mill to edge. It would be two passes with the Alaskan followed by two with the mini. No turning involved at all, and probably less than 30 minutes a piece(in soft wood). I would charge by the beam or the BF. Each beam is 240 BF, my normal sawing price is $.60/BF, because of the longer then normal length, I would probably double this to $1.20/BF, which well exceeds my hourly rate, and gives me some cushion and/or some room to negotiate. I understand these prices may not hold up in your area, but if you used the same formula you may be better off charging by the B/F. His cost savings  of supplying the logs is the same to him whether you are cutting 40 footers or 8 footers.  So at my rate he would be paying $288/beam/ take it leave it.

[TeenSwinger]

He said he would need 30 or more beams and yes I would have to buy extensions.  I am trying to find out how much they would cost me.  I currently have 20' of track available.
Contract will be a must!
Thanks

[Tom]

Go to Fla_Deadheader's thread about the 40 foot lumber and see how he made his own track.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 I been studyin on it. Tough to do with an ATS. That's why I held out for a WPF. Now, wish I had the wide frame for that Pilon and Ojoche coming up.

  I got some ideas, but, I gotta study the ATS some more, first.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Might have an idea that would not cost a LOT of money. Gotta get a GOOD idea of the diameter of the logs, so you can make the track supports.

  First, ya gotta extend the bars that connect the support bars. Then, get 2--3' pieces of all thread and a nut to fit each one. Need some pipe or tube, (EMT conduit ?) and a couple washers to fit the all thread. This would be welded up to make adjustable supports for the center of each track. Weld the washers on one end of each tube, for the nuts to ride against. Weld a piece of 3/8" bar stock to each nut for a handle. Make a fitting to fit around the "wooden" track and a pad for resting on the ground or a chunk of board. Now, you can adjust the center of the track to be level with the rest of the track.

Check around for good straight 2 X's that you can sandwich together. Might even saw some. Seperate the track sections, and carve the ends of the wooden beams to slide inside the Aluminum tracks. Bolt them like you do the aluminum tracks. Add an aluminum angle for the wheels to run on, on ONE track to match the aluminum runner. Add a square or angle on the other track, and yer in business. It is NOT that difficult of a project. Might add some dog screw down tethers and guy wires on both ends, so the track is steady.

  Now, you can break it down and store the extensions for later use. I would figure the cost of the extensions into the price and you will be surprised how slick this works. Mine we put on the ground, and used 2.5" X 5.5" I-beam. The customer furnished it, and I'm using it to build the bandmill track-frame. 

  All this clear as mud ??   

[LOGDOG]

I'm just curious Jacob ...what is the inside dimension of the tracks? Fla_Deadheader is on to something. I read his post before taking my dogs for a walk. Wanted to think about it before I replied.

Here's what I'm thinking. If this is something you wanted to try, instead of milling some pieces of something to try to make these pieces I would use Plywood. I'd do it the same way as if I were making a laminated header. Plywoods resistence to shear and sag is excellent when compared with regular lumber or beams.

For illustration sake. Let's say that the inside dimension of your existing tracks is the 2.5" x 5.5" that Fla_Deaheader mentioned on his machine. You could set the fence up on your table saw for 5.5", get you some 1/2" Plywood and rip strips 8' long by 5.5" wide. Then sandwich them together with glue in between and through bolts and washers to cinch them up tight. In this case you would need 5 layers of 1/2" plywood to get you there.

Now the one thing you would want to do is stagger your joints in the plywood laminations. Maybe 4' to keep things even and eliminate pieces that are too short. If you wanted to go even further, eliminate the middle layer of Plywood and substitute it with 1/2" sheet steel. That would raise your price a little bit but then no way in heck are those things going to sag. We've done that when building long headers over garage doors and the like. Trust me, you run some bolts through 4 layers of Plywood and that piece of steel and you got a nice beam.

I'm not sure what's inside your rails now. Mine have extrusions that look like three triangles. But if yours are hollow, I'd make the tails on your homemade beams extra long to slide up inside. I'd do the notching on my table saw when the pieces were individual and then assemble them. That way you're assured of close tolerances. The farther up inside your existing rails you go and the tighter the fit, the less likely and able the intersections will be to sag. Not saying they won't but it will help that much more towards preventing it.

When planning for the merge of the top angle rail that your wheels roll on, I would also measure the thickness of the top wall of your existing rails. It may be 1/8". I'd oversize my homemade beam and then notch out that 1/8 on the top of the tenon section (again while in individual layers on the table saw to make it easy). What this will do is give you a straight level take off from your existing rails and angle aluminum and eliminate the need to shim the angle on the new beam to match up.

The great thing about laminating plywood is that it's available in fractions of an inch. So if you're trying to build up to an odd dimension for a purpose like this, you can plan out the laminations with pre-sized thickness.

I think Fla_Deaheaders idea is a great one and definitely do-able. Planned out, I bet you could make a 20' extension with steel center and aluminum angle on top for between $500 and $750 dollars. That's a bargain considering that my 14' extension from the factory cost me about $3400.00.  Just another reason this forum is so great! I'll be curious to see if you give it a go. Keep us posted.

LOGDOG

[Fla._Deadheader]

  LD, I was figuring that the extrusions are identical, just not sure.  I made a short triangle piece of wood, to join the 3 sections of aluminum on my mill. Thru bolted just like the originals.

[LOGDOG]

Do your rails have the criss-cross inside them too Fla_Deadheader? Those could be a little tricky to work around. I guess if I had to, I'd pre-assemble the laminate and just map the criss-cross out on the ends and then tilt the blade on my table saw or better yet bandsaw with a fenceto slot the ends so that they'd slide by the cross members inside the existing rails. Great idea though. If my mill were manual feed I'd be tempted to try it. I've got chains that run through the center of mine though so I'd have to slot my center laminates out. It definetly could be done though.  You've got my wheels turning now.

LOGDOG

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Yep, 3 triangles, more or less.    I did tip the table saw blade, AFTER scribing the wood from a short piece cut on the tablesaw for a pattern.