Fast growing pines?

[Qweaver]

I need to plant a long row (200 yards) of pines to act as a view and road noise blocker.  I'd like to plant trees that are 2 to 3' tall and that will grow quickly.  The area is central W.Va.  I am clearing most of the tall trees from around them but the will be partly shaded during the morning but will have full sun from noon on.
Suggestions appreciated.
Quinton

[Tom]

You may have trouble transplanting pines of that size because of the taproot.  Seedlings from you state nursery will grow almost as fast.

I would also intersperce Southern Red Cedar or Eastern Red Cedar.  They also grow fairly fast but will be denser than the pines.

[Riles]

Leyland cypress seems to be the green screen of choice in the southeast. On the other hand, I've seen some clonal loblolly pines that were 6 feet tall after one year in the field. Your mileage may vary, based on climate.

[maplewoman]

Bamboo is the fastest growing monocotyledon, planted closely together they create a great wind break, fence, trellis etc.
The timber is usable in structual building with enormous success let alone flooring, furniture, fibre, wood pulp, food etc.
Bamboo will not blow over in a cyclone unlike pine and it will not acidify your soil like pine.....
It can also be used as a fodder crop for cattle, a trellis for passionfruit and a pioneer for larger taprooted trees.  This way you can make your fence work for you.
There are so many different varieties so you would have to do some more research and they are also easy to propagate. My choice would be bamboo over pine anyday. Lou
 

[PineNut]

That may be true about bamboo but wait until it takes over the whole area and you want to stop it. The only bamboo I want around my place is artificial bamboo.

[maplewoman]

There are bamboos that spread and there are ones that stay clumped I would suggest that you use a clumping variety. Spreading bamboos are almost illegal to buy because of that problem. 

[Phorester]

In your area for a long term screen with the fewest insect and disease problems and fast growing, choose from these:

Eastern red cedar, white pine, arborvitae,(northern white cedar), Norway spruce, Leyland cypress.  Leyland cypress does seem to have a problem with ice breakage, so if you have a lot of that each winter, it might not be a good choice. Plant more than one species, and 2 or 3 rows if you have that much room.  If something wipes out one species 10 or 20 years down the road, you still have the others to maintain the screen.

I'd recomend staying away from bamboo (sorry, Lou, but it just doesn't do well here for a screen  ) and loblolly pine.  Loblollies grow fast, but make a poor screen because they are so openly branched.  Some people don't like red cedar, but it's a native tree, grows fast, and creates an excellent screen.

[SwampDonkey]

Might try red pine also. We grow alot on old abandoned fields here and they are fast growing. I'm not sure if there are disease problems in your area, like shoot rust. Doesn't seem to have disease or insect problems in my area. It's native range is a bit more north around the Great Lakes, St Lawrence, New England and Maritimes.

[Qweaver]

Thanks for all of the info everyone.  I called the state nursery today and they were a lot of help.  I had no idea that they were so cheap from the state.  They don't supply cedar so I'm ordering Norway Spruce, Douglas Fir,  Scotch Pine and White Pine.  All of these are $26 per hundred for 3 year old and $21 for 2 year old.  I may get some black Locust also.  Those prices include shipping.  The forester that I talked with said that I should plan to plant around mid to late Feb. depending on the weather. 
I guess I need to start reading up on the subject.  Any suggestions for reading material?
Quinton

[SwampDonkey]

That is real cheap. Most commercial nurseries charge $160/th for pines and $150/th for spruce here. Hardwood are usually double that or more. Take the deal and run.  If they do as good a job as our government run nursery than you'll be getting a very good planting stock.

[Phorester]

Quinton, do some studying up on the Doug fir and Scotch pine.  See if any are growing in your area and see how they are doing.  Talk to foresters in your area, not only the Nursery forester. I don't think I'm too far from you either geographically or as far as climate, and those species dont' do well here for long term.  They do well for Christmas trees here, but of course these are cut before they hit 15 or so years of age.

Doug. fir and especially Scotch pine get all kinds of insect and disease problems (since they are way out of their natural range), and start crapping out around 20 years old or younger. Planting survival is lower too.  They sorta opengrown, and don't usually make a good screen either.

What elevation are you, and what's your average annual rainfall?

[Pullinchips]

I also would not touch bamboo if it is not already on your place and would spray any i say with chopper, or some double strength round up variate.  I would say plant leyland cypress as a dnse fast growing first choice eastern Red cedar, or white pine as a second, and virginia pine as a last resort if you can stand the nasty looking tree.  If you want some real quich untill your leylands grow up or cedars grow up you could pland some 2nd generation improved lobs for height growth.  True as an older tree they are a poor screen but as a tree under maybe 10 years in an open grown situation they will retain lower limbs and form a fairly dense screen untill those leylands catch up and are tall enough.  They probalbly will be tall enough in 6 or less years but the lob should be 10+ feet easily by the end of the 3rd growing season around there.  Then you can cut down the lobs or leave themn for a diverse look.

-Nate

[Raider Bill]

Howdy gents! Been lurking around for a bit thought I would finally register.
I have 69 acres of old BO-Water land in TN. It was replanted with some kind of pine. I'm told it's Larch? I figure they either planted it for it's fast growing properties or it was cheap at the time. The newest was planted in 94. What's it good for any ideas?

[Ianab]

Hi Bill.

Western Larch (Tamarack) is one of the heavier and harder softwoods. The timber can be used for general construction, trim and even flooring. Similar properties to douglas fir.

If you have some pictures of the trees and some closeups of the leaves then someone will be able to confirm what they are for you.

Oh, and welcome to the forum 

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Bowater planted a lot of 2 needle pine in that area. Most likely short leaf pine in your area and long leaf pine further south and east. They have been hammered by southern pine beetle. I was visiting with a friend who was working with V-tech and putting in beetle survey plots. The company was trying to harvest the pine ahead of the beetles and most of the pine was younger than 30 years old. I know Bowater had (has) a mill near Knoxville. I think that was the area they had traffic troubles from the smog from the mill that hovered over the highway. They had to raise the stacks. Bowater uses(d) the pine for pulp. I don't think there would be enough rainfall and ground moisture for tamarack in your area. Tamarack grows twice as fast as spruce and does well on wet organic soils also.

[Raider Bill]

I've got a few pix, nothing close up. How do I upload?

[SwampDonkey]

Check out the 'Behind the Forum' Board for optimizing and uploading instructions.

cheers 

[Qweaver]

I put my order in this morning.  200 Norway Spruce, 200 douglas Fir and 100 Japanese Larch all for delivery late Feb.  Would digging shallow holes with the post hole digger on the tractor be a reasonable way to plant them?  That would insure soft soil for the roots to start in.  I'd like to maximize survival rate.
Phorester, thanks for the suggestions.  Our elevation is about 1400'.  I'm not sure of annual rainfall.   We have many mature Norway Spruce on the  property as well as other pines but none where I want the barrier.
Quinton

[Phorester]

Good luck with the trees.  Larch is a decidious conifer, so it will not provide a screen in the winter.  They will need to be planted where a screen is not needed.

We have had a tremendous problem in the northern 1/3 of Virginia with voles in the last few years.  Voles pay no attention to political boundaries like State lines , so they may also be rampant in your locality since you are not too far from me. I have gone to recommending that any tree planting in an established field be preceeded by plowing and disking to break up the grass sod, so the voles will not want to live in the area where the trees are planted.  Using a posthole digger is the least amount of prep.  I'd recommend.   If voles have become a problem in your area (check with extension agents or foresters who do tree planting in open fields) You might be better off to plow and disk a strip 6 to 8 feet wide where you want to plant trees for a screen.

[SwampDonkey]

Both Japanese larch and European larch have been very successful here. I've seen plantations of them and they grow even straighter than our native tamarack. Larch sawflies have been bad here that last 5 years or so. Many tamarack stands have been hard hit. I think the larch bark beetle moves in when the sawflies weaken the trees. Darn sapsuckers seem to hit my Japanese larch lawn tree. I gotta cut it down now, branches dying and sap oozing out. 

[Qweaver]

If voles have become a problem in your area (check with extension agents or foresters who do tree planting in open fields) You might be better off to plow and disk a strip 6 to 8 feet wide where you want to plant trees for a screen.

All Right!  Now I can truthfully say to Sarah, "Well Honey, looks like I'm just going to have to buy that 3 point hitch rotory tiller after all".
Should I till just before planting or is this something that I can do weeks before?

Quinton

[Phorester]

Before the end of the year might be the best time, before the ground freezes.  Certainly a few weeks before planting the trees.  You want the ground to settle at least 3 - 4 weeks after plowing to close up all the little air pockets so you won't plant the tree roots in one. 

We have a problem on shale soils in my area, where they are frozen, then too soft to plow in early spring before tree planting.  When they get solid enough to support a tractor, it's usually too late to give them time to settle as described above before we're out of tree planting season. (Too hot & too dry for good tree survival).  So I'd say plow now. Yes, the soil is exposed to erosion over the winter, but you are choosing between two bad choices, erosion or voles wiping out the seedlings. Plowing now is the best choice of the worst. And if you plow up just a 8 or 10 foot wide strip, shouldn't be too much erosion.

But to break up a decades old fescue sod, you need a regular farm plow, followed by the rotary tiller.  I don't think the tiller by itself will break up this extremely thick and tough sod.

[Tom]

Just a note about 3 point hitch tillers.   They are really rough on a tractor.  I always wanted one and finally got one.  Then I found that I was better off with a plow and leveling harrow.  The roto-tiller does OK in pre-prepared seed beds, but, put it in the ground in a common garden plot and it will buck and push the tractor everytime it hits a stick, root or stone.  The seals on the power takeoff won't withstand as much of this punishment as you might think.  It is also hard on clutchs.  The rototiller itself will even be damaged if the ground is tough enough. 

What is tough enough?  Ground that hasn't been broken.  They don't like grass, roots, rocks, hardpan, or anything else in the soil where the tines might stand a chance of climbing up rather than penetrating.

If I had no equipment, I would consider a plow and harrow first.

[beenthere]

That is interesting to hear, Tom.

I have on several occasions rented a 60" Deere tiller, for the 3pt on my 31HP Deere when I want black fill dirt. I go to the good black dirt places in my fields that are in sod, and till through it a couple times to get about 6-7" deep, then scoop up the tilled dirt to dump and spread where I want to fill in. Then I seed it down. With the tilled grass roots already in the dirt, new grass comes quickly.

Didn't get the impression that the tiller was getting beat up nor that the tractor was getting beat up. All in all, it ran pretty smoothly. And I do have rocks and small roots in some places. Was considering getting my own tiller (50" Deere) to make some food plots and to level places in an old field where the head lands and furrows were not disked down level.

I need to check into how tough I might be on the equipment. Don't need any extra expenses for repairing things. I do have hydrostatic, and not gears, so the clutch is not a problem.

Thanks for the heads-up.  I do have a one-bottom plow that I could break the sod up ahead of the tiller, but seemed the single attachment did the job.

[Qweaver]

Thanks for the info Phorester.  I'm mainly clearing the area where I'm going to plant of large and small trees.  So I have to get that done before I can plow. This area was just covered with small "ironwood" that I have cut and pulled out the roots.  By the time I get the poplar roots out it should plow fairly easily.  With the way this land lies, erosion will not be a problem.
My uncle had an undergrad degree in forestry and was an entomologist at WVU and we had planted most of this 3 acres with Christmas* tree pines back in the late 50s and they did really well.  We didn't do much soil prep then but I think we just over planted and did not worry so much about survival rate.  We have some really beautiful mature trees from the ones that did not get harvested foe Christmas* trees.  But for this planting, I'd like these trees to really thrive.  

Tom, thanks for the heads-up on the tiller.  Cousin Arthur has a plow and disk for his 8N Ford so I guess I'll try that.  The areas that I'm working-up are just filled with roots as I explained above.  You've saved me some real bucks and maybe a lot of frustration. I love this forum  

[SwampDonkey]

2 furrow plow in the fall, space strips 6-7 feet, plant in spring. If you plow and plant in spring, make sure you roll the sod or same problems Phorester mentioned. Put the tree beside the hinge of sod. Better success than spraying alone. Plant 100's of acres of old fields and this was the most success. We also used a Kula that scalped the ground behind the tractor.

[Furby]

Tom and Beenthere,
What direction do the tines rotate on those tillers?
I know the walk behind tillers that have the tines running forward, as if they were a wheel, tend to be hard to handle and sound a lot like Tom described.
The ones where the tines rotate "backwards" are pretty nice and easy to use.
Was just wondering if the rotation was different one the ones you have both used.

[beenthere]

Tines (L-shaped cutters) come over the top forward, and throw out the bottom to the rear. Tractor holds the tiller in position. Some dirt comes over the top. Moving slow, with sharp cutters, chewing up good as it moves along works for me.

 Pics of some 3pt tillers

[tonich]

With the way this land lies, erosion will not be a problem.

Hi,
If you try to ensure best survival rate for the seedlings, then you shouldn’t bother for the erosion. The worst it could be - a small rate sheet erosion, which is easily self recovered afterwards.
I’m curious how you are intended to mix the three species – what kind of planting pattern?

Cheers

PS. Best regards to everyone here! 

[Qweaver]

Well, things have changed.  We're in Texas with Sarah laid up with a broken leg.  We won't get back to W.Va. until the 1st of February at the earliest.  The trees will be there mid to late Feb. and I will not be able to work up the ground until I get back there.  Should I call the nursery and see if they will ship the trees later?  I may try to get one of my cousins to work-up the soil now, which will give it about 4 to 6 weeks before we plant.  Will planting in March be OK? 
Quinton

[Phorester]

Sorry to hear about the broken leg.  I found out the hard way that any broken bones below your waist really inhibit what you can do.  Hope she is doing well.

If it is a definite that your cousin  can get it plowed and disked now, then I'd say do it and plant at your orginal schedule.  March planting would also be fine if you can do the preperation after you get back.

But if you don't think the plowing and disking can be done in time, I'd not plant this year.  Good site preperation is vital to get a new forest to survive and grow.  I've seen too many landowners lose their cost of trees and planting when they couldn't get the preperation done right or on time.  Then they have to do it all over the following year.

[SwampDonkey]

Get them in the ground as early as possible and don't delay into the summer. Survival goes down with the hot season and water deficit in the soil. I always planted my trees as soon as the frost was gone in the soil and sometimes even a little frost down deep. I've seen a lot of land owners that won't prepare their site and try to plant in July with bad results. 

[Phorester]

Our planting season here is late February through April. I like to have all trees in the ground by mid-April, but we still get adequate survival until the end of April, just not as good as earlier in the month.  Summer and fall planting is out for us. No survival at all.  Bare rooted seedlings aren't available from our State nurseries in summer or fall anyway. But some landowners have ordered them from private nurseries, to their dismay when they don't survive. 

[Qweaver]

I just got off of the phone with the WV nursery forester and have moved my delivery date to March 13.  This should give me plenty of time to get the soil prepped...unless Sarah falls and breaks anything else.     I'm sure gonna miss her help when I start planting.  Is there a preferred way to plant.  When my uncle and I planted trees years ago,  we used a spade to make a tapered hole, dropped them in and used the spade to close the hole.  It worked but I'm betting there is a better way.
The people at the state nursery are really friendly and helpful.  A real rarity with government employees these days.
Quinton

[SwampDonkey]

Are they container stock? Use a dibble bare with a step on the dibble head so you don't injure your hand/wrist. If they are bare root, a shovel is best and don't rock the shovel forward and back as that creates an air pocket around the roots. Then they dry out and die.

[Phorester]

Quinton, contact your State Service Forester who covers your county.  Your nursery contact should be able to tell you how to contact him/her. They may be called county forester, area forester, district forester, something like that.  They may have a tree planting machine that you can rent.  These are pulled behind a farm tractor and are the easiest way to plant long rows of trees or larger numbers of trees.

I have one that I rent to County landowners every spring.  The landowners supply the tractor and two workers, one for driving the tractor one to ride the machine.  A third is better, to help resupply the machine and the beer, pick up dropped trees, pack seedlings that for some reason didn't get packed right by the machine, etc., but 2 can do it.  Then they both go back over the day's planting to make sure the trees are right. 

[Qweaver]

Just to update,  We have planted about 400 of the 500 trees.  I hilled the remainder into a bed and will try to use them in the fall  to replace other that do not make it through the summer.  We did not get the last of them in the ground before they started showing new growth and they looked a little stressed but it looks like most of them are going to make it OK.  The trees that we got planted within a week of their arrival are all doing well.  We hand planted by digging a hole with the tractor and auger and lots of water.  That was very time consuming but we look like having a high survival rate. The dry weather has the ground showing cracks so we have been pumping pond water and giving each tree a good drink every-other day.  Next comes the deer fence.
Quinton